Will pregnancy and toddlers/children vanish when Rapture happens ?

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Perhaps "things which are" referred to things in John's day, or perhaps they referred to things right at that moment. Is there a way of knowing exactly? 

I agree that it is a reference to things in John's day, things that were going on at that time.  Yes, we do have a way of knowing exactly what Jesus was referring to because He told John to write about it and he did.  He wrote the seven letters to the seven churches.

• Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.  Revelation 1:19

We can agree that "the things which are" refers to things going on in John's day.  John was then told to write of the things which would take place afterward.  What did John write about?  The seven seals, etc.  The first seal can not have been opened in 33 AD as you claim because it takes place AFTER "the things which are" which we both agree were things going on in 95 AD.

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

That's the chronology of the last days, and it lines up perfectly with Revelation.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One thing that existed in John's day was the seven churches. Over time they disappeared.  I tend to think Jesus was not referring to the entire church age. 

Weren't there more that seven churches in existence in 95 AD?  Why only letters to seven?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Your consistency is that of water. You rightly abstain from adding the idea 'only' to 'the things which are' in another conversation; but liberally apply the idea of 'only' when it suits your purposes.

"God is telling us that ONLY A MAN could qualify to open the seals." Where is that idea related in the relevant text?

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? Here? Do we have the concept 'only a man could qualify'?

 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Here? All I see is no man was able to open the book nor look at it. 

 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Here? Again, no man was worthy. The text screams about the unworthiness of mankind.

The Lamb is Worthy

5And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 

Here we go. The worthy one. Not a man.

Isaiah 9:6 

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

Hebrews 1:8 

But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Colossians 2:9 

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Revelation 1:17-18 

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

1 John 4:2 

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

 

 

He became God in a body. The fullness of deity. Pre-existent. God in the flesh and worthy from before everlasting to everlasting.

You are suspect.

I am suspect? You say that only because we read scripture differently. When I read Rev. 4 & 5, I actually believe what is written.

Where is that idea related in the relevant text? (only a man) It is very simple: why don't you believe it as written? John wrote, "no MAN was found..."  The angel was not looking for God. That's pretty simple. Obviously it was written on the outside of the book.

The worthy one. Not a man.  Sorry, But God left the ivory palaces of heaven and was born AS A MAN. Did you forget this detail? Yes He was God. Yes He was man. None of this would have been written if God could open the book. It was in the Father's hand, yet an angel was seeking someone worthy to take it and open the seals. It should be obvious no mere man would qualify.  You still don't get it! It had to be a MAN that could defeat death! Satan was sure no would would EVER qualify!

Let's see: how many times did Jesus call Himself the Son of Man?

Biblegateway tells us 88 times! OF COURSE He qualified as MAN. He had a physical body of a MAN. He had a Spirit inside (That was God - the second person of the trinity) and He had a soul - just like every man ever born on earth. 

But you still don't get it: it had to be a man who could OVERCOME and PREVAIL over death on his own power.  In other words, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second person of the trinity DID NOT QUALIFY until AFTER He raised from the dead. 

As Jesus said to me: chapters 4 & 5 shows TIMING and the MOVEMENT of time. It seems you see words but miss the message IN the words. God laid it out very plainly: first a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN (think absent).

Then the Holy Spirit there in the throne room when we would expect Him to already be sent down.

Then a search for one worthy that ended in failure. Some people ask: did Jesus disappear? Where was He then (thinking that He as God was always qualified to open the book). The truth is written right there in the scripture: HE PREVAILED:

Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book...

What is the meaning here? Why had He not "prevailed" before John wept much? What is God telling us? God is showing us TIMING and the movement of TIME. He is showing is that during that first search John watched: JESUS HAD NOT YET RISEN FROM THE DEAD.

Think about it: if Jesus COULDN'T rise from the dead (Think Sadducees) then as Paul said, our faith would be in vain and we would still be in our sins. The truth is, ONLY A MAN and ONLY A MAN WHO COULD DEFEAT DEATH could qualify to open the book.  What God is showing us here is progression of TIME: God showed us a throne where Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father BECAUSE OF TIME: the TIME was while He was on earth or under the earth.  While He was a man, He had to lay aside being omnipresent. He was ON EARTH, not in heaven - so of course John could not see Him.

