The Kingdom Of Heaven Parables. (Matt 13.)

[OldCoot]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 13:45-46 (KJV)

45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, SEEKING goodly pearls: 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it."

This parable is not about the pearl; it's about the MERCHANT! In this particular case, we are not told what the pearl represents (if anything); the parable is not about the nouns as much as it's about the VERBS!

I would disagree.  It is a parable of the church.

Oysters are  non kosher  in Hebrew culture.  But it is thru them that we get pearls.  And how is a pearl started... by introducing an irritant into the oyster.   Then the pearl grows  by the oyster piling on an accretion over time covering the grain of sand or whatever  that started  the irritant.

Later,  the pearl is removed and it becomes an item of adornment.

The church  is predominantly  gentile.... non  kosher.  It started small, as an irritant in the world.   It grows in the world like a pearl in the oyster.    Later, the church (pearl) is removed and becomes an item of adornment for the Messiah.   

The parable of the  pearl is a magnificent imagery of the church and the Messiah.  The merchant in the parable is the Messiah.   The Messiah gave all  to redeem the church (pearl) to Himself.

[Retrobyter]

34 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

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Yeshua`s parables are often misread, but each parable was to make a particular point. The elements used in one parable shouldn't bleed over into another parable, unless Yeshua` Himself made the connection.

It is using the hermeneutics principal of Law of First Mention combined with the principle of Expositional Constancy.  

Birds in scripture mostly are not seen as a good thing.  For instance when Abraham cut up the animals at the instruction of the Lord to make the covenant.   Abraham had to drive the birds away.

Shalom, OldCoot.

Sorry, but this "Law of First Mention" is too allegorical for my taste. It's more a possible interpretation, but it is not a hard and fast "Law!" And, this concept of "Expositional Constancy" smacks of a theological assertion that doesn't have support from the Scriptures.

Furthermore, you're forgetting the birds that were USED in Avraham's B'rit ("In-cutting" or covenant).

Genesis 15:8-11 (KJV)

8 And he said,

"Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?"

9 And he said unto him,

"Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon."

10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

Not all the birds involved were bad!

34 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

The scripture makes the connection.  It is reasonable to assume that since Yeshua was speaking to a Hebrew audience and He had already associated the birds in the previous parable of the Sower with the evil ones. He expected them to make the connection also.  We tend to get things all goofed up when we look at scripture from our preconceived western mindset.

Sorry, but Hebrew thinking doesn't presume to make such connections that are unwarranted! Someone with a very active imagination might make such connections, but a "Hebrew audience" would know enough to understand a parable is meant to point out a particular truism, not establish a permanent connection!

34 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

But what is going on there....

Matthew 13:33 (NKJV) Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

A woman is hiding leaven in 3 measures of meal.  Since the day of Abraham meeting with the Lord at Mamre, 3 measures of meal was considered the fellowship offering in both Hebrew and Arab cultures.  It was the fellowship offering at the temple and was to be unleavened.   To hide leaven in that is a capital crime in the temple days.

Well, the word "measure" in Genesis 18:6 is the Hebrew word "c'aah," and according to Brown-Driver-Briggs, "On size of se'ah [c'aah] = 1/3 ephah, = 12.148 litres (= 10.696 qts.)"

The word "measure" in Matthew 13:33 is the Greek word "saton," which is indeed the same as the Hebrew word "c'aah," but you are mistaken about it being "considered the fellowship offering at the temple!" It's just a FELLOWSHIP offering! That's why Sarah was preparing it for the men who came to Avraham's tents! She was preparing a MEAL FOR VISITING STRANGERS, which is typical hospitality among the Bedouins!

34 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

 And a woman doing it, it reminded me of the Jezebel references in ancient Israel and in the letter to the church at Thyatira in Revelation.  Both references talking of introducing corruption into things.

THIS is a TERRIBLE assumption! My wife makes challah (egg bread) for the holiday parties! Guess what. She uses LEAVEN (YEAST) in that bread! Does that make her a "Jezebel?!" (You'd BETTER say no!)

34 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

And Yeshua associates leaven with sin in the form of pride and error in .....

Matthew 16:6 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to them, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees"

Yes, this is the ONLY time in Yeshua`s history where He made that connection (Matthew 16; Mark 8; and Luke 12)! And, it didn't represent "association with sin in the form of pride and error!" It represent the GROWTH of their false teachings!

The usage of leaven in 1 Corinthians 5 is talking about the acceptance of incest within the congregation; it was the ACCEPTANCE that was likened to the leaven in the Passover bread (matsah)! It's rather like the ACCEPTANCE of LGBTQ "lifestyles" and gender confusion in today's society! We say it's like a CANCER that grows the longer it's ignored!

