CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION

[Resurrection Priest]

On 12/19/2019 at 11:30 AM, BibleGuy said:

Absent from the body IMPLIES present with the Lord (not dead in the ground!) 2Cor.5:8

Folks who site that passage always seem not to notice that Paul uses metaphor for THREE states of being. 

1.   This present physical body:  “earthy house”,  “this tent”,  “in this we groan”,    “at home in the body”,    “absent from the Lord”

2.   Our new spiritual body:  “a building from God”,  “a house eternal in the heavens”,  “further clothed”  "clothed with our habitation from heaven”, 

      “mortality swallowed  up of life”,   “absent from the [physical] body”,  “present with the Lord”

3.   Without a body :  “unclothed”,  “found naked” 

Without a body, one is DEAD.

 

 

               
 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

12 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Sure....but would Jesus tell us a story that's not actually true?  

Jesus gave the prophecies in symbolism, not literal description.  Beasts with many heads, a harlot riding a beast,  a lamb to represent Himself.  Of course He used symbolism.

 

[choir loft]

On 12/19/2019 at 12:30 PM, BibleGuy said:

"Are you asserting the natural condition of man is to survive death?   If so, then you are entirely WRONG."

Of course not. 

 

"This is a simple statement that proclaims the NATURAL condition of man is to die.   Does the Bible lie or are you confused?   I submit the latter."

Then your submission is wrong!  Of COURSE humans die (Heb.9:27).

 

"Again the BIBLE, not bibleguy, asserts that ONLY GOD possesses the nature of immortality.   "

You are wrong again.  I AGREE with 1 Ti.6:16.

 

"NONE of the people you listed survived death in the occult manner you suggest."

You are wrong again.  I never suggested death in an "occult manner".

I merely proved your claim is wrong....that is, I proved that you are WRONG to claim that "NO PART of a human survives physical death".

And, the verses I cited prove that SOME PART of a human DOES survive physical death....namely, their SOUL/SPIRIT survives physical death.

Thus, your claim was wrong.

 

"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated or suggested that some part of man naturally survives death.   Repeat: nowhere."

Sure it does!  

Read AGAIN:

Moses SURVIVED: Mt.17:13.

Elijah SURVIVED: Mt.17:13.

Samuel SURVIVED: 1Sa.28:15.

Absent from the body IMPLIES present with the Lord (not dead in the ground!) 2Cor.5:8

God is the God of the LIVING (not the dead). Mt.22:32.

Thus Abraham SURVIVED (Mt.22:32;Lk.16:23).

Isaac SURVIVED (Mt.22:32).

Jacob SURVIVED (Mt.22:32).

The poor man SURVIVED (Lk.16:22).

 

CLEARLY SOME PART of these people survived (i.e., their soul/mind/spirit, and in some kind of after-life body).

They were not ANNIHILATED at their physical death.  SOMETHING survived.

Thus, you're just wrong....that's all.

 

"Every single incident YOU quoted were documented instances of those who were servants of the Most High.  Every one of them."

The rich man was NOT....Lk.16:23.

 

"Ergo your list is Biblically correct even as your assumptions are not. "

You've proven no false assumption....rather, you've proven you don't even understand my position. (again)

 

"No sinner EVER receives eternal life - even for the purpose of everlasting torment.   Such torture is not mentioned in the Bible either - despite the Nazi fantasies of some that it does."

Eternal DEATH is not eternal LIFE.  But it's STILL ETERNAL....

Annihilation is a TEMPORARY punishment.....you can't ETERNALLY punish a person who does not ETERNALLY exist!

We are in God's image...and that's an ETERNAL image....

 

And Scripture testifies against you: Jude 1:7...2Th.1:9....Mk.3:29....Mt.25:46...Mt.25:41....Rev.20:10+Rev.20:15....Is.14:15-16.....Is.14:9-10...Is.66:24...Is.1:31....Mt.3:12....Mk.9:43....plus the testimonies of many who have died and returned (including a friend of mine)....

 

"Shall the reward of the just include a front row seat in heavenly bleachers overlooking the torture of the wicked?   May it never be.  "

Shall we pretend Is. 66:24 is not true?  May it never be.

We REJOICE in the judgment of the wicked (Ps.58:10;Pr.11:10;Rev.18:20;Php.4:4 + Rev.19:11ff).

And yes, it is also sad....

 

"Man dies like dogs and weeds upon the earth.  "

Man is ETERNAL.....weeds are not.

 

"It would be good Mr. bibleguy if you spent a tithe of your effort in glorifying the gospel rather than disproving it and attempting to stomp it beneath your feet."

