Will pregnancy and toddlers/children vanish when Rapture happens ?

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I did go into it. You must have skimmed thru the post and missed it, though I can't see how.   I outlined the hermeneutic principles pretty well.

 

Of course!   Even Satan can transform himself to an angel of light!   This character coming on the scene is the anti-christ.... or more appropriately from the Greek.... pseudo christ, which mean in place of Christ, substitute for Christ, etc.... which means he will present himself as a peace loving, let's all get along and sing Kumbaya sort of guy which promises to deliver peace and safety.  Maybe even the savior of the environment stuff.  

You know....... 1 Thessalonians 5:3...

1 Thessalonians 5:3 (NKJV) For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.  

Once this guy sucks up all power via peaceful means, confirming some sort of covenant with Israel that likely is something that guarantees their safety in some way, then the hammer will fall.  Once he has consolidated his power, In his arrogance and blasphemy he will violate that covenant as per Daniel 9:27.

Probably why you were not consulted when the Father gave the Revelation to Yeshua, who then gave it to the angel, who then gave it to John.  When the Messiah physically returns to earth, the scripture says He will be riding a white horse..... Revelation 19:11.   If Satan is going to have his proxy ride in and present himself as the Messiah, then in keeping with scripture, that character would come riding on a white horse also.   It is unlikely that he will actually be riding a real white horse, but the Lord is emphasizing via the first seal description that this pseudo Messiah will impersonate the Messiah in just about every way to draw many unto him.   Do you not remember  2 Thessalonians 2:4.....

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJV) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I did go into it. You must have skimmed thru the post and missed it, though I can't see how.   I outlined the hermeneutic principles pretty well.

 

Of course!   Even Satan can transform himself to an angel of light!   This character coming on the scene is the anti-christ.... or more appropriately from the Greek.... pseudo christ, which mean in place of Christ, substitute for Christ, etc.... which means he will present himself as a peace loving, let's all get along and sing Kumbaya sort of guy which promises to deliver peace and safety.  Maybe even the savior of the environment stuff.  

You know....... 1 Thessalonians 5:3...

1 Thessalonians 5:3 (NKJV) For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.  

Once this guy sucks up all power via peaceful means, confirming some sort of covenant with Israel that likely is something that guarantees their safety in some way, then the hammer will fall.  Once he has consolidated his power, In his arrogance and blasphemy he will violate that covenant as per Daniel 9:27.

Probably why you were not consulted when the Father gave the Revelation to Yeshua, who then gave it to the angel, who then gave it to John.  When the Messiah physically returns to earth, the scripture says He will be riding a white horse..... Revelation 19:11.   If Satan is going to have his proxy ride in and present himself as the Messiah, then in keeping with scripture, that character would come riding on a white horse also.   It is unlikely that he will actually be riding a real white horse, but the Lord is emphasizing via the first seal description that this pseudo Messiah will impersonate the Messiah in just about every way to draw many unto him.   Do you not remember  2 Thessalonians 2:4.....

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJV) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I certainly read what you wrote. I will give you this much: you have done much better than one commentary that said "bow" is a simply ribbon!  How could ANYONE get a ribbon from Toxon?  I did look up "bow" as in rainbow in the Septuagint and it too used the Greek word "toxon." 

Sorry, but I cannot accept your theory that this is the covenant with many and bow is the sign of the covenant. It goes back to chapters 4 & 5. When people miss the intent of the Author there, they will then be like dominos falling and everything built on that will be off. One MUST have a good foundation to build on. The truth is, your theory is 2000 years off. Seal 1 was opened as soon as jesus ascended. The bow then must just represent spiritual warfare with the arrows being the Word of God.  

Of course!   Even Satan can transform himself to an angel of light!   Ha! Now I've got it! You imagine that God allowed Satan to pick this color! OF COURSE Satan would choose to color himself white! 

Sorry, my friend, but GOD chose this color. If you wish to think that God would use white in Revelation 16 times for righteousness and once for something evil, you have that right! But you will be very wrong. If I were you I would camp out on chapters 4 & 5 until you can answer the questions Jesus asked me. Remember what He told me: "Until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision."

Your next problem is now you have the Antichrist limited to 1/4 the earth. But that is not at ALL the intent of the author. It will be the demonic forces trying to stop the advance of the Gospel that will be limited to 1/4 the earth.  You have yet another problem: the Red horse and rider ride with the black horse rider and these two ride with the pale horse rider and THESE are who is limited to 1/4 the earth. But since you imagine that the first seal is the Antichrist, WHY did John not show him LEADING this pack? 

