Will God give seven days warning before the Rapture as He warned Noah ?

[iamlamad]

31 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Will let this stand as the last comment, But will say that the whole Calvinism Arminianism debate is virtually nullified when you differentiate between the faithful and the saints. This works on the whole free will debate as well. Conviction (Hearing, Romans 10:17) comes By God, Decision to receive His Gift comes from Human will, Election comes from God, Who decides if we are worthy to be sent (Romans 10:15). Someone can be sent and fall from that election but are still saved (1 cor. 5;5) Anyone who has the earnest of the Holy Ghost in them, cannot Lose that (2 Cor. 5:1-5) Whether we are found naked or clothed. Getting Philosophical here, Virtue is having the choice to do good or Evil, and choosing to do the good. Put another way, A gift is not received freely if it is forced upon someone by the point of a sword. And A gift is not a free gift if it can be taken away. 

Decision to receive His Gift comes from Human will,   This is truth. I think God values the human will.

I solved this during the night: if someone WILLS to leave, God will honor their will. It all comes down to what God sees in the human heart.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I solved this during the night: if someone WILLS to leave, God will honor their will. It all comes down to what God sees in the human heart.

Why someone who has tasted the Good things of God Would WILL to leave God is beyond me.... But nonetheless this option is there.... The Prodigal son Left the will of his Father, but then returned, and the father received him back as a son.... Was the Son still a Son when he was a prodigal? 

[Billiards Ball]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I was hoping we could get more personal: that is, take a scripture (at a time) and wring out of what each of us sees. But if you wish to decline, feel free. 

I end up wondering: you have said over and over you are prewrath, you have made a very few statements to back up what you believe, but then say "we agree" on almost everything!  Perhaps you are just being "nice!"

Truthfully, I have never found even one hint of chiastic writing in Revelation. That is just another theory from someone that does not understand the book. John started where he was, around 95 AD, and continues from that point in time straight through the church age, then through the day of the Lord and 70th week, then through the 1000 year reign of Christ, and on into a new heaven and earth, and on into eternity.  It is writing in perfect order, with the exception of parenthesis. Of course there is a few verses of prophecy - foretelling events to come very soon, but not right at the moment the prophecy is given.

Not "nice" but actually, nice. We agree on many things, the timing of the seals and bowls is the primary difference as it is between most people touching pretrib and prewrath.

I didn't say Revelation is chiastic in structure. I said it's a chiasm with Genesis. And the Genesis creation story is told twice from two different vantage points, focus on creation, focus on man's creation. I didn't say the Day is the same Day as the Rapture, etc. I don't want to go in-depth with you since you won't address what I actually write and consistently address me poorly, as with "That is just another theory from someone that does not understand the book." Why would you speak that way to me? I've memorized entire chapters of Revelation. I understand it well.

And I AGREE with you--"John started where he was, around 95 AD, and continues from that point in time straight through the church age, then through the day of the Lord and 70th week, then through the 1000 year reign of Christ, and on into a new heaven and earth, and on into eternity.  It is writing in perfect order, with the exception of parenthesis."

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Not "nice" but actually, nice. We agree on many things, the timing of the seals and bowls is the primary difference as it is between most people touching pretrib and prewrath.

I didn't say Revelation is chiastic in structure. I said it's a chiasm with Genesis. And the Genesis creation story is told twice from two different vantage points, focus on creation, focus on man's creation. I didn't say the Day is the same Day as the Rapture, etc. I don't want to go in-depth with you since you won't address what I actually write and consistently address me poorly, as with "That is just another theory from someone that does not understand the book." Why would you speak that way to me? I've memorized entire chapters of Revelation. I understand it well.

And I AGREE with you--"John started where he was, around 95 AD, and continues from that point in time straight through the church age, then through the day of the Lord and 70th week, then through the 1000 year reign of Christ, and on into a new heaven and earth, and on into eternity.  It is writing in perfect order, with the exception of parenthesis."

