What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Ovedya]

How ironic that I should have had to teach a lesson on Noah's ark over the weekend.

...Or maybe it's not so "ironic" at all...

I think that it is important to this issue to discuss the difference between man's way of salvation and God's way of salvation. But first examine the following verses and see if you can tell what their significance is, and how they tie into the subject:

Genesis 3:7, "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons."

Genesis 3:21, "21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them."

Genesis 4:1-7, "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD." And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a tiller of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." "

Genesis 6:1,6-8 When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose...And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD."

Genesis 6:13-18, "And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and set the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks. For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. "

Have you figured out how these verses are connected, and how they relate to the issue of salvation being a matter of faith and not work?

Then let me explain...

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God one of the first things that they did was to sew leaves together to cover their nakedness. Now ask yourself: How efficient to think that leaves are as clothing? How long do you think these "aprons" of fig leaves would have lasted Adam and Eve?

The fact that Adam and Eve used leaves to cover their nakedness signifies that they were ashamed of their sins and they concocted a means of "covering" their sins themselves. However, God, in His great mercy slew an animal in order to cover both Adam and Eve.

God's way verses man's way.

Next we have Cain and Abel. Cain was a farmer of vegetables and Abel was a shepherd. Ask yourself: Who told Abel to be a shepherd? Up until the Time that Noah exited the ark, there is no indication from Scripture that man had eaten any meat. So where do you think that Abel got the idea to shepherd sheep?

Both Cain and Abel made offerings to the Lord, but the Lord only accepted Abel's offering. He did not accept Cain's. Why do you think that is?

Here is what I strongly believe:

That animal that God slew in the garden in order to cloth Adam and Eve was a sheep. Now, the Scripture does not state emphatically that this is the case. However, I believe that it is appropriate to discern that it was a sheep, because Abel became a shepherd of sheep!

Imagine: Adam and Eve are standing before God, naked, except for some fig leaves. God takes an innocent sheep and slays it before the two of them, shedding it's blood. He then takes its skin and uses it to clothe them. Then later, as their first children were growing up, Adam tells them the story of how God covered them. Naturally then, being impressed with God's great mercy, Abel becomes a shepherd.

I know that all sounds a bit far fetched, but in principal, why do you think that God accepted Abel's offering and not Cain's? Both offerings were the fruits of their labor, however, God only accepted Abel's offering.

Consider what offerings are for. Offerings are given to God as acts of repentance for sins. According to God's plan of salvation only the shedding of blood is acceptable for the remission of sins. According to God's righteousness both Adam and Eve were worthy of death that day that they sinned before God. However, God, in His great love and mercy, accepted the death of an animal in their place, and He used the skin of that animal as clothing for them.

Remember: God's way verses man's way.

In Genesis 6 we see that man had fallen very far - even to the point that God Himself had grieved making him. God's judgment was about to be unleashed upon the earth. However, there was one man that stood for God. Noah was a man who was for God, and he found favor in God's sight. Therefore, God gave Noah a plan for the salvation of his family, in the form of an ark that would carry them over the waters of God's judgment.

Now, you say that Noah's building the ark was a "work unto salvation." However, what you are completely ignoring is the fact that it was according to God's design in the first place.

In the beginning God ordained that salvation be attained through the shedding of blood. So it is not insignificant that God was the first Person in the Bible to have ever shed the blood of an animal! The shedding of an animal's blood was salvation by God's design, not man's. Man's "design" was to cover himself temporarily with clothes of his own design (note "garments" vs. "aprons"). But God's design was to slay an animal and cover man with the skin.

The Lord Jesus is the Lamb of God, who was slain before the foundations of the earth, to bring redemption to man for the remission of his sins, through the shedding of His blood. Now, being believers in Christ, His shed blood has become our "covering," so that God no longer looks upon the sins of man, but upon the very Christ who has died in our stead.

Not only so, but the Lord Jesus has become our "ark." We are in Him and He is in us as our life. Our salvation is in Christ alone. There is nothing that we can do in and of ourselves that is greater than the single work that Christ has accomplished through the shedding of His own blood. God is greatly pleased with the death of His Son! Does the Scriptures not say that it pleased God to put Him to death? Absolutely!

Salvation is something that is absolutely of God's design. It is not, and it can not, be anything of our own design. God has not designed that man work to attain his own salvation. All we are good for is sewing fig leaves together for a temporary covering! Everything that man needs to live in Christ, and to become children and heirs of Christ, has been accomplished by the shedding of His very own blood!

So to close, ask yourself: How does one attain salvation? First you need the shed blood of the Lamb of God. Secondly you need to be in the "ark," which is the new creation, the Body of Christ. The moment you believe into Christ with your heart, and confess His death and resurrection with your mouth, the one sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, gets applied to you. Then the Lord Jesus comes to dwell in your spirit, and makes you a partaker of the divine nature. In your human spirit you become one with Him and He becomes one with you. He becomes the very source and element of your eternal salvation.