Next, God showed us the Holy Spirit in that throne room,when, in 95 AD we would expect Him to have already been sent down.

Next, God shows us a search for one worthy to take the book - but that search ended in failure. WHY? WHY did it end in failure? It is very simple: AT THAT TIME Jesus had not YET prevailed over death.

As soon as Jesus prevailed over death, He was found worthy. See how simple this is?

It had to be a MAN, but it had to be a MAN who could prevail over death under His own power. Lazarus would not qualify: he rose from the dead, but not by himself. 

The Lamb is Worthy ONLY after He died and then rose from the dead.  That is why John wrote "no man was found..."

“Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore  This is why He became qualified to take the book. Before He became "alive evermore" He did not qualify. This is what God is telling us.

 

Jesus is God. Not a man. He did not become man.  This is where you have erred. OF COURSE HE BECAME A MAN! What is a man? 

1. A spirit that gives life

2. A physical body

3. A soul: mind, will, emotions

Jesus therefore qualified as a MAN. The difference between Jesus Christ and all other men: the spirit inside that brought life was the second person of the Godhood: the very being that in the beginning said: "LIGHT BE!" He had to become a man to save mankind. 88 times He called Himself the Son of MAN. He was therefore GOD in a man's body. See how simply this is? With a man's body He qualified as a MAN. 

and worthy from before everlasting to everlasting.  WRONG! Yes, worthy, but NOT WORTHY TO TAKE THE BOOK! To be worthy to take the book, it had to be a man who died, and then prevailed over death by rising from the dead. 

This is not difficult, but preconceived glasses makes it difficult to understand. Take them OFF! Come with no preconceptions and just believe what is written as it is written. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the father because at that moment in time He was under the earth. The Holy Spirit was there because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. No man was found worthy because at that time Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. 

But then, TIME PASSED: three days and three nights - and Jesus came up out of hell and then after a very short time (with Mary) ascended back into the throne room. And John, IN THE VISION, got to see that moment in time. And John wrote that at that moment the Holy Spirit was sent down, exactly as Jesus said He would do. 

Jesus then went and got the book into HIS hands and began opening the seals. NO TIME DELAY. The first seal was opened around 32 AD. That is God's message to us in chapters 4 & 5.

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I agree that it is a reference to things in John's day, things that were going on at that time.  Yes, we do have a way of knowing exactly what Jesus was referring to because He told John to write about it and he did.  He wrote the seven letters to the seven churches.

• Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.  Revelation 1:19

We can agree that "the things which are" refers to things going on in John's day.  John was then told to write of the things which would take place afterward.  What did John write about?  The seven seals, etc.  The first seal can not have been opened in 33 AD as you claim because it takes place AFTER "the things which are" which we both agree were things going on in 95 AD.

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

That's the chronology of the last days, and it lines up perfectly with Revelation.

Weren't there more that seven churches in existence in 95 AD?  Why only letters to seven?

What you are missing: the entire vision from start to finish came in John's day. He WROTE It after the vision in His day. He was called up to heaven (chapter 4) in his day. All this is things that are. It all happened in 95 AD or there about. However, inside the vision is another story: a vision can be past, present or future or all mixed up. 

God wanted this to be a revelation, not a hiding or cloaking. He started while the book was still in the Father's hand, before Jesus rose from the dead, then progressed in a very linear fashion through the church age, then to the beginning of judgment and the beginning of the day of the Lord (6th seal) then into the 70th week (7th seal) to the midpoint of the week (7th trumpet) and to the end of the week (7th vial) and then to His coming to Armageddon (chapter 19) then covered the 1000 year reign briefly, then on into eternity. God did not try to make this difficult. The difficulty comes from preconceptions that don't fit what is written as it is written - so many people feel the need to rearrange. 

Matthew 24:14 is tied in with wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, and pestilences and with the phrase, the end is not yet. These parallel the first 4 seals. They are not "the end." they are church age. Just so you know, the end Jesus is speaking of is the end when He comes to armageddon, not the end of our Gentile church age that will end at the rapture. 

WHEN then will the gospel of the Kingdom (NOT Paul's Gospel) be preached in the whole world? It is done by angels as seen in Rev. 14 - around the midpoint of the 70th week: they preach to all people in their own language. No one will have an excuse. AFter chapter 14, the days of GT begin and finally end when God pours out the vials of His wrath with the associated plagues. 

