CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION

[Resurrection Priest]

1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

The Torah sure is a lot of things ! Mainly , it is “ weak” and “ beggarly”

Excuse me?  The Torah of Moses is NOT "weak" or "beggarly".  It is the history of God's progressive revelation of Himself in this world.  It should NOT be thrown away like some useless trash. 

The animal sacrifices performed by earthly priests were "weak" and "beggarly" only when COMPARED WITH God's perfect Lamb, and the Heavenly ministry of our High Priest. 

In themselves, they were a PERFECT PROPHECY - something only God Himself could have conceived of, or commanded. 

That perfect prophecy leads to Jesus the Christ our Savior. 

I think we must be careful how we refer to the Torah. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Take it up with Paul.....he said it, not me.....

“The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God” ( Hebrews 7:18-19 )

The solution to the chasm that sin created is not the Law. As this passage clearly declares using it in this way is weak, useless and ineffective. Paul called the Law the ministry of death ( II Corinthians 3:7 ). So relying on it to bring us into fellowship with God, bridging the gap caused by sin, only brings us death and condemnation.

On the other hand, if it is used in accordance to its true purpose then we will be justified by it. “the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law” ( Galatians 3:24-25 ). The Law was set aside when Jesus ushered in the New Covenant because it was useless in bringing a person into perfect fellowship with God ( Hebrews 7:11 ). The Law defined our sin in relation to God’s holiness. So in essence it accused us before God, bringing further separation instead of reconciliation. Which is why Paul told Timothy, the Law was not made for the righteous man, but for sinners ( I Timothy 1:8-10 ). It showed us the need for a savior. So trusting in Christ to save us is the better hope that this passage is describing by which we draw near to God for reconciliation.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Folks I got a serious and direly needed thing to say .  IF ANYONE is accusing the LAW as BEING SIN .  THEY ARE SAYING THAT GOD HIMSELF was capable

OF SIN .  HE GAVE THE LAW folks .  HE GAVE THE LAW .     I better never hear one person EVER say again that what GOD gave to moses WAS SIN .

NEVER EVER ,   EVER once again .   Folks been listening to way too many dead end preachers . 

Very true!

Thanks for emphasizing this important fact....

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Now that You no longer equate Jesus and the Torah, Let's look at your next misconception. We Who teach Grace do not negate The Torah In the least bit, But We fulfill the Torah Through Christ Jesus who fulfilled the requirements on the cross. The only thing we have to do is Rest in HIS finished Work on the Cross. So We No longer offer sacrifices on an alter in the Temple, But we rest on His sacrifice on the cross, "once for all" By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Heb. 10:10-14)

Sanctification comes from Resting in Him and His finished work, Not from fleshly obedience, But the Torah being written Upon the heart, By submitting to the Work of the Holy Ghost in us. Using our power and might to fight sin will always lead to failure, But trusting in the Holy Ghost to sanctify you leads the Law being written on the heart. Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. (zech. 4:6B) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cor.2:5) for when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Cor. 12:10b)

Our strength to obey, and our mind's will to obey are the things we need to get out of the way in order for the Sanctification of the Holy Ghost to begin. In Our weakness is when we overcome, and our righteousness will then exceed that of the Pharisees who keep the letter of The Law, but not the Spirit of the Law. If You can grasp this one distinction you will be well on your way to understanding what it means to Abide in the vine (John 15:1-5), and as Jesus said therein, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:5)

Your own strength and will to obey the Law can not lead you to righteousness, But Christ Jesus can and does through the sanctification of the Holy Ghost. 

Now carefully read this prophecy and see its fulfillment here....Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. (Mal. 3:18) 

Notice, Though the Law tells us what is good and Evil, the discernment of righteousness and wickedness is lost to the Jewish People, and this is why they rejected their Messiah, When they are restored, they will once more see the distinction between righteousness and wickedness, which comes not by the Torah, But by the heart that abides in the vine. So For example, Someone keeping the Law who never committed adultery according to the law, may have committed adultery many times in their heart according to the sermon on the mount for lustfully looking upon another man's wife. Or Like David in Psalm 139:22 said he hated his enemies, which was considered a good thing according to the Torah was said of Jesus to Love your enemies, and to bless those who persecute you.... This is the difference between keeping the Torah by your own strength and will, vs the righteousness that comes by the sanctification of the Spirit. The Sooner you get your strength and will out of His Way the sooner he can have his way with you and finish the Work of sanctification in you. 