You. can. do. nothing. to. save. yourself.

Much Grace,

~O

[Guest shiloh357]

We are not disputing that salvation is from Jesus. But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds.

God does not make us do good. God will put us in the position to do them, the rest is up to you.

We do good because we love Jesus because He told us to but He is not going to make us do good. He wants us to be doers and not just hearers.

My dad says he doesnt do certain things because God hasn't liad it on his heart to do them. Why does God need to lay something on ones heart when Jesus said to do it? We have it in writing. That is why we have the bible.

God guides us by our faith, We still have a duty to listen to Him.

It is not a free ride. You dont just believe and that is it. We need to be doers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, no one is saying that we should be disobedient to Jesus. That is not the issue. Perhaps you need to read the thread. You are not even addressing the issue under discussion.

We are not debating whether or not we should obey Jesus, and perform works of righteousness as commanded. We all agree that obedience is part of being a Christian. The question raised by this thread is whether or not our works determine whether or not we are granted eternal life. My contention is that works to do not contriute to salvation but are the outworking, or demonstration of my faith. My works show that I am saved.

Please try to stay on topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I have posted here is exactly what he is talking about.

But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds.

Our works are essential.

Im sorry you dont understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are NOT posting according to topic. No one here is wanting to deny Jesus. No one here said that works are not essential. We are saying that they are not essential for salvation I am sorry that you don't understand, Hill.

[Guest shiloh357]

How ironic  that I should have had to teach a lesson on Noah's ark over the weekend.

...Or maybe it's not so "ironic" at all...

I think that it is important to this issue to discuss the difference between man's way of salvation and God's way of salvation.  But first examine the following verses and see if you can tell what their significance is, and how they tie into the subject:

Genesis 3:7, "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons."

Genesis 3:21, "21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them."

Genesis 4:1-7,  "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."  And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a tiller of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.  The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." "

Genesis 6:1,6-8 When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose...And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.  So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."  But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD."

Genesis 6:13-18, "And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth.  Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch.  This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.  Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and set the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks.  For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die.  But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. "

Have you figured out how these verses are connected, and how they relate to the issue of salvation being a matter of faith and not work?

Then let me explain...

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God one of the first things that they did was to sew leaves together to cover their nakedness.  Now ask yourself:  How efficient to think that leaves are as clothing?  How long do you think these "aprons" of fig leaves would have lasted Adam and Eve?

The fact that Adam and Eve used leaves to cover their nakedness signifies that they were ashamed of their sins and they concocted a means of "covering" their sins themselves.  However, God, in His great mercy slew an animal in order to cover both Adam and Eve.

God's way verses man's way.

Next we have Cain and Abel.  Cain was a farmer of vegetables and Abel was a shepherd.  Ask yourself:  Who told Abel to be a shepherd?  Up until the Time that Noah exited the ark, there is no indication from Scripture that man had eaten any meat.  So where do you think that Abel got the idea to shepherd sheep?

Both Cain and Abel made offerings to the Lord, but the Lord only accepted Abel's offering.  He did not accept Cain's.  Why do you think that is?

Here is what I strongly believe:

That animal that God slew in the garden in order to cloth Adam and Eve was a sheep.  Now, the Scripture does not state emphatically that this is the case.  However, I believe that it is appropriate to discern that it was a sheep, because Abel became a shepherd of sheep!

Imagine:  Adam and Eve are standing before God, naked, except for some fig leaves.  God takes an innocent sheep and slays it before the two of them, shedding it's blood.  He then takes its skin and uses it to clothe them.  Then later, as their first children were growing up, Adam tells them the story of how God covered them.  Naturally then, being impressed with God's great mercy, Abel becomes a shepherd.

I know that all sounds a bit far fetched, but in principal, why do you think that God accepted Abel's offering and not Cain's?  Both offerings were the fruits of their labor, however, God only accepted Abel's offering. 

Consider what offerings are for.  Offerings are given to God as acts of repentance for sins.  According to God's plan of salvation only the shedding of blood is acceptable for the remission of sins.  According to God's righteousness both Adam and Eve were worthy of death that day that they sinned before God.  However, God, in His great love and mercy, accepted the death of an animal in their place, and He used the skin of that animal as clothing for them.

Remember: God's way verses man's way.

In Genesis 6 we see that man had fallen very far - even to the point that God Himself had grieved making him.  God's judgment was about to be unleashed upon the earth.  However, there was one man that stood for God.  Noah was a man who was for God, and he found favor in God's sight.  Therefore, God gave Noah a plan for the salvation of his family, in the form of an ark that would carry them over the waters of God's judgment.

Now, you say that Noah's building the ark was a "work unto salvation."  However, what you are completely ignoring is the fact that it was according to God's design in the first place.