No, sorry, there are too many holes in your theory.  I am just not going to believe that God would use white 16 times for righteousness and then once for evil. It is just never going to happen. I am not going to believe this seal will be opened some time in our future when I know it was opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Therefore you and I will continue to disagree on this.

[iamlamad]

On 11/30/2019 at 6:08 PM, missmuffet said:

I don't believe in out of body experiences. Everyone has a choice to belief as they want to believe. Life if full of choices. 

Then you have to tear this out of your bible: 

2 Cor. 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Consider that Paul was stoned to death - by experts at stoning. Without much doubt, Paul was killed, and His spirit left his body and went up to heaven - EXACTLY where Paul said: absent from the body is present with the Lord.

When or if you die YOU will have an out of body experience: Angels will escort your spirit to heaven. Or don't you believe this?

[iamlamad]

On 11/30/2019 at 12:15 PM, Alive said:

This is a logical fallacy. I am sorry and mean no offense and I understand where you are coming from.

For myself---I simply don't know when He will appear---and yet I look for Him.

Please explain where logic fails here. If you hang around here for long you will find people that are SURE they will see the antichrist first. How then can they be expecting Christ? I would think their belief system would get in the way.

[iamlamad]

On 11/30/2019 at 11:43 AM, Alive said:

You may be right about the rapture timing, but you are certainly not correct about this point.

God is not so petty and He knows well the confusion among well meaning hearts on this issue.

It seems EVERYTHING we get from heaven must come through faith. Well, God knows what is in everyone's heart. 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but I cannot accept your theory that this is the covenant with many and bow is the sign of the covenant. It goes back to chapters 4 & 5. When people miss the intent of the Author there, they will then be like dominos falling and everything built on that will be off. One MUST have a good foundation to build on. The truth is, your theory is 2000 years off. Seal 1 was opened as soon as jesus ascended. The bow then must just represent spiritual warfare with the arrows being the Word of God.  

Likewise, I will have to just disagree with your assertion.  The design of Revelation laid out in... 

Revelation 1:19 (NKJV) Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

The things which you have seen is written in previous verses. 

The things which are is the churches,  Revelation 2 - 3.  

The things which will take place after this (Greek - meta houtos) is the things which will take place after the churches.

And Revelation 4 starts out with the same Greek phrase... meta houtos.  It is the trigger phrase spoken of by Messiah Himself, as delivered to John by the angel, in Revelation 1:19.    Literal translation....   "after these".  The "these" would be the previous object... the churches.  

So the outline of Revelation does not support you view.  And Seal One could not have been opened as soon as Yeshua (Jesus) ascended, as the church was not yet formally conceived until Shavuot (Pentacost).  And Revelation 4 begins by setting the marker.... after these (the churches).

Edited December 2, 2019 by OldCoot

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then you have to tear this out of your bible: 

2 Cor. 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Consider that Paul was stoned to death - by experts at stoning. Without much doubt, Paul was killed, and His spirit left his body and went up to heaven - EXACTLY where Paul said: absent from the body is present with the Lord.

When or if you die YOU will have an out of body experience: Angels will escort your spirit to heaven. Or don't you believe this?

God allowed that. That is an exceptional case. When a person dies their soul goes to heaven if they are not a believer their soul goes to Hades. Their body remains in the grave unless it is the rapture of the Church. I believe that is the the only time the soul leaves the body. You have to be very careful with these NDE or out of body experiences. Satan can make it look real when it is only a demonic experience. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by missmuffet

[OldCoot]

It was brought out that those who do not accept this early removal/rapture position will be left behind when it happens.  Well, as best I can tell, eschatology is not a condition of justification.  And I am pretty sure it is those who are justified (part of the Body of Christ) that will be included.  

That is the one thing that gets overlooked. This early removal / rapture idea is pretty inclusive.  If one is redeemed by Yeshua, then they already have their bus ticket for the trip out of here. 

Where, I feel, the big problem lies is that the confusion about this removal/rapture is not understanding what the tribulation period is all about and the the church is all about.  It is more of a lack of understanding Ecclesiology than Eschatology.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, missmuffet said:

God allowed that. That is an exceptional case. When a person dies their soul goes to heaven if they are not a believer their soul goes to Hades. Their body remains in the grave unless it is the rapture of the Church. I believe that is the the only time the soul leaves the body. You have to be very careful with these NDE or out of body experiences. Satan can make it look real when it is only a demonic experience. 

