How religion has become a big financial enterprise with members contributing hundreds of millions in tithes and offerings

[GandalfTheWise]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Before we discuss the situation in Kenya let me ask you about this situation in America :

Kenneth Copeland mentioned that he has rcvd over USD 1,3 BILLION (6 years ago) Listen for yourself, type at youtube page this wording: Kenneth Copeland boasts he is a billionaire https://www.pmnewsnigeria.com/2019/06/02/u-s-pastor-under-scrutiny-for-using-3-private-jets/

My question is : Could Copeland gather such a massive amount of money if people are to donate honestly without fear according to their willingness as Paul said it 2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. How much we can actually build humanity with the money he spent for the private jets ? God told us to feed the poor Lazarus but instead the church people is feeding a Billionaire life style pastor how about the forgotten Lazarus ? he remains forgotten because Jesus has said it. Many are proclaiming the threat of devouring grasshopper for those who do not pay tithe which create fear and force people to tithe out of fear. In the book of Malachi God actually spoke about tithe to the Hebrew in Israel not to the New Testament church established by Jesus Christ:  Many rich churches are building Christian schools from their tithe but thats an expensive Christian schools built for profit not for the poor. Its just another way to make money by the church. https://www.nairaland.com/1472237/deception-malachi-3-10-11-devourer

[EDIT: reformatted for space]

The OP started with an article about Kenya and direct comments about churches in Kenya.    I was just fact checking if it was a valid example.   I also call into question the wisdom of using images such as the one in the OP.  The proximity of that image with an initial article about churches in Kenya along with comments about churches in Kenya is basically an accusation against the churches mentioned in the article that they are wolves in sheeps clothing.  I simply dislike posts and arguments that amount to mud throwing without worrying if the accusations are accurate.  They cause loss of credibility and make it difficult for people to listen to what the real topic is.  In addition, propagating unfounded accusations against other Christians is simply unacceptable behavior.

This latest post again carries inadequately researched and overly broad accusations.  "Many rich churches are building Christian schools from their tithe but thats an expensive Christian schools built for profit not for the poor. Its just another way to make money by the church."  I've known people involved in Christian schools in the US first hand.  Each one I know details about is a financially struggling operation with underpaid teachers and overstretched parents.  These are not making money for churches but are generally a drain.  The people supporting them are zealous in their belief of raising and educating children in a Christian environment and are sacrificing for it.  The information I'm familiar with in the US is that financial struggles are common in Christian education and that Christian schools are a financial drain on churches rather than being profit centers.  There are perhaps a few that fit the "elite" category that attract wealthy parents that can turn a profit, but my sense of things is that few Christian schools fit that category.

I think trying to score argument points via a string of accusations is counterproductive.  Pointing out abuses of the tithe system is not biblical proof against tithing.  It is pointing out people who shouldn't be in ministry.  Pointing the finger at a broad range of ministries without proof of abuse and basically calling them greedy wolves is not biblical proof against tithing, it is potentially bringing false accusations against solid Christians and ministries.  Each time an accusation is made without fact-checking and doing solid research to back it up, it distracts from the main point, which is (as far as I can tell):  Does the Bible teach Christians should tithe?  Even if a few accusations can be found which are well-founded, that doesn't prove the main point.

Overall, I tend to agree with the points being made.  I see the tithe as a part of the Law for Israel and not specifically for the church.    I see NT teaching on giving being that giving is simply one part of a lifestyle of stewardship.  I don't believe in a curse being put on Christians financially for not giving enough but rather a possible loss of blessing and a missing of the joy of ministry.  I believe that financial giving is a type of spiritual ministry in which some Christians are more gifted than others.   I believe that most giving should usually be done locally rather than remotely (other than supporting missionary type of work or specific ministries).   I don't believe fear based or manipulative tactics should be used to "encourage" giving.  

I just think the best way to make these points is via clear exposition of various Bible verses accompanied by a clear picture of what healthy biblical Christian giving looks like both from the individual perspective and the church perspective and how it fits into our lives and churches.