My friend, you did not understand: I was not addressing YOU about "Chiasm." Over the years I have read many posts where people claim it is the way Revelation is written. Sorry, did not understand that you were relating Revelation to Genesis. Well, maybe I did: for you wrote that you thought Revelation told the story twice. I would have to look back to get the exact wording. 

You claim that I don't  answer your questions. Sorry: I will try to do better. 

Ah! I found your post:  "The Bible contains countless chiasma, Genesis is a two-telling, it has been suggested that Revelation is the same."

You see, you did not say it was YOUR theory; you said "it has been suggested." I therefore was not coming against you personally, but against "it." However, if by writing that you are saying you agree with it, then I must disagree with you.  If you can show us line upon line Where in Revelation John is retelling something he addressed before, please do.

By the way, memorizing is a good thing, but it does not in any way prove that you understand the book. That is why I want us to get down to single verses or a few verses and discuss the meaning of the Author when He wrote. That way I think we can accomplish something. 

Something about our conversations amazes me: it seems you write "I agree with you" over and over, but claim you are prewrath. Let's try and clear something up here. Some people write, "prewrath and post trib" to describe their belief.

I would say I too am "prewrath" but I am also "pretrib." Please tell us all, which of these two you would say comes closest to your believe, or if neither fits, tell us what does.

Where do you put the rapture in relation to the 70th week? Before, after, or during?

Where Do you place the start of God's wrath: before the week, after the week, or during the week?

I don't want to go in-depth with you since you won't address what I actually write  I hope to correct that in this post.

Now I want to get into an "in depth." You wrote:  the timing of the seals and bowls is the primary difference as it is between most people touching pretrib and prewrath.

Let's discuss. The timing of the seals is laid down in concrete, so to speak. They cannot be moved. I  understand, many just don't understand that the PURPOSE of the seals is to seal the BOOK: so no one can get this book opened unless as specified. Most people don't understand the IMPORTANCE of this book either. I speak of course of the book sealed with 7 seals.  When we discover what is written inside the book, we see its importance. 

You see, unless this book gets opened (all seven seals opened first) Satan will remain  the god of this world forever. It is the opening of the book that will get Satan disposed as his place as the spiritual leader or "prince" of this world. And until someone can be found worthy to open the seals, again, Satan will remain as God of this world. 

Another thing most people don't understand: what God was conveying in chapter 4 and 5.  Here was God's dilemma:  He wanted to introduce John to the BOOK with seven seals, but wanted to start this introduction while the book was still in the hand of the Father.  Since it was around 95 AD, and the book still in the Father's hand was before Christ ascended, God would have to show some history, but somehow make it plain that it was history in this vision John was seeing.  How did God accomplish this?

A vision seen in 95 AD, around 60 years after Christ had ascended back into heaven:

John saw the throne room in a vision; but it was a throne room where Jesus was Not seen at the right hand of the Father. Note that there are over a dozen verses telling us that is where Jesus should have been seen: and Stephen SAW Him there.  Next, John saw the Holy Spirit there - as the seven Spirits of God. Yet, Jesus said that He would send Him (the Holy Spirit) down as soon as He ascended.

Finally, John saw a search for one worthy that ended in failure: "no man  was found." Yet, if we read ahead we see that Jesus was found worthy; so we should wonder, why was Jesus not found worthy (to take the book and open the seals) in that first search?

What is God doing in this vision? He is showing us a throne will during a time while Jesus was still on earth: some time during the 32 years of His life on earth. Then when He was not found worthy, we know it was before He rose from the dead. Then when He WAS found worthy, we know He had just risen from the dead.  He "prevailed" over death and escaped out of hell. No man had ever accomplished this before!

Next in the vision, John saw Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room. He arrived with the Holy Spirit, but immediately sent Him down, just as He has promised the disciples. 