There are countless people who have died and gone to heaven, and got prayed back to their body.

I have met Gary L Wood, and have heard his testimony three times. I have heard Jessie Duplantis' testimony once in person and over and over on tape. I have read many books on others who have been both to heaven and to hell and came back to tell. If these testimonies agree with the bible, WHY NOT believe them? Paul Testified of His supernatural experiences. Some of these cases, like Colton Burpo is proven because he knew things he could know only if he had been to heaven. 

Take Gary L Wood: he died in an auto accident; his neck was broken at the top: doctors say NO ONE can live with their neck broken there. His voice box was sliced in two and crushed.  In short, he was pronounced DEAD. But his spirit went to heaven. His sister was in the car with him but she was not hurt. She would not allow him to die, and prayed his spirit back. Jesus told him in heaven he would have to go back, for his sister was praying. Doctors have come to hear his testimony, to prove him a fake; but when they see the xrays of his broken neck, they suddenly realized he was telling the truth!

After he came back to his body in the hospital, of course he could not talk: is voice box had been sliced and crushed. Imagine the nurse then that came in and Gary said "Good morning" to her! She dropped her food tray and ran for a doctor!

All I am saying is, you are missing out on being blessed by rejecting such testimonies. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Likewise, I will have to just disagree with your assertion.  The design of Revelation laid out in... 

Revelation 1:19 (NKJV) Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

The things which you have seen is written in previous verses. 

The things which are is the churches,  Revelation 2 - 3.  

The things which will take place after this (Greek - meta houtos) is the things which will take place after the churches.

And Revelation 4 starts out with the same Greek phrase... meta houtos.  It is the trigger phrase spoken of by Messiah Himself, as delivered to John by the angel, in Revelation 1:19.    Literal translation....   "after these".  The "these" would be the previous object... the churches.  

So the outline of Revelation does not support you view.  And Seal One could not have been opened as soon as Yeshua (Jesus) ascended, as the church was not yet formally conceived until Shavuot (Pentacost).  And Revelation 4 begins by setting the marker.... after these (the churches).

Write the...things which will take place after this.

Question: Did John write of "things" that would take place after John's life - future to him? YOU KNOW he did!  You are trying to add to the book by inserting and ONLY. God did NOT say write ONLY of thies that will take place after this.

John used the phrase, "after this" or a similar phrase 6 times in the book, always as a transitional phrase when God changed subjects in the vision.  Here God had finished dictating what John was to write to each church, and now God was changing directions in the vision.

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Let's be very real here: WHO was caught up into heaven? John said "I looked..." JOHN was caught up - around 95 AD. In other words, STILL CHURCH AGE, and even early church age. This is proof that "after this" carries no special meaning other than as a transition. 

"after these".  The "these" would be the previous object... the churches.   NOT SO!  You have to put yourself in John's shoes here:  John is telling us that AFTER God finished dictating the messages to those churches, then God began to show him other things.  John is telling us exactly what happened, one thing after another. 

It is a very simple concept: inside a vision looking back in time. Nothing difficult at all. John saw Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room, having just been slain. He ascended very shortly after rising from the dead. He waited to send Mary away. Then He ascended. John saw that moment in the vision. And also at that moment He sent the Holy Spirit down.  But WHEN? Go back to the gospels are read it:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Rev. 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Jesus ascended back into the throne room and John got to see it - looking back in time - inside a vision.

Just common sense would agree: we see that at the 7th trumpet Satan is cast down and Jesus gets the Kingdoms of the word back.  This is a HUGE HUGE event! Satan had been the god of this word from Genesis on to now. And this process of arriving at the 7th trumpet so this can happen starts with this book with seven seals. God had waited for 4000 years to get those seals removed. It happened as soon as it possibly could happen, and that is when Jesus ascended.  I can assure you, Jesus got that book into His hands as soon as He ascended - exactly as this scripture passage shows us. The only problem is, you have not understood it - yet.

It is no mystery: God wanted to introduce John to this book, and its great importance - but God CHOSE to begin while the book was still in the Father's hands. That was before Christ arose. Therefore God had to show John some history - and He did.

To fulfill "things that must be hereafter," from the 6th seal on almost everything is STILL hereafter. 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by iamlamad