The first seal can not have been opened in 33 AD as you claim because it takes place AFTER "the things which are" which we both agree were things going on in 95 AD. You are confusing reality with what was in the vision. John saw the vision in 95 AD, but INSIDE that vision were events from 60 years or so previous to John's time: Jesus under the earth, Jesus risen from the dead, Jesus ascending into heaven. 

Some commentators believe these churches were under John's jurisdiction. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, other one said:

I don't think we can compare the second coming to anything that has happened in thepast.   I'm kind of late in getting into this thread but here I am anyway.

I don't think anyone will disappear, but will be transformed into new bodies.....   and our old bodies will just fall to the way side.

if we kept the old bodies I don't think the vultures would be gathered....     it will also be very bad for those who are with child for they will give birth to a stillborn and mothers who are still breast feeding will be terrible….
 

OF COURSE It will be our old bodies but CHANGED. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—"

Our bodies are resurrected and changed into resurrection bodies. 

The bodies left for the vultures will probably be from the parable of the tares.

[other one]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

OF COURSE It will be our old bodies but CHANGED. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—"

Our bodies are resurrected and changed into resurrection bodies. 

The bodies left for the vultures will probably be from the parable of the tares.

but will the body be changed or what makes us.... us....     I don't think it is the bodies changed, but we are just given new ones....    many of the dead no longer have bodies at all....   and I think the vultures is just a tell to let us know...

and it would make all the left behind movies a little different....

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

You can't just make it up as you go. There is no justification to require 'them' to include the black and red horse when it's obvious from the text:

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

'them' includes "Death and Hell" only. If you are going to engage in such a wide scope for a pronoun what's to stop you from including the white horse? Hmmm? How does it leave out the white horse when you insist 'them' must be the two previous equines? Because it doesn't fit your personal ideas. 

You remind me of ME when God was teaching me. I was SO SLOW to get it. Just do you know, NONE of this is my "Personal ideas." Jesus taught me. I heard His voice and His words. Now let's go through this again:

 

2nd Seal

⁴ Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

3rd Seal

⁵ When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.” (people smarter than me say this was a day's wages - so one could earn only enough to eat poorly)

4th Seal

⁸ So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Follow the colors: God is telling us something. "THEM" includes the 2nd seal SWORD, the 3rd seal HUNGER and the 4th seal DEATH.  So THEM was limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4th of the earth. This alone proves that the first seal cannot be the Antichrist beast of chapter 13. He is not going to be limited to one fourth of the earth. And if the first seal is the Beast, then it stands to reason all these other horses are with him. How strange then that John does not even mention the Beast until chapter 13. Well, there is a very simple explanation: the first seal is NOT the Beast and so is NOT limited to 1/4 the earth. The first seal is left out of this mix, since "THEM" starts with the sword which is the second seal.

The first seal is to represent the Gospel, which is to go to all nations. The next three seals, the sword, the hunger, the pestilence that brings death  are all to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. Where do most missionaries go when a plague hits their area - such as the black death? Answer: they RUN - with very few exceptions. Where do missionaries go when WAR breaks out? With few exceptions, THEY RUN. Satan was probably sure he could keep the gospel inside that 1/4 of the earth. We know now he failed.

I was very slow on this. I asked God time and time again, WHO IS THEM? He always answered the same way: "It is right in the verse - read it again."  I am embarrassed how long it took me to understand. I was also very slow on chapters 4 & 5. Embarrassingly slow. I spent weeks of several hours a day trying to answer His three questions. I just could not see time. I could not see any movement of time. I could not understand a throne room where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of God. I could not understand why the Holy Spirit was seen in the throne room. I could not understand why Jesus was not found in the first search. And Jesus' words to me were:

"Until you can answer these three questions correctly, you will NEVER understand this part of John's vision." (This is where you are now.)

I struggled for weeks, until finally God spoke and said,. "turn to chapter 12." So I did, reluctantly. He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12: "This was Me introducing John to the Dragon. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." (He waited while I counted.) "In particular, this is about what the dragon will be doing during the last half of the week, but I CHOSE TO SHOW JOHN WHAT THE DRAGON DID WHEN I WAS A YOUNG BOY. Those first 5 verses were a HISTORY LESSON for John." (Emphasis added) 

As I was contemplating on "history lesson" He spoke again: "Now you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again." I notice that you have never tried to answer the three questions He asked me. 