Once You see this, then all of a sudden the Torah pales in comparison to the One who... worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13)

Read Eph. 1:5-14

"Now that You no longer equate Jesus and the Torah, Let's look at your next misconception. "

It's not a misconception.  JESUS IS THE TORAH-MADE-FLESH (Jn.1:14).  In that sense, JESUS IS TORAH.

 

"We Who teach Grace do not negate The Torah In the least bit, But We fulfill the Torah Through Christ Jesus who fulfilled the requirements on the cross. "

Awesome!  I uphold that same grace.

 

"The only thing we have to do is Rest in HIS finished Work on the Cross."

There's MUCH WORK to do!  We don't just sit around, never doing anything besides "resting in his finished work on the cross".

Jas.2:24.

 

"So We No longer offer sacrifices on an alter in the Temple"

Guess you forgot tell Paul!  Paul CONDONES a sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21).

You should likewise uphold this sacrifice-affirming model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9), not oppose it.

 

"We No longer offer sacrifices on an alter in the Temple, But we rest on His sacrifice on the cross,"

False dichotomy.  Jesus desires both.....SACRIFICES (Mt.5:24;Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7;Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20) AND His blood to inaugurate the New Covenant for us (Lk.22:20).

After all, Jesus comes to RESTORE those very sacrifices you claim we should  no longer offer (Mal.3:4).

And you've contradicted the pattern of the 1st-century church, where Paul (Ac.21), and THOUSANDS of Christians (Ac.21:20) and even Christian Priests (Ac.6:7) partook in sacrifice-laden Torah portions.

And you've contradicted the prophets which PROMISE that sacrifices will return (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Mal.3:4;etc.)

 

" By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Yes, Jesus' Blood alone takes our sins away.  Agreed.

 

"And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Heb. 10:10-14)"

Awesome!

 

"Sanctification comes from Resting in Him and His finished work, Not from fleshly obedience"

FLESHLY OBEDIENCE is an oxymoron! The flesh CAN NOT obey Torah (Rom.8:7).

Proper OBEDIENCE is not FLESHLY!  OBEDIENCE is of the SPIRIT who testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

After all, we are sanctified in the Spirit (1Cor.6:11), and the SPIRIT opposes the FLESH (Rom.8:13), and the FLESH opposes Torah-obedience (Rom.8:7), so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience, so the Spirit sanctifies us in Torah-OBEDIENCE.

Remember?  We are sanctified by truth (Jn.17:17); TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142).  Thus, we are sanctified in TORAH-OBEDIENT TRUTH.  Not Torah-OPPOSITION.  Not Torah-disobedience.  But in OBEDIENCE.

 

" But the Torah being written Upon the heart, By submitting to the Work of the Holy Ghost in us. "

Exactly!  And TORAH UPON YOUR HEART means you OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

After all, that's what Paul preaches!  TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

And that includes sacrifices, when properly observable.

 

"Using our power and might to fight sin will always lead to failure"

Yes.  Works without the Spirit is bad.

Works without faith is bad.

Works without grace is bad.

Works without the Blood is bad.

It's a package deal!

Thus we are justified by TORAH (Rom.2:13) AND Faith (Rom.5:1) AND Grace (Rom.3:24) AND the Blood (Rom.5:9) AND the Spirit (1Cor.6:11) and WORKS (Jas.2:24).

ALL.

TOGETHER.

And we must overcome sin....and sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:24).  Thus we must STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34), meaning OBEY TORAH (and that includes sacrifices, when properly observable).

After all, Paul applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16)...no exceptions for sacrifices.

 

"But trusting in the Holy Ghost to sanctify you leads the Law being written on the heart."

Excellent.  The Spirit writes Torah upon our hearts SO THAT WE OBEY IT!

Even sacrifices.

Agreed.

 

"Our strength to obey, and our mind's will to obey are the things we need to get out of the way in order for the Sanctification of the Holy Ghost to begin."

NOT!  We love God with our MIND and STRENGTH....it's not a mindless activity without exercise of our strength.