In the beginning God ordained that salvation be attained through the shedding of blood.  So it is not insignificant that God was the first Person in the Bible to have ever shed the blood of an animal!  The shedding of an animal's blood was salvation by God's design, not man's.  Man's "design" was to cover himself temporarily with clothes of his own design (note "garments" vs. "aprons").  But God's design was to slay an animal and cover man with the skin.

The Lord Jesus is the Lamb of God, who was slain before the foundations of the earth, to bring redemption to man for the remission of his sins, through the shedding of His blood.  Now, being believers in Christ, His shed blood has become our "covering," so that God no longer looks upon the sins of man, but upon the very Christ who has died in our stead.

Not only so, but the Lord Jesus has become our "ark."  We are in Him and He is in us as our life.  Our salvation is in Christ alone.  There is nothing that we can do in and of ourselves that is greater than the single work that Christ has accomplished through the shedding of His own blood. God is greatly pleased with the death of His Son!  Does the Scriptures not say that it pleased God to put Him to death?  Absolutely!

Salvation is something that is absolutely of God's design.  It is not, and it can not, be anything of our own design. God has not designed that man work to attain his own salvation.  All we are good for is sewing fig leaves together for a temporary covering!  Everything that man needs to live in Christ, and to become children and heirs of Christ, has been accomplished by the shedding of His very own blood!

So to close, ask yourself:  How does one attain salvation?  First you need the shed blood of the Lamb of God.  Secondly you need to be in the "ark," which is the new creation, the Body of Christ.  The moment you believe into Christ with your heart, and confess His death and resurrection with your mouth, the one sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, gets applied to you.  Then the Lord Jesus comes to dwell in your spirit, and makes you a partaker of the divine nature.  In your human spirit you become one with Him and He becomes one with you.  He becomes the very source and element of your eternal salvation.

You. can. do. nothing. to. save. yourself.

Much Grace,

~O

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Beautiful post, Oyedya!! Very well written!!

[angels4u]

Read the first post on the thread on John's test question. Those who don't pass the doctrinal test are antichrist.

How many here do you think past the test?

Do YOU pass the test?

[other one]

this is an interesting thread to me. It seems to me that you are all arguing the cause of which came first..... the egg or the chicken.

Do you have to have good works to be saved....... no but they naturally follow when salvation comes.......

Can good works save you???? No but if you don't have some kind of works, one should question if they are saved.

You are saved when you verbally make Jesus Christ your Lord and believe in your heart that the Father raised Him from the Grave........

With your mouth you are outwardly showing your faith and by making Him your Lord, you are fully trusting Him for eternity. Jesus dieing on the cross and paying for our sins is what actually saves us, but our putting ourselves under His Lordship is the final thing that makes it possible. He does all the work up front and we only have to accept it. However when you make Jesus your Lord there are things that go along with that, and good works will follow naturally. The trick is to understand what "Lord" is and what is expected of any "Lord's" subjects.

If you are not subject to Jesus then you have not made Him your Lord, If you have then you will do the things that He has told us to do and the natural progression of this is good works.

This is what James and Paul were both talking about, just from two perspectives.

You have to have faith to make Jesus your Lord (or subject yourself to Him), just as Abraham had to have faith to trust the Lord with his son.

Good works don't save a person, but a saved person will do some good works..... how many and to what lengths he builds on the gospel of salvation will determine his/her status in heaven.

At least this is what I think the scripture teaches overall......

[Guest shiloh357]

You have a proper handle on it, Sam. Too bad some others don't.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Beautiful post, Oyedya!! Very well written!!

I second that motion Beautiful

[WayneB]

Beautiful post, Oyedya!! Very well written!!

I second that motion Beautiful

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I third that motion.

It is obvious that Ovedya stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently!

Seriously, great stuff Ovedya. I hadn't thought of it quite like that.

[Fisher of Men]

Now, you say that Noah's building the ark was a "work unto salvation." However, what you are completely ignoring is the fact that it was according to God's design in the first place.

I'm sure not denying that:

Paul knew that he was ultimately not responsible for the good works manifested in his life. He could not boast that the life he lived after accepting and following Jesus was the result of his own workmanship. And it was with this in mind and with the knowledge that the Ephesians were also abiding in this state of being saved from living in sin that he wrote the following to them: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

Paul

Edited June 28, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[Guest shiloh357]

Now, you say that Noah's building the ark was a "work unto salvation." However, what you are completely ignoring is the fact that it was according to God's design in the first place.

I'm sure not denying that:

Paul knew that he was ultimately not responsible for the good works manifested in his life. He could not boast that the life he lived after accepting and following Jesus was the result of his own workmanship. And it was with this in mind and with the knowledge that the Ephesians were also abiding in this state of being saved from living in sin that he wrote the following to them: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

Paul