Within a few minutes I had the right answer to His three questions. What I was missing was "history lesson."

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

The 'aorist' tense, or non-tense is nonsense. It's never defined properly in eschatological circles as is used as 'sleeve card' as you are doing here. It's the same language in both instances; 'orge erchomai'.

You can't define the same language differently by abusing the definitions. I get it doesn't fit your ideas but when facts are presented you change the idea, not the fact. Since the aorist tense testifies to the fact of the action and has no bearing on time, we can only say it's happened at the point where the text says. If it's not inflected to show tense then wrath 'is' at the 7th trump just as it 'is' at the 6th seal. In other words, right at this moment; which can only be the case as you said, " without regard for past, present, or future time.". It's not ongoing at the 7th trump if it's not ongoing at the 6th seal since the language in both cases is exactly the same.

The way REvelation is written, we discover timing by the first mention. For example, the 5th seal is church age: martyrs being added. The 6th seal is the first mention of God's wrath as in the DAY of his wrath. We know God is not mad at the martyrs! God does not have wrath towards His church. His wrath is against those who refuse to repent of their wicked deeds. We need to focus on the forest - the entire message of Revelation - first, before we examine the trees. 

I agree,. the language is the same in each case. The difference is in TIMING: which one came first. If you study, you will discover that most of John's verbs are Aorist. Only occasionally did he use future tense verbs.  I am not a Greek scholar: I can only go by what Strong's says. Sometimes I think he missed it big time: for the bow at the first seal, he said it was a simple ribbon! (If I remember correctly who wrote that.)

Edited December 31, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I see you defend the nonexistence of the word 'only' in reference to 'the things which are'. I agree with you. We should be this precise. We also need to apply this to the above.

The above is not necessarily chronological. The text says, "And I saw..." This is not saying one follows the other but only relates what was observed. 

Compare:

 

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, 

Then the second angel sounded his trumpet,

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, 

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, 

Clearly this is chronological as the text says 'Then...', meaning next and is directly connected to the actions of sounding trumps. This does not appear in Rev 8:1

I agree that the 7th seal is followed by John seeing the seven angels with seven trumps. What is not in the text is 'when'. It's been assumed bowls follow trumps which follow seals but that is not the case; and even if it was it cannot be proven from Rev 8:1.

This is seeing the forest versus seeing only trees. Most people forget the book and concentrate on the seals. The only purpose of the seals is to seal the book. It is the BOOK that is most important. John did not write it in words, but it should be understood, as soon as the 7 seals are opened, what comes next is what is INSIDE THE BOOK. I am convinced the BOOK contains the entire 70th week of Daniel. For sure the trumpets are what is written inside the book. How then can any trumpet be sounded unless all 7 seals are opened? As I said before, we don't come up with the same thoughts after reading these verses. 

Anyway, John wrote it. If you think it needs rearranging, it would be up to you to prove WHY it must be rearranged. As far as I know, no one has ever come up with a good reason to rearrange. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

"

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

"And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind."..."And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

Matt 24: "The sun will be darkened,"

Rev 6:    "the sun became black"

Matt 24: "the stars will fall from the sky,"

Rev 6:    "and the stars of the sky fell to the earth"

Matt 24: "the moon will not give its light"

Rev 6:    "the whole moon turned blood red"

Matt 24: "all the tribes of the earth will mourn"

Rev 6:    "“Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" Their lamentation fulfilling Matt 24:30, "...all the tribes of the earth will mourn..."

So unless you are saying this happen twice then Matt 24:30-31 and Rev 6:12-17 depict the same event occurring after the midpoint of the week and after GT.

It's the same in Joel 2:10, "The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:" Which comes after...[I'm just going to highlight the main points for brevity.]

Joel 1

The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

Hear this, you old men, and give ear, all you inhabitants of the land. Has this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?

For a nation is come up on my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he has the cheek teeth of a great lion.

 

[Luke mentions Israel surrounded by armies]

The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.

[This occurs at the midpoint and has already happened]

The field is wasted, the land mourns; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languishes.