After all, Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37).  And Dt. 6 (in context!) requires ALL Torah (Dt.6:5,25). 

So, love requires OUR MINDS AND STRENGTH....and John agrees (with Jesus) that love requires all Torah (1Jn.5:3).

 

"and our righteousness will then exceed that of the Pharisees who keep the letter of The Law, but not the Spirit of the Law. "

Yes....and this is TORAH-OBEDIENT righteousness required by Jesus in Mt. 5:20.

 

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:5)"

Good!  The FRUIT includes LOVE (Gal.5:22-23) which requires TORAH (Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3).

The FRUIT includes JOY (Gal.5:22-23); we REJOICE in Torah (Ps. 119:162).  Simchat Torah!

The FRUIT includes PEACE (Gal.5:22-23); we have peace if we LOVE Torah (Ps.119:165), not disobey it.

The FRUIT includes FAITHFULNESS (Gal.5:22-23); FAITHFULNESS is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Ps.119:30,86,138;Dt.32:20;Rom.3:27).

The FRUIT includes GOODNESS (Gal.5:22-23); Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  So OBEY Torah!

And Yes...ABIDE in Him....AND!  Let His WORDS also abide in YOU (Jn.15:7)....thus Mt.5:19 should abide in you....that's ALL TORAH abiding in you!

 

"Your own strength and will to obey the Law can not lead you to righteousness, But Christ Jesus can and does through the sanctification of the Holy Ghost. "

Yes.

 

"Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. (Mal. 3:18) "

Nice!  Let's SERVE GOD!  By the way, those who SERVE GOD are those who OBEY TORAH (Jos.22:5).

The RIGHTEOUS are those who OBEY TORAH (Dt.6:25;2Ti.3:16).

The WICKED are those who DISOBEY Torah (Ps.119:53,61;Pr.28:4).

Paul serves in the Spirit (Rom.7:6).  Serves what?  TORAH! (Rom.7:25).

So, let's be righteous (not wicked) and serve Torah in the Spirit, in obedience to God!

 

"the discernment of righteousness and wickedness is lost to the Jewish People"

Well...not ALL of the Jewish people....there were THOUSANDS who obeyed Torah AND obeyed Yeshua (as we should, Ac.21:20)...

And there are HUNDREDS of Thousands now (Jewish AND non-Jewish), if not a few million, who have a better understanding of obedience to Torah in Yeshua, as we should.

 

" When they are restored, they will once more see the distinction between righteousness and wickedness, which comes not by the Torah, But by the heart that abides in the vine. "

Well, the "heart that abides in the vine" WILL obey Torah!  After all, the VINE requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

And when WE are restored (Ac.3:21), WE will again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8) when we return to inherit the land promised to ALL OF US as believers (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:6).

 

"So For example, Someone keeping the Law who never committed adultery according to the law, may have committed adultery many times in their heart according to the sermon on the mount for lustfully looking upon another man's wife."

Committing adultery in your heart is ALSO anti-Torah.

The law does NOT approve "committing adultery in your heart".  Jesus was simply showing how to apply Torah commands into your personal life, just in case you didn't already "get it".

It wasn't new!  It was just a proper application.

 

"Or Like David in Psalm 139:22 said he hated his enemies, which was considered a good thing according to the Torah was said of Jesus to Love your enemies, and to bless those who persecute you...."

Wrong again!  Ever heard of a "love-hate relationship"?

You can love your enemies...and kill them too, if necessary.

LOVE and HATE are NOT mutually exclusive.

God is LOVE (1Jn.4:8)...AND!  God also HATES (Mal.1:3).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"This is the difference between keeping the Torah by your own strength and will, vs the righteousness that comes by the sanctification of the Spirit."

No....the "love-hate" issue is NOT the difference.

The difference is whether you function under LAW+GRACE+FAITH+SPIRIT+WORKS+BLOOD, or whether you EXCLUDE essential elements such as these.

If you got the package deal, then your good!

If you got law alone (Gal.5:4-5), you're bad.

If you got faith alone (Jas.2:24), you're bad.

If you got Spirit alone, you're bad (Heb.10:15-16;Is.59:20-21;Rom.8:7,13;Jn.6:63+Mt.5:19).