Chapters 4 & 5 then, as the CONTEXT of the first seal, shows us TIMING, and the movement of TIME. God was showing John that Jesus got the book into His own hands as soon as He ascended - around 32 AD - and began immediately opening the seals. 

Therefore, the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended. It could not be the Antichrist. it HAD to be something around 32 AD. It also had to be something righteous:John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and 16 times was to represent righteousness. OF COURSE this use of a white horse had to represent righteousness. 

So seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel. 

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the Gospel. These three horses ride together. The white horse rides alone.

We see then, according to what is written, that God's goal is to get all 7 seals opened, so that the BOOK can be opened, so that the trumpet judgments can come to pass, so that finally, the 7th trumpet is sounded, where Satan gets dethroned.

Common sense notes:

The book Cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened. 

Once a seal is opened and the associated event or events take place, the use for that seal is done. It is forgotten.

Therefore, NO TRUMPET can possibly be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. Why? Because the trumpets  are what is written first inside the BOOK.

It is IMPOSSIBLE then to move any seal to any other location in the book of Revelation.

The book probably contains the entire 70th week:  chapters 8 through 16 are probably what is written inside the book. I cannot prove this, but no one can prove it is not true. 

This book with seven seals was created in the court room of heaven. Without a doubt, Satan demanded certain things about this book and the seals. OF COURSE He knew and knows that at the 7th trumpet He loses his kingdoms.  I am convinced that Satan demanded the seals. He demanded that ONLY a man who could conquer death could be worthy to open the seals.  IMO.

Next, since this is a legal document, neither God nor Satan could do what was written on a seal UNTIL that seal was opened. In other words, it would be ILLEGAL for God to send out His church to the world (seal 1) until that seal could legally be opened. 

I will end here: out of time. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by iamlamad

[Billiards Ball]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

My friend, you did not understand: I was not addressing YOU about "Chiasm." Over the years I have read many posts where people claim it is the way Revelation is written. Sorry, did not understand that you were relating Revelation to Genesis. Well, maybe I did: for you wrote that you thought Revelation told the story twice. I would have to look back to get the exact wording. 

You claim that I don't  answer your questions. Sorry: I will try to do better. 

Ah! I found your post:  "The Bible contains countless chiasma, Genesis is a two-telling, it has been suggested that Revelation is the same."

You see, you did not say it was YOUR theory; you said "it has been suggested." I therefore was not coming against you personally, but against "it." However, if by writing that you are saying you agree with it, then I must disagree with you.  If you can show us line upon line Where in Revelation John is retelling something he addressed before, please do.

By the way, memorizing is a good thing, but it does not in any way prove that you understand the book. That is why I want us to get down to single verses or a few verses and discuss the meaning of the Author when He wrote. That way I think we can accomplish something. 

Something about our conversations amazes me: it seems you write "I agree with you" over and over, but claim you are prewrath. Let's try and clear something up here. Some people write, "prewrath and post trib" to describe their belief.

I would say I too am "prewrath" but I am also "pretrib." Please tell us all, which of these two you would say comes closest to your believe, or if neither fits, tell us what does.

Where do you put the rapture in relation to the 70th week? Before, after, or during?

Where Do you place the start of God's wrath: before the week, after the week, or during the week?

I don't want to go in-depth with you since you won't address what I actually write  I hope to correct that in this post.

Now I want to get into an "in depth." You wrote:  the timing of the seals and bowls is the primary difference as it is between most people touching pretrib and prewrath.

Let's discuss. The timing of the seals is laid down in concrete, so to speak. They cannot be moved. I  understand, many just don't understand that the PURPOSE of the seals is to seal the BOOK: so no one can get this book opened unless as specified. Most people don't understand the IMPORTANCE of this book either. I speak of course of the book sealed with 7 seals.  When we discover what is written inside the book, we see its importance. 