[Jostler]

i suspect if pastors taught giving as a result  of a personal relationship that  hears what He wants given, to whom and how much,  a lot of churches just might be financially better off than they are now.   I seriously  doubt very  many would give just 10%

[BibleStudent100]

Prosperity theology, the view that fosters that as one becomes "more spiritual," the more one becomes financially successful; I know this is a simplification of the views behind this big-time TV evangelical mission outreach.  Still, when I look at the life-style of the leaders of these types of religions, I wonder how that high income would dove-tail with Jesus' view about "keeping your eye simple?"  (Matthew 6:22).

 

 

[R. Hartono]

3 hours ago, Worship Warriors said:

Jesus said to the young rich ruler, go and sell everything that you have and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven.

You're right, Jesus didnt ask that rich man to give his money to the church but to the poor.

2 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

 I simply dislike posts and arguments that amount to mud throwing without worrying if the accusations are accurate.

This latest post again carries inadequately researched and overly broad accusations. 

How bout that Kenneth Copeland Ministry ? Did their member give to the poor or to Copeland ? that  US 1,3 Billion accumulated in his bank account. Who would help the poor Lazarus then ? Jesus has entrusted the poor to the church

Matthew 26:11 The poor you will always have with you

How would the poor Lazarus be relieved if these pastors keep the money for themselves ?

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/net-worth-richest-pastors-will-blow-your-mind.html/

The early church of the apostles distributed their money according to the need of each believers so nobody was lacked, did these rich pastors do so ?

Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

All believers are called the body of Christ, if one body claims to hv the rights to rcv tithes so do the others in church.

[pg4Him]

God loves a cheerful giver, and now you better give more than 10% if you know what’s good for you. Sucks all the cheer right out of that verse. Paul said those words to remind people they didn’t have to stretch themselves to give what they couldn’t afford, and they shouldn’t let it become a source of friction. He told them to give whatever they could cheerfully part with. Yet somehow in the modern church this statement is used as an ironic guilt bomb.

[Heybro]

In my understanding, we need not just focus on the finances when we are looking at tithing. We need to invest our time and that which God, by the power of His Spirit, has invested in us. On this very WCF, is an instance of us "sowing into The Kingdom." There are increasing amount of "newbies" coming onto the forum who are looking for answers to their questions, are we going to help them understand more of what it means to be a christian in these days in which we live, or are we going to say, "be warmed, be filled, and have a nice day." My thoughts, just saying, hope this is helpful, God bless.

[R. Hartono]

18 minutes ago, pg4Him said:

God loves a cheerful giver, and now you better give more than 10% if you know what’s good for you. Sucks all the cheer right out of that verse. Paul said those words to remind people they didn’t have to stretch themselves to give what they couldn’t afford, and they shouldn’t let it become a source of friction. He told them to give whatever they could cheerfully part with. Yet somehow in the modern church this statement is used as an ironic guilt bomb.

Paul directed the churches to PUT SOMETHING ASIDE AS HE MAY PROSPER (as he may be able) even not to himself but for the church in Jerusalem.

First Corinthians 16:1-3 “Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.”

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/net-worth-richest-pastors-will-blow-your-mind.html/

The early church of the apostles distributed their money according to the need of each believers so nobody was lacked, did these rich pastors do so ?

Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by R. Hartono

[pg4Him]

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. — 2 Corinthians‬ ‭9:7‬

Churches that confiscate 10% of my income whether or not I can afford it are making me give of necessity. Never on this thread have I said we shouldn’t give. Only that churches are demanding what people really can’t afford so they can spend it on frivolous programs.

[pg4Him]

Why didn’t Paul mention tithes in his letters to Corinth? Why no mention they should already be paying 10%? Why no reminder that an offering is on top of tithes? 

[R. Hartono]

2 minutes ago, pg4Him said:

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. — 2 Corinthians‬ ‭9:7‬

Churches that confiscate 10% of my income whether or not I can afford it are making me give of necessity. Never on this thread have I said we shouldn’t give. Only that churches are demanding what people really can’t afford so they can spend it on frivolous programs.

You're right Bro. How could people become a cheerful giver if they must give according to a percentage ?

 

1 minute ago, pg4Him said:

Why didn’t Paul mention tithes in his letters to Corinth? Why no mention they should already be paying 10%? Why no reminder that an offering is on top of tithes? 

If the early church of the apostles ever asked the church to pay tithe and the Jews in Jerusalem discover it, they will be arrested by the Jews because tithe should be given to the Levit. They shall be finished there. Its against the Law of Torah for other entities to demand tithe from the Hebrew.