If you got works alone, you're bad (Eph.2:9).

Etc.

So we receive the PACKAGE DEAL....ALL...TOGETHER.

That's the proper conception of righteous sanctification in the Spirit.

It's not about terminating your own "strength and will and mind"....

It's about making sure your your own "strength and will and mind" is in proper alignment with LAW+GRACE+FAITH+SPIRIT+WORKS+BLOOD.

But maybe we already agree on this one....

 

"Once You see this, then all of a sudden the Torah pales in comparison to the One who... worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13)"

The Torah IS the One who works in us!  Jesus PERSONIFIES Torah....Jesus EMBODIES Torah....thus Jesus IS The Torah in this sense (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17).

So, no need to minimize Torah relative to God....they are unified!

After all, the GOD who works in us is the GOD who leads us to OBEY TORAH...

Because TORAH is His will (Ps.40:8).

Torah is GOOD (Rom.7:12).

 

"Read Eph. 1:5-14"

ok!  Let's start at verse 1!

Eph.1:1 Paul upholds Christ (who requires Torah, Mt.5:19)

Eph.1:1 Paul upholds God's will (which includes Torah, Ps. 40:8).

Eph.1:1 Paul upholds FAITHFULNESS (which is of Torah, Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138;Rom.3:27;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

Eph.1:2 Paul upholds GRACE.  Grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  The HUMBLE obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

Eph.1:2 Paul upholds the Father (who requires Torah, Dt.1:3;5:27-33), and the SON (who requires Torah, Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:27;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Eph.1:3 Paul upholds the Father (who requires Torah, Dt.1:3;5:27-33), and the SON (who requires Torah, Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:27;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Eph.1:3 Paul upholds SPIRITUAL blessings.  Torah-obedience brings those blessings (Dt.30:15-19) which are spiritual (Rom.7:14) in Christ (Eph.1:3).

Eph.1:4 Paul upholds HOLINESS.  We be HOLY by OBEYING TORAH (Lev.11 cited at 1Pe.1:16).  After all, Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).

Eph.1:4 Paul expects us to be BLAMELESS...and that's TORAH! (Dt.18:13)

Eph.1:4 Paul upholds LOVE.  Love entails TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19;Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3).

Eph.1:5 Paul identifies us as SONS.  That's ISRAEL LANGUAGE (Ex.4:22).  And we Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4).

Eph.1:5 Paul upholds CHRIST who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Eph 1:6 Paul upholds GRACE.  Grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  The HUMBLE obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13)

Eph. 1:7 Paul upholds GRACE.  Grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  The HUMBLE obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13)

Eph. 1:7 Paul upholds the BLOOD by which we are JUSTIFIED (Rom.5:9).  AND, justification is a Torah-inclusive package deal (we are justified by TORAH (Rom.2:13) AND Faith (Rom.5:1) AND Grace (Rom.3:24) AND the Blood (Rom.5:9) AND the Spirit (1Cor.6:11) and WORKS (Jas.2:24), ALL TOGETHER).

Eph.1:8 Paul upholds WISDOM.  TORAH-OBEDIENCE is our wisdom (Dt.4:6).

Eph. 1:9 Paul upholds God's will (which includes TORAH, Ps. 40:8).

Eph.1:10 Paul upholds CHRIST who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Eph.1:11 Paul upholds our forthcoming INHERITANCE (which includes the LAND, Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:6).  AND, we inherit the land in 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

Eph.1:12 Paul upholds HOPE.  And our hope is in the covenants (Eph.2:12) which are given as TORAH (e.g., Jer.31:33).

Eph.1:13 Paul upholds the MESSAGE OF TRUTH.  TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142).  So Paul's message includes TORAH.

Eph.1:13 Paul upholds the Gospel of salvation by which we are saved (1Cor.15:2), IF we hold to Paul's word of faith which he preached (1Cor.15:2).  And that's the word of FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt.30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Eph.1:13 Paul upholds BELIEVING.....just like Abraham BELIEVED...AND, Abraham also obeyed TORAHS available to him (Ge.26:5).

Eph.1:13 Paul upholds the SPIRIT.  The Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah.  Also, Heb.10:15-16.  Also Is.59:20-21 (cited at Rom.11:26-27).