You see, unless this book gets opened (all seven seals opened first) Satan will remain  the god of this world forever. It is the opening of the book that will get Satan disposed as his place as the spiritual leader or "prince" of this world. And until someone can be found worthy to open the seals, again, Satan will remain as God of this world. 

Another thing most people don't understand: what God was conveying in chapter 4 and 5.  Here was God's dilemma:  He wanted to introduce John to the BOOK with seven seals, but wanted to start this introduction while the book was still in the hand of the Father.  Since it was around 95 AD, and the book still in the Father's hand was before Christ ascended, God would have to show some history, but somehow make it plain that it was history in this vision John was seeing.  How did God accomplish this?

A vision seen in 95 AD, around 60 years after Christ had ascended back into heaven:

John saw the throne room in a vision; but it was a throne room where Jesus was Not seen at the right hand of the Father. Note that there are over a dozen verses telling us that is where Jesus should have been seen: and Stephen SAW Him there.  Next, John saw the Holy Spirit there - as the seven Spirits of God. Yet, Jesus said that He would send Him (the Holy Spirit) down as soon as He ascended.

Finally, John saw a search for one worthy that ended in failure: "no man  was found." Yet, if we read ahead we see that Jesus was found worthy; so we should wonder, why was Jesus not found worthy (to take the book and open the seals) in that first search?

What is God doing in this vision? He is showing us a throne will during a time while Jesus was still on earth: some time during the 32 years of His life on earth. Then when He was not found worthy, we know it was before He rose from the dead. Then when He WAS found worthy, we know He had just risen from the dead.  He "prevailed" over death and escaped out of hell. No man had ever accomplished this before!

Next in the vision, John saw Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room. He arrived with the Holy Spirit, but immediately sent Him down, just as He has promised the disciples. 

Chapters 4 & 5 then, as the CONTEXT of the first seal, shows us TIMING, and the movement of TIME. God was showing John that Jesus got the book into His own hands as soon as He ascended - around 32 AD - and began immediately opening the seals. 

Therefore, the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended. It could not be the Antichrist. it HAD to be something around 32 AD. It also had to be something righteous:John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and 16 times was to represent righteousness. OF COURSE this use of a white horse had to represent righteousness. 

So seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel. 

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the Gospel. These three horses ride together. The white horse rides alone.

We see then, according to what is written, that God's goal is to get all 7 seals opened, so that the BOOK can be opened, so that the trumpet judgments can come to pass, so that finally, the 7th trumpet is sounded, where Satan gets dethroned.

Common sense notes:

The book Cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened. 

Once a seal is opened and the associated event or events take place, the use for that seal is done. It is forgotten.

Therefore, NO TRUMPET can possibly be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. Why? Because the trumpets  are what is written first inside the BOOK.

It is IMPOSSIBLE then to move any seal to any other location in the book of Revelation.

The book probably contains the entire 70th week:  chapters 8 through 16 are probably what is written inside the book. I cannot prove this, but no one can prove it is not true. 

This book with seven seals was created in the court room of heaven. Without a doubt, Satan demanded certain things about this book and the seals. OF COURSE He knew and knows that at the 7th trumpet He loses his kingdoms.  I am convinced that Satan demanded the seals. He demanded that ONLY a man who could conquer death could be worthy to open the seals.  IMO.

Next, since this is a legal document, neither God nor Satan could do what was written on a seal UNTIL that seal was opened. In other words, it would be ILLEGAL for God to send out His church to the world (seal 1) until that seal could legally be opened. 

I will end here: out of time. 

Very good. I like what you're saying about the seals. However, Jesus suffered unto death and so every knee will bow, and Rev. four and five repeat over and again His death, but not His resurrection, as making Him "worthy".