Let the reader determine whether I've opposed the Gospel.

By the way, I uphold ALL SCRIPTURE....so OF COURSE I've opposed NOTHING in the Bible.

But go ahead...keep hollering if you like!

 

And hey....we don't have a good track record in our conversations....you routinely misrepresent and misunderstand my position, with false accusations galore.

So I'm not optimistic about the possibility of a productive conversation here....

 

But I trust we can still be charitable in conversation.

Let's work on that.

 

blessings...

 

It would be good if you read the words of my posts and refrained from calling me a liar by using lies of your own.

I never wrote or inferred in any of my posts the matters you accuse me of.    

I could write 1 + 1 = 2 and you'd find a way to twist it into a lie.  Your level of vomitus deviation is immense.  Like a sick dog spewing industrial waste, you continually inspire others to clean up after you.  Is this your purpose or are you naturally inclined to violate the 9th commandment?   

Returning to the original theme of this thread it should be noted that:

A story in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 21, 2019 chronicled Pope Francis' Christmas message stating the Church must adapt to post-Christian west.

This implies further use of western philosophy to counter encroaching secularism.   It hasn't worked in the past and it won't work in the future.  One wonders why Pope Francis, a supposedly learned man, continues to employ failed tactics.   Philosophy never proved anything except to justify the vacillating mind of those who refer to it.  It is the sinking sand Jesus spoke of which will ultimately cause the downfall of any house upon which it is built.

Reference to God's LAW is a firm foundation upon which one may build a life, a religion, and a relationship with God.   There is no other way to built a house so that it stands.

Unfortunately licentious Christians continue to deny the efficacy of the LAW, choosing instead to justify licentiousness and rampant sin in their midst.   Subsequently they incur the wrath of God upon them and their assemblies.  (1 Peter 4:17)

The standard of God's LAW is not the same thing as legalism.   Christian churches are full of legalism in one form or another, yet continue to regard Jews and Jewish LAW as an abomination or some sort of obsolete list of terms.   This is done out of Biblical illiteracy - not knowing the LAW yet accusing it of being out dated.    

Matthew 5:17 quoted Jesus as saying He DID NOT come to abolish the LAW.   He came to fulfill it.

Brain dead persons in the church fasten on justification for pet sins and suppose the LAW is of no effect, when in fact the LAW still stands.

Shall we stand before God on the final day and tell Him He made a mistake by creating a bogus LAW?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

It would be good if you read the words of my posts and refrained from calling me a liar by using lies of your own.

I never wrote or inferred in any of my posts the matters you accuse me of.    

I could write 1 + 1 = 2 and you'd find a way to twist it into a lie.  Your level of vomitus deviation is immense.  Like a sick dog spewing industrial waste, you continually inspire others to clean up after you.  Is this your purpose or are you naturally inclined to violate the 9th commandment?   

Returning to the original theme of this thread it should be noted that:

A story in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 21, 2019 chronicled Pope Francis' Christmas message stating the Church must adapt to post-Christian west.

This implies further use of western philosophy to counter encroaching secularism.   It hasn't worked in the past and it won't work in the future.  One wonders why Pope Francis, a supposedly learned man, continues to employ failed tactics.   Philosophy never proved anything except to justify the vacillating mind of those who refer to it.  It is the sinking sand Jesus spoke of which will ultimately cause the downfall of any house upon which it is built.

Reference to God's LAW is a firm foundation upon which one may build a life, a religion, and a relationship with God.   There is no other way to built a house so that it stands.

Unfortunately licentious Christians continue to deny the efficacy of the LAW, choosing instead to justify licentiousness and rampant sin in their midst.   Subsequently they incur the wrath of God upon them and their assemblies.  (1 Peter 4:17)

The standard of God's LAW is not the same thing as legalism.   Christian churches are full of legalism in one form or another, yet continue to regard Jews and Jewish LAW as an abomination or some sort of obsolete list of terms.   This is done out of Biblical illiteracy - not knowing the LAW yet accusing it of being out dated.    

Matthew 5:17 quoted Jesus as saying He DID NOT come to abolish the LAW.   He came to fulfill it.

Brain dead persons in the church fasten on justification for pet sins and suppose the LAW is of no effect, when in fact the LAW still stands.

Shall we stand before God on the final day and tell Him He made a mistake by creating a bogus LAW?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Honestly.....I don't think our conversation is connecting....

I see you talking about things that I never even said or implied.

Have a nice day!