Eph.1:14 Paul upholds our forthcoming INHERITANCE (which includes the LAND, Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:6).  AND, we inherit the land in 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

Eph.1:14 Paul says we are God's POSSESSION....that's ISRAEL LANGUAGE!  (Dt.4:20;9:26,29;32:9;33:12)...and we Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Eph.1:15 Paul upholds FAITH (which is of Torah, Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138;Rom.3:27;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

Eph.1:15 Paul upholds LOVE.   Love entails TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19;Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3).

 

Wow!  I never actually looked into it that carefully before....but wow!  It's dripping in Torah!

Thanks for bringing out this important passage...

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

19 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

The Torah sure is a lot of things ! Mainly , it is “ weak” and “ beggarly” and “ had NO POWER TO SAVE”. My biggest desire is to be saved....anybody else out there share in my desire? I thought so. I humbly suggest that we go to where the POWER OF GOD resides- The Gospel Of 1cor15:1-5

Add to that Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing with ANYTHiNG- especially TORAH WORSHIP and  you will “ fall from Grace” and be “ severed from the Cross Of Christ”. REST in the Gospel or God will consider you in a state of “ disobedience and UNBELIEF”. Serious stuff.....don’t put your Salvation in jeopardy by trifling with the Gospel Of Jesus Christ by being a Modern-Day Judaizer .That would be anyone that adds to Grace with Works of the Law or ,or in other words, Works Of The Torah. Grace is what saves—- all the Torah is good For is to  “ shut your mouth up” and show you your NEED for that Grace.The Torah shut my mouth years ago....how about you?

 

 

"The Torah sure is a lot of things ! Mainly "

Mainly?  You just made that up.....Scripture does NOT say "mainly".....

And you IGNORED the many pro-Torah Biblical arguments I just cited....I wonder why?

And OF COURSE the law is weak to save without faith.  Agreed!

That's why we are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) AND FAITH (Rom.5:1).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"My biggest desire is to be saved"

With eternal life?  Awesome!  Jesus says Torah-obedience is sufficient (Lk.10:25-28)....and things like visiting the sick and those in prison is sufficient (Mt.25:31-46).

After all, Jesus expects you to obey (Mt.5:19) and LIVE (Mt.4:4 citing Dt.8:3 referencing Torah).

 

"I humbly suggest...."

Awesome!  I'm GLAD you are humble.  God gives grace to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); AND, humble people obey TORAH (Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13;Nu.12:3).

 

"the POWER OF GOD resides- The Gospel Of 1cor15:1-5"

Ah yes!  ===>IF<=== you hold fast the word Paul preached (1Cor.15:2), which is TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

After all, the GOSPEL is the POWER OF GOD (Rom.1:6) preached by Paul in TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8;citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

 

"Add to that Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing with ANYTHiNG"

Scripture adds A LOT to justification!

Remember?

We are justified by GRACE(Rom.3:24)+FAITH(Rom.5:1)+LAW(Rom.2:13)+BLOOD(Rom.5:9)+SPIRIT(1Cor.6:11)+WORKS(Jas.2:24)+CHRIST'S NAME(1Cor.6:11).

So, your "grace plus nothing" theology is CLEARLY unbiblical.

 

"especially TORAH WORSHIP and  you will “ fall from Grace”"

Jesus IS Torah (Jn.1:14)....it's ok to worship Jesus (Jn.20:28).

And, "fallen from grace" refers to those who seek justification by law WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5)....of COURSE that's bad....I oppose that too.

After all, we are not justified by law without faith.

Rather, We are justified by GRACE(Rom.3:24)+FAITH(Rom.5:1)+LAW(Rom.2:13)+BLOOD(Rom.5:9)+SPIRIT(1Cor.6:11)+WORKS(Jas.2:24)+CHRIST'S NAME(1Cor.6:11).

ALL.

TOGETHER.

NOT law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

NOT faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But ALL.

TOGETHER.

 

"REST in the Gospel or God will consider you in a state of “ disobedience and UNBELIEF”. "

The GOSPEL is the word of TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (citing Dt.30:14 at Rom.10:8).

FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).  Jesus was not lying.

 

"a Modern-Day Judaizer ."

Agreed.  Judaizing is BAD.  Remember Peter's hypocrisy?  That was BAD!