34 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

The kingdom of heaven arrives on earth when Messiah takes control and rules for 1000 years.  During that time, people will be born that many will not be so inclined to favor the rule of Messiah over them.  And later, Satan is able to foment one last rebellion on the earth when he is released at the end of the 1000 years.  To foment a major rebellion, then discontent and a desire to throw off the rule of Messiah had to have grown throughout the kingdom over that 1000 years.

Here, I agree with you.

34 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

The pattern is there.  So I am not convince that you are right that I am reading the parables wrong.  I really hadn't delved into this that much until I listened to an analysis from a Messianic Jew, Albert Israeli, on the topic many years ago and started looking at the texts in light of the rest of scripture.

It doesn't matter; no matter what the denomination or the oganization one claims, they can STILL make allegorical mistakes, especially when one says, "This means that."

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

I would disagree.  It is a parable of the church.

Oysters are  non kosher  in Hebrew culture.  But it is thru them that we get pearls.  And how is a pearl started... by introducing an irritant into the oyster.   Then the pearl grows  by the oyster piling on an accretion over time covering the grain of sand or whatever  that started  the irritant.

Later,  the pearl is removed and it becomes an item of adornment.

The church  is predominantly  gentile.... non  kosher.  It started small, as an irritant in the world.   It grows in the world like a pearl in the oyster.    Later, the church (pearl) is removed and becomes an item of adornment for the Messiah.   

The parable of the  pearl is a magnificent imagery of the church and the Messiah.  The merchant in the parable is the Messiah.   The Messiah gave all  to redeem the church (pearl) to Himself.

Shalom, OldCoot.

Again, just FAR TOO MUCH ALLEGORY!!! Keep to the simple, normal, historical-grammatical interpretation (that many call the "literal interpretation") of the Scriptures! "Oysters are not kosher." WHO CARES?! The merchant isn't EATING them! He's collecting them as a jewel! It's not "imagery of the church"; it's about YESHUA` IN HIS ROLE AS A WISE KING, of greater caliber than that of Shlomoh!

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

THIS is a TERRIBLE assumption! My wife makes challah (egg bread) for the holiday parties! Guess what. She uses LEAVEN (YEAST) in that bread! Does that make her a "Jezebel?!" (You'd BETTER say no!)

Now you are getting ridiculous.   Is what your wife makes the 3 measures of meal of the fellowship offering for the temple?  hardly.  And it wouldn't mean anything anyway as there is no temple to offer it at.  But when the temple was around, 3 measures  of meal was the fellowship offering and if it was found out that the one offering it introduced leaven into it, that was a very serious violation.  Ask any Rabbinical scholar.  Why is it that at Passover, the father of the house will make sure all leaven is out of the house?  And what does he say when he finds the little bit of leaven that had been strategically hidden, usually by a child as a teaching moment?  As he brushes the leaven into the cloth  for it to be disposed of (usually burned), he states about revealing sin that had been hidden in  his home and removing  it from the household.  Leaven is almost always associated with sin and corruption.

But it still stands.  Jezebel was the one that really introduced corruption, baal worship, and other nonsense into Israel.  It is the name referenced in Revelation  in the letter to Thyatira.   In scripture, in tradition, in Rabbinical scholarship, in the Qumran scrolls, in most every  theological college, Jezebel is associated with corruption.  And that is how the name is used in Revelation.    It is not unreasonable to associate the "woman" introducing leaven into 3 measure of meal (fellowship offering) is introducing corruption into the kingdom in like manner as in Israel and in Thyatira.

And it is that corruption that grows in the kingdom over the 1000 year rule of Messiah, that when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment one more final major rebellion against Messiah.  Corruption and sin has permeated the entire kingdom.  Revelation 20 / Psalms 2.  It also explains why Yeshua has to rule with a rod of iron.  That implies He will lay the heavy hand down on those who get out of line in the kingdom.  In Zechariah 14, it states that during that time of the Messianic Kingdom, those that do not follow the requirement of observing the Feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land.  Does that sound like some sort of perfect kumbaya let's all hold hands and celebrate thing going on in the kingdom?

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by OldCoot
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[missmuffet]

On 8/27/2019 at 5:48 PM, Marilyn C said:

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN PARABLES. (Matt. 13)

There are many `Kingdom of Heaven` parables, however I will just comment on the Matthew 13 ones here. I`ll do each parable in a separate box, as you may want to comment on a specific one.