Jesus was born on Tabernacles, rose on First Fruits, died on Passover, etc. Unfulfilled are the fall festivals, when the wheat and chaff are separated, the grapes are trod. Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement, the ten days of Awe and Rosh Hashanah/New Year/Jubilee. If the Antichrist sits in the Temple at mid-trib, it's PASSOVER, since he is mocking the Christ and is a true anti-type. Prewrath is simple, first four seals are war, famine, plague, death during the first 3.5, then fifth seal is beast on the ark and martyrdom of believers, sixth seal is sun and moon darken and the rapture drawing us away so the great trib/2nd 3.5 is "cut short" without which none would survive, then there are rewards and feasting in Heaven, bowl judgments on Earth... about ten days of Awe elapse between Yom Kippur's Rapture and the Rosh Hashanah Return.

I hear you loud and clear about the white horse separate and the first seal being the church, yet that wouldn't change my understanding of the Rapture timing/6th seal. In the world we have tribulation, are taken out before the [trumpets], bowls and plagues fall. It seems like another chiasm with Exodus this time, some days of plagues and awe before final judgment.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Very good. I like what you're saying about the seals. However, Jesus suffered unto death and so every knee will bow, and Rev. four and five repeat over and again His death, but not His resurrection, as making Him "worthy".

Jesus was born on Tabernacles, rose on First Fruits, died on Passover, etc. Unfulfilled are the fall festivals, when the wheat and chaff are separated, the grapes are trod. Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement, the ten days of Awe and Rosh Hashanah/New Year/Jubilee. If the Antichrist sits in the Temple at mid-trib, it's PASSOVER, since he is mocking the Christ and is a true anti-type. Prewrath is simple, first four seals are war, famine, plague, death during the first 3.5, then fifth seal is beast on the ark and martyrdom of believers, sixth seal is sun and moon darken and the rapture drawing us away so the great trib/2nd 3.5 is "cut short" without which none would survive, then there are rewards and feasting in Heaven, bowl judgments on Earth... about ten days of Awe elapse between Yom Kippur's Rapture and the Rosh Hashanah Return.

I hear you loud and clear about the white horse separate and the first seal being the church, yet that wouldn't change my understanding of the Rapture timing/6th seal. In the world we have tribulation, are taken out before the [trumpets], bowls and plagues fall. It seems like another chiasm with Exodus this time, some days of plagues and awe before final judgment.

Prewrath is simple, first four seals are war, famine, plague, death during the first 3.5   Your theory here is very common, but the truth is, John is in the church age while you are in the 70th week. That makes your theory 2000 years off. In other words, you are jumping the gun, so to speak. Of course you are free to believe as you do- all I am saying is, your theory will be proved wrong.  When I was studying chapters 4 & 5, God spoke to me: I heard His voice and His words; First He said:

It shows timing. Then later:

It also shows the movement of time.

I could not find either timing or the movement of time. So I kept on bugging Him. Finally, do to my thick head, He said this:

“Son, I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.”

Question 1:

.“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years.

There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father.

The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

Question 2

“John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Question 3

“If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

I was "in the spirit" with my senses suspended. I could not answer. But my spirit man answered after each question: "Lord, I cannot answer that question."

Now I was left with FIVE unanswered questions: the above three plus timing and the movement of time. I puzzled over these questions for weeks, bugging God for more help. Finally one day He came to help: I heard these words:

Turn over to chapter 12. I did not want to: I wanted the answers! But I was obedient. I turned by bible to chapter 12.

I heard these words:

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular, what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the 70th week.”

“Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”
(I counted 32, and told Him. Then He continued: )

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a history lesson for John.”

I had already come to believe that those first 5 verses of chapter 12 where about Jesus birth and how the devil used King Herod to attempt to kill Him.

As I was contemplating "history lesson," He told me I could turn back to chapters 4 & 5 again. Within a few minutes I found the answer to ever question. This part of the vision was about John's past, before Jesus rose from the dead!

1. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, for at the time of this part of the vision He was still on earth.