 

"That would be anyone that adds to Grace with Works of the Law or ,or in other words, Works Of The Torah."

OOPS!  James says we are justified by WORKS (Jas.2:24)....even though you don't want to believe that.

 

"Grace is what saves"

Jesus saves too! (Mt.1:21).  And we are saved from SIN (Mt.1:21), and SIN is TORAH-disobedience (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4), which means we now OBEY TORAH (not SIN!)

He saved us from Torah-disobedience! (Mt.1:21)

That's why we OBEY!

Of course!  He requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"all the Torah is good For is to  “ shut your mouth up” and show you your NEED for that Grace."

OOPS!  You're just making things up again...STOP.

Torah has MANY functions.....not just to "shut your  mouth up".

Remember?

Torah is HOLY (Rom.7:12); be HOLY (1Pe.1:16) means OBEY TORAH!

Torah is RIGHTEOUS (Rom.7:12); DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7) means OBEY TORAH, or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Torah is GOOD (Rom.7:12).  Do GOOD (Gal.6:10) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is SPIRITUAL (Rom.7:14).  Seek and desire the SPIRITUAL (1Cor.14:1) thus entails obeying TORAH.

Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) thus means OBEY TORAH.

The New Covenant inaugurated in CHRIST'S BLOOD (Lk.22:20) is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:6).  So OBEY the Torah of the New Covenant which Christ's shed His blood to inaugurate for you!

Torah brings PEACE (Ps.119:165); that's a fruit of the Spirit! (Gal.5:22-23)

Torah is our JOY (Ps.119:162); that's a fruit of the Spirit! (Gal.5:22-23)

Torah is of FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138); that's a fruit of the Spirit! (Gal.5:22-23)

Torah is obeyed in LOVE (Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3;Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19); that's a fruit of the Spirit! (Gal.5:22-23)

Torah exhibits GOODNESS (Rom.7:12); that's a fruit of the Spirit! (Gal.5:22-23)

Jesus' words are SPIRIT (Jn.6:63); Jesus' words include ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19); thus, Torah is the Spirit of Holiness spoken by Jesus!

And sure enough, the SPIRIT leads us to OBEY TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21;Rom.8:7,13).

And again, GRACE is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3).

 

"The Torah shut my mouth years ago....how about you?"

Agreed!  Nobody can obey Torah sinlessly....GOOD THING that Christ's blood ALONE takes our sins away! (1Jn.1:7)

 

blessings...

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[Alive]

Bible Guy---you are surely the most single minded individual I have ever witnessed.

I once had a tape deck that I could set on 'repeat'.

The may have gotten the idea from you.

By all means---don't hit the 'stop' button. The earth might stop spinning.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

"Now that You no longer equate Jesus and the Torah, Let's look at your next misconception. "

It's not a misconception.  JESUS IS THE TORAH-MADE-FLESH (Jn.1:14).  In that sense, JESUS IS TORAH.

Jesus Is the Word of God (The Logos), Not the Torah, The Torah is Part of the Word, but is not the whole Word. The Word consists of the Torah, the Prophets, The Writings.... The Law and the Prophets were until John(Baptist), since then the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached. (Luke 16:16). Now we have the New Covenant in His Blood. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13)

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. (Luke 5:37) 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Jesus Is the Word of God (The Logos), Not the Torah, The Torah is Part of the Word, but is not the whole Word. The Word consists of the Torah, the Prophets, The Writings.... The Law and the Prophets were until John(Baptist), since then the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached. (Luke 16:16). Now we have the New Covenant in His Blood. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13)

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. (Luke 5:37) 

"Jesus Is the Word of God (The Logos), Not the Torah"

The LOGOS includes TORAH!  Check out Dt.31:12 (LXX):

ἐκκλησιάσας τὸν λαόν τοὺς ἄνδρας καὶ τὰς γυναῗκας καὶ τὰ ἔκγονα καὶ τὸν προσήλυτον τὸν ἐν ταῗς πόλεσιν ὑμῶν ἵνα ἀκούσωσιν καὶ ἵνα μάθωσιν φοβεῗσθαι κύριον τὸν θεὸν ὑμῶν καὶ ἀκούσονται ποιεῗν πάντας τοὺς λόγους ^G3056 τοῦ νόμου τούτου

See it?  LOGOS in reference to the WORD of ALL TORAH (Dt.31:12,LXX).