In this passage, Matthew 13 we see the Lord talking to the people of Israel concerning the promise of God for rulership through them as a nation over the nations of the world. The `kingdom of heaven,` is the rulership from heaven through Israel. Daniel spoke of this time - `the God of heaven will set up a kingdom,` (Dan. 2: 44) This is shortened to `the kingdom (rule) of heaven.`

 

This will be in the millennium when God will rule through Israel over the nations. This is the rulership, (kingdom) that Israel was promised and was looking forward to. Jesus used parables to remind Israel of God`s promises. All the parables point to the type of rulership God will set up and who will be there.

 

You are posting too many parables. The parables of the Kingdom of heaven refers to the nature of yeast which is to grow and change what it comes in contact with. When we accept Christ His grace grows in our heart and changes us from the inside out. 

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You are posting too many parables. The parables of the Kingdom of heaven refers to the nature of yeast which is to grow and change what it comes in contact with. When we accept Christ His grace grows in our heart and changes us from the inside out. 

That sounds good until one looks at how the bible views leaven (yeast).  And leaven usually has a negative connotation.  There could be a reference, but I have never seen one in scripture that shows leaven in a  good light.  To all of a sudden make it look like a great thing to be valued when the rest of the bible puts a negative spin on it really violates sound scripture hermeneutics.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Now you are getting ridiculous.   Is what your wife makes the 3 measures of meal of the fellowship offering for the temple?  hardly.  And it wouldn't mean anything anyway as there is no temple to offer it at.  But when the temple was around, 3 measures  of meal was the fellowship offering and if it was found out that the one offering it introduced leaven into it, that was a very serious violation.  Ask any Rabbinical scholar.  

Shalom, OldCoot.

Sorry, but you're putting too much detail into this simple statement of "3 measures of dough!" Yeshua` never said ANYTHING about the "fellowship offering for the temple!" You're putting words in His mouth! Furthermore, the temple wasn't around in Avraham's and Sarah's day, either!

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Why is it that at Passover, the father of the house will make sure all leaven is out of the house?  And what does he say when he finds the little bit of leaven that had been strategically hidden, usually by a child as a teaching moment?  As he brushes the leaven into the cloth  for it to be disposed of (usually burned), he states about revealing sin that had been hidden in  his home and removing  it from the household.  Leaven is almost always associated with sin and corruption.

Because it's PESACH! "PASSOVER!" That's the season when leaven was forbidden by God in memory of the bread dough that the children of Israel had to bake and pack in a hurry for their Exodus with no time for leaven or waiting for the dough to rise!

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But it still stands.  Jezebel was the one that really introduced corruption, baal worship, and other nonsense into Israel.  It is the name referenced in Revelation  in the letter to Thyatira.   In scripture, in tradition, in Rabbinical scholarship, in the Qumran scrolls, in most every  theological college, Jezebel is associated with corruption.  And that is how the name is used in Revelation. It is not unreasonable to associate the "woman" introducing leaven into 3 measure of meal (fellowship offering) is introducing corruption into the kingdom in like manner as in Israel and in Thyatira.

It is when we're talking about one of Yeshua`s parables back during His lifetime during the First Advent! All he said was that it was a woman! He didn't say it was IzeVel or Jezebel! Again, you're reading FAR TOO MUCH into what He was talking about! The women were the ones who USUALLY made the bread each morning!

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And it is that corruption that grows in the kingdom over the 1000 year rule of Messiah, that when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment one more final major rebellion against Messiah.  Corruption and sin has permeated the entire kingdom.  Revelation 20 / Psalms 2.

In a sense, I agree with you on what to expect within His Kingdom; however, He's already given the parable of the wheat and the tares for that!

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It also explains why He has to rule with a rod of iron.  That implies He will lay the heavy hand down on those who get out of line in the kingdom.  In Zechariah 14, it states that during that time of the Messianic Kingdom, those that do not follow the requirement of observing the Feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land.  Does that sound like some sort of perfect kumbaya let's all hold hands and celebrate thing going on in the kingdom?

On this issue, you're "preaching to the choir," bro'. I'm a HUGE advocate of the fact that the Millennium won't be "some sort of perfect kumbaya!" However, you're STILL reading too much into this simple parable.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You are posting too many parables. The parables of the Kingdom of heaven refers to the nature of yeast which is to grow and change what it comes in contact with. When we accept Christ His grace grows in our heart and changes us from the inside out. 

Shalom, missmuffet.

No, sorry, sis. This is NOT what Yeshua` was talking about. He wasn't talking about the now; He was talking about His future KINGDOM, which He will begin when He returns IN THE FLESH!

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

that sounds good until one looks at how the bible views leaven (yeast).  And leaven usually has a negative connotation.

 

Shalom, OldCoot.

Key word: "USUALLY!" But, not in THIS context! He SPECIFICALLY said, "The Kingdom of heaven (from the sky) is like unto leaven!"