2. Jesus was not found worthy in the first search because at that time He had not yet risen from the dead.

3. The Holy Spirit was there because Jesus had not ascended to send HIm down.

The timing was a time before Christ rose and ascended. The movement of time is shown when "no man was found" to the time Jesus was found.

I understand then that this entire part of the vision was to establish the timing for the first seals. John saw the moment Jesus ascended (shortly after He rose from the dead) and sent the Holy Spirit down. This establishes the time of the first seal to around 32 AD.  Without any doubt, He opened seals 2 through 4 right after seal 1. in fact, the first place we find ANY hint of a long wait is at the 5th seal and martyrs of the church age. In short, they must wait for the church age to end.

As you can see, my belief is very different than yours; and now you can see WHY I believe as I do. I had help. I was far too slow to get this understanding on my own!

I think the rapture will come on the last trump at the feast of trumpets, so the ten days of awe would be between the 6th seal (start of the day of the Lord) and the 7th seal, which is the start of the 70th week.

God took John in the vision from before He rose from the dead up to His ascension, then into the church age, including the martyrs, then to the start of judgment (the rapture was unseen just before judgment starts) as in the Day of the Lord, then the start of the 70th week and on through the week to the end of the week with the 7th vial, then the destruction of Jerusalem as the Great wh**e, then to the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN, then Jesus decent down to Armageddon. There is no back peddling, now Chiasm,  no recanting something previously written.

You cannot say "I agree with all this." You may agree with some of it. You should agree with it, because it is TRUTH!

Edited September 25, 2019 by iamlamad

[Billiards Ball]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Prewrath is simple, first four seals are war, famine, plague, death during the first 3.5   Your theory here is very common, but the truth is, John is in the church age while you are in the 70th week. That makes your theory 2000 years off. In other words, you are jumping the gun, so to speak. Of course you are free to believe as you do- all I am saying is, your theory will be proved wrong.  When I was studying chapters 4 & 5, God spoke to me: I heard His voice and His words; First He said:

It shows timing. Then later:

It also shows the movement of time.

I could not find either timing or the movement of time. So I kept on bugging Him. Finally, do to my thick head, He said this:

“Son, I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.”

Question 1:

.“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years.

There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father.

The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

Question 2

“John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Question 3

“If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

I was "in the spirit" with my senses suspended. I could not answer. But my spirit man answered after each question: "Lord, I cannot answer that question."

Now I was left with FIVE unanswered questions: the above three plus timing and the movement of time. I puzzled over these questions for weeks, bugging God for more help. Finally one day He came to help: I heard these words:

Turn over to chapter 12. I did not want to: I wanted the answers! But I was obedient. I turned by bible to chapter 12.

I heard these words:

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular, what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the 70th week.”

“Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”
(I counted 32, and told Him. Then He continued: )

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a history lesson for John.”

I had already come to believe that those first 5 verses of chapter 12 where about Jesus birth and how the devil used King Herod to attempt to kill Him.

As I was contemplating "history lesson," He told me I could turn back to chapters 4 & 5 again. Within a few minutes I found the answer to ever question. This part of the vision was about John's past, before Jesus rose from the dead!

1. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, for at the time of this part of the vision He was still on earth.

2. Jesus was not found worthy in the first search because at that time He had not yet risen from the dead.

3. The Holy Spirit was there because Jesus had not ascended to send HIm down.

The timing was a time before Christ rose and ascended. The movement of time is shown when "no man was found" to the time Jesus was found.

I understand then that this entire part of the vision was to establish the timing for the first seals. John saw the moment Jesus ascended (shortly after He rose from the dead) and sent the Holy Spirit down. This establishes the time of the first seal to around 32 AD.  Without any doubt, He opened seals 2 through 4 right after seal 1. in fact, the first place we find ANY hint of a long wait is at the 5th seal and martyrs of the church age. In short, they must wait for the church age to end.

As you can see, my belief is very different than yours; and now you can see WHY I believe as I do. I had help. I was far too slow to get this understanding on my own!