[This is the first trump, "Then the first angel sounded his trumpet...A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."]

Be you ashamed, O you farmers; howl, O you vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.

[This is the first trump again. Joel makes it very clear the first trump has occurred either in time with the A of D or shortly after, and before the Wrath of the Almighty comes]

 

The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languishes; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

[Can't get away from the first trump and it's effects.]

Gird yourselves, and lament, you priests: howl, you ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, you ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withheld from the house of your God.

[The meat and drink offering is cut off. This is the midpoint again and it has already occurred as has the 1st trump.]

Sanctify you a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry to the LORD,

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

[The day of the Lord in imminent but has not yet begun.]

Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yes, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

[Again it's clear the A of D is past.]

How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yes, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

O LORD, to you will I cry: for the fire has devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame has burned all the trees of the field.

The beasts of the field cry also to you: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire has devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

[This is the first trump as well as the 3rd trump. "Then the first angel sounded his trumpet... A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass." Then the third angel sounded his trumpet...A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters. Only one example where a river is dried up is at the sixth bowl but that's specific where Joel is not. And 'dried up' here is more like 'strength is taken' from what I can tell; there is still waters but they are no longer life giving in effect rendering them 'dry' of life.]

All this contradicts the idea that the 6th seal begins the week. Joel is telling us the midpoint is passed, the 1st trump has sounded and the effects are brutal and the day of the Lord is yet to commence. This aligns with the outline of Matt 24 and helps us to set the order of things in Revelation. So then by this point in the end of the age the A of D has occurred and three trumps have sounded.  This also fits well with the gathering at the 7th trump as Joel tells us the day of the Lord has not occurred but 3 trumps have sounded with 3 more on the way. This would then arrange these occurrences at the 5th seal as GT and the death of the martyrs occurs after the A of D. By Joel's account we are between the 5th and 6th seal where at least 3 trumps have been heard.

Of course I am saying they happen twice. And I am also saying these signs are not the same - they are different. When do we see the book look blood red? It is at an eclipse. When does the sun appear black as sackcloth? It is only during an eclipse. In either of these cases the sun and moon MUST BE SEEN. This is not so for the signs after the tribulation. There the sun and moon are "darkened."  Look what Strong's says: "of heavenly bodies as deprived of light"  Could we see the sun of it was producing no light? Could we see the moon if the sun was dark? Notice also the stars are not giving any light. What God is speaking of here is TOTAL DARKNESS!  I was living in Idaho when Mt Saint Helens blew her top. In the early afternoon it got dark as night - all the street lights came on. I am convinced, just before Jesus comes, He is going to turn out the lights - total darkness! HOW? Of course God can do this a number of ways, but my guess will be volcanoes. An earthquake that shakes mountains down into the earth will probably set off all volcanoes. This could be one way God would do it. 

Again I have to go back to the trees vs the forest. If we get the big picture and really believe the word as written, the 6th seal signs come before the week, while the Matthew 24 signs come after the week has finished. Why not just believe John? Did you know that Joel shows both signs? Joel 2 shows the 6th seal sign, but Joel 3 shows the after trib signs. Make no mistake here: these signs in the sun and moon will come TWICE, first as the sign for the Day of the Lord,  then 7 years later as the sign for the coming of Our Lord.

[This is the first trump again. Joel makes it very clear the first trump has occurred either in time with the A of D or shortly after, and before the Wrath of the Almighty comes]  I disagree. John has chapters where Joel has verses. It is wise then go form doctrine from the most complete narrative. John is VERY clear that many events happen between the 6th seal and the 7th vial that ends the week.  By the way, Joel's first message was first for THAT TIME PERIOD and secondly for our future. 

I will agree that Joel makes reference to the first trump with the grass burnt up and 1/3 of the trees. My point is, we can find accurate timing much clearer in Revelation.  In short, we disagree.

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The first seal can not have been opened in 33 AD as you claim because it takes place AFTER "the things which are" which we both agree were things going on in 95 AD. You are confusing reality with what was in the vision. John saw the vision in 95 AD, but INSIDE that vision were events from 60 years or so previous to John's time: Jesus under the earth, Jesus risen from the dead, Jesus ascending into heaven.

After means after.  Done with this nonsense.  Have a great life.