 

"The Torah is Part of the Word, but is not the whole Word"

Sure!  Thus, Torah is INCLUDED in Jesus!  Jesus includes that very substance (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17).

 

"The Word consists of the Torah, the Prophets, The Writings...."

But the TORAH is foundational to the Tanach....

The prophets are authorized by TORAH.

The writings uphold TORAH.

The TORAH is foundational....thus it passes DIRECTLY into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

" The Law and the Prophets were until John(Baptist), since then the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached. (Luke 16:16)."

Lk.16:16 does NOT state that the Law/Prophets STOPPED with John!

Lk.16:16 does NOT state that the GOSPEL was not preached prior to Lk.16:16.

Is just emphasizing that the Gospel of the Kingdom IN CHRIST is preached in fullness beginning with John.

After all, Dt. 30:1-8 is STILL UNFULFILLED....along with MUCH other prophecy..so the law and prophets did not STOP!

Also, the gospel was preached even to Abraham (Gal.3:8)....so the gospel did not START with John.

Jesus applies ALL Torah to you (Mt.5:19)....it's not terminated.

AND!  John preaches TORAH (Is.40:8) as foundational to that very Kingdom Gospel he preached!

 

"Now we have the New Covenant in His Blood. "

And that New Covenant is given as the SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16)....otherwise Jeremiah is a false prophet (given Dt.13:1-5)....you DON'T want to go there....

 

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13)"

Exactly!

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Torah was widely DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the New Covenant (Heb.8:10;10:16).

Agreed.

 

"And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. (Luke 5:37) "

And Torah is not bad wine!  It's GOOD WINE!  It's LIFE! (Dt.30:15-19;32:47)

We DRINK of Torah, even in the wilderness (1Cor.10:4)....and those who drink Torah in Christ will NEVER thirst again! (Jn.6:35).

Jesus IS the bread of life (Jn.6:35)...and that bread is TORAH (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referencing TORAH)....and it's LIFE (Dt.30:15-19;32:47) as we obey in Christ!

After all, Jesus requires NEW AND OLD (Mt.13:52)....not NEW REPLACES OLD!

Jesus comes to RESTORE the Levitical sacrifices "as it was in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4)....that's yet FUTURE.

 

So don't be surprised that the SAME Torah passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).....otherwise Jeremiah was a false prophet (Dt.13:1-5)....DON'T go there....

 

blessings....

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[TheBlade]

Forgive me if I cut in I start to get concerned when scripture is used then something is added to it that is not there. For me Christ has always been. I have never heard Him refer to Himself as the Torah but ok. I think for some when they hear Torah means only the 5 books. Yet the NT is the word also. That word became flesh. We got to see the glory of God with us. Israel knows about this "GLORY" now among us...THATS what matters. For me  Christ already died and rose. Some of those Jewish people that were saved would sin and try to go back and offer a sacrifice for that sin. God through Paul told them.. can Christ die again? There is no more sacrifice for sin. It puts Christ to open shame if they did that.

I did also read "I better not here".. ok.. who are you? You will here it from others so.. love them show them " What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Ever wonder before Christ ever came. Were the people as we are now? What did they have "written on their hearts"? Same as we do now? Was the Holy Spirit going around convicting the world of sin? I do remember a Prophet asking "and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?"  How did they know NOT to sin? My point is there was a reason for the LAW as I understand it and I can be wrong As Paul said I had not known sin but by the Law. Anyway.., just my thoughts. Please remember .. its just text and JESUS is lord! Let give HIM the Father all the glory and praise! In Yeshuas name.

[Blood Bought 1953]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Bible Guy---you are surely the most single minded individual I have ever witnessed.

I once had a tape deck that I could set on 'repeat'.

The may have gotten the idea from you.

By all means---don't hit the 'stop' button. The earth might stop spinning.

 

I don’t bother reading his “ perverting the Gospel “ Of Grace.....Paul said to distance oneself from such types and that is what  I am working on .I use these types  as “ springboards” to get the Truth of the Gospel Of Grace out there for Newbies and Lurkers.....