I think the rapture will come on the last trump at the feast of trumpets, so the ten days of awe would be between the 6th seal (start of the day of the Lord) and the 7th seal, which is the start of the 70th week.

God took John in the vision from before He rose from the dead up to His ascension, then into the church age, including the martyrs, then to the start of judgment (the rapture was unseen just before judgment starts) as in the Day of the Lord, then the start of the 70th week and on through the week to the end of the week with the 7th vial, then the destruction of Jerusalem as the Great wh**e, then to the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN, then Jesus decent down to Armageddon. There is no back peddling, now Chiasm,  no recanting something previously written.

You cannot say "I agree with all this." You may agree with some of it. You should agree with it, because it is TRUTH!

I don't understand. Your theory about the first seal being the church is based on exegesis or a vision(s) you had?

And again, the timing of the first seal does not affect the timing of the 6th seal.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I don't understand. Your theory about the first seal being the church is based on exegesis or a vision(s) you had?

And again, the timing of the first seal does not affect the timing of the 6th seal.

Both.  But I would have to day it was Jesus' own exegesis. 

You are right, the 6th seal comes at the start of the Day of the Lord.

But, a minute before the 6th seal it is still church age. NOTHING before the 6th seal is end times - it is church age - but of course at the very end of the church age. The rapture of the church will come just  before the 6th seal.

[Billiards Ball]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Both.  But I would have to day it was Jesus' own exegesis. 

You are right, the 6th seal comes at the start of the Day of the Lord.

But, a minute before the 6th seal it is still church age. NOTHING before the 6th seal is end times - it is church age - but of course at the very end of the church age. The rapture of the church will come just  before the 6th seal.

You can imagine I'm uncomfortable with Jesus giving you an exegesis that other exegetes have not had (that I know of).  You are making, for example, the "little while" the martyrs wait (5th seal) a 2,000-year period, and I can't think of a parallel passage that makes this work. 1,000 years is like 1 day for the Lord, but likely not for martyrs.

But again, I have two drivers here:

1) Are there interpretations of challenging passages that are simple, like "a short while" is a short while?

2) If even an angel gives a vision, does it match the scripture?

Thank you.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

You can imagine I'm uncomfortable with Jesus giving you an exegesis that other exegetes have not had (that I know of).  You are making, for example, the "little while" the martyrs wait (5th seal) a 2,000-year period, and I can't think of a parallel passage that makes this work. 1,000 years is like 1 day for the Lord, but likely not for martyrs.

But again, I have two drivers here:

1) Are there interpretations of challenging passages that are simple, like "a short while" is a short while?

2) If even an angel gives a vision, does it match the scripture?

Thank you.

I guess I can imagine, but you should not be surprised: after all, God gave Paul so many revelations, even of his gospel by which we will be judged: it all came by revealed knowledge. Then Jesus said, "my sheep know my voice..." I know of at least two others that believe just about the same thing I do in Revelation: that the rapture will come just before the 6th seal.

What exactly does "shortly" mean to God? Much of Revelation is still in our future!

If I were in your place, i would examine each of the questions Jesus asked me and see if they fit what is written. IS there "timing" in chapters 4 & 5? Of course there is. Is there movement of time? Of course there is. But I will admit, I was exceedingly slow to spot these things!

Did John see into the throne room and see the Father on the throne, but did NOT see Jesus at His right hand? That is the way I read it.

Did John see a search for one worthy (to open the seals) yet that search ended in failure? Certainly: it is the very reason John wept much!

I understand this does not match many people's beliefs or theories on Revelation.  It is up to each person to study and see if these things fit what is written: note, NOT fit their theory!  I could say, can you see a 1% possibility, with your knowledge of Revelation, that this could be the intent of the Author?

I will add this: there is at least one commentator that wrote that the first seal was the Gospel sent out. There may be others.

Edited September 26, 2019 by iamlamad