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

2 hours ago, choir loft said:

It would be good if you read the words of my posts and refrained from calling me a liar by using lies of your own.

I never wrote or inferred in any of my posts the matters you accuse me of.    

I could write 1 + 1 = 2 and you'd find a way to twist it into a lie.  Your level of vomitus deviation is immense.  Like a sick dog spewing industrial waste, you continually inspire others to clean up after you.  Is this your purpose or are you naturally inclined to violate the 9th commandment?   

Returning to the original theme of this thread it should be noted that:

A story in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 21, 2019 chronicled Pope Francis' Christmas message stating the Church must adapt to post-Christian west.

This implies further use of western philosophy to counter encroaching secularism.   It hasn't worked in the past and it won't work in the future.  One wonders why Pope Francis, a supposedly learned man, continues to employ failed tactics.   Philosophy never proved anything except to justify the vacillating mind of those who refer to it.  It is the sinking sand Jesus spoke of which will ultimately cause the downfall of any house upon which it is built.

Reference to God's LAW is a firm foundation upon which one may build a life, a religion, and a relationship with God.   There is no other way to built a house so that it stands.

Unfortunately licentious Christians continue to deny the efficacy of the LAW, choosing instead to justify licentiousness and rampant sin in their midst.   Subsequently they incur the wrath of God upon them and their assemblies.  (1 Peter 4:17)

The standard of God's LAW is not the same thing as legalism.   Christian churches are full of legalism in one form or another, yet continue to regard Jews and Jewish LAW as an abomination or some sort of obsolete list of terms.   This is done out of Biblical illiteracy - not knowing the LAW yet accusing it of being out dated.    

Matthew 5:17 quoted Jesus as saying He DID NOT come to abolish the LAW.   He came to fulfill it.

Brain dead persons in the church fasten on justification for pet sins and suppose the LAW is of no effect, when in fact the LAW still stands.

Shall we stand before God on the final day and tell Him He made a mistake by creating a bogus LAW?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Paul said the Law was “ weak and useless”.....it had “NO POWER” to save....The Gospel is where the POWER is....that is the way to go for Salvation......

Obedience is a great thing.....it does  not save

Sin is a bad thing.....it does not send one to Hell.....UNBELIEF does .....sinning will get you chastised.

If you want to “ obey” , there is only one type of obedience that God wants......Here is how it works.....REST in Paul’s Gospel , given to him by Jesus......That Rest , knowing you don’t have to worry about Hell or keeping up a performance to “ earn” your way to Heaven, will inspire Love for God......that Love is the ENGINE that drives Obedience......it becomes Natural.....it even becomes Fun......

Get this chain of events in motion by obeying God’s Command, especially seeing as to how people love to be commanded.  “ Rest in the Gospel “—— There is your Command.It takes Faith to rest......all this other stuff that concerns you will follow naturally......that is the difference between living  under Grace, as opposed to Living under Law......live however you want......I’ve  lived both lifestyles.....Grace is better— plus!  It is Biblical.

 

[choir loft]

On 12/21/2019 at 3:17 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Paul said the Law was “ weak and useless”.....it had “NO POWER” to save....The Gospel is where the POWER is....that is the way to go for Salvation......

Obedience is a great thing.....it does  not save

Sin is a bad thing.....it does not send one to Hell.....UNBELIEF does .....sinning will get you chastised.

If you want to “ obey” , there is only one type of obedience that God wants......Here is how it works.....REST in Paul’s Gospel , given to him by Jesus......That Rest , knowing you don’t have to worry about Hell or keeping up a performance to “ earn” your way to Heaven, will inspire Love for God......that Love is the ENGINE that drives Obedience......it becomes Natural.....it even becomes Fun......

Get this chain of events in motion by obeying God’s Command, especially seeing as to how people love to be commanded.  “ Rest in the Gospel “—— There is your Command.It takes Faith to rest......all this other stuff that concerns you will follow naturally......that is the difference between living  under Grace, as opposed to Living under Law......live however you want......I’ve  lived both lifestyles.....Grace is better— plus!  It is Biblical.

 

Paul said the LAW was weak and useless?  YOU need to revisit scripture.   

In Hebrews chapter 7 verse 18 Paul said the commandment, not the LAW, was weak and useless.  The entire section, which YOU've taken out of context begins in verse 11 and goes to the end of chapter 7.  It deals with the priesthood, not the LAW.  Read it again.

Without the LAW one cannot be saved.   I said it before and I'll say it again for those who are so caught up in Protestant legalism they can't think for themselves.    

The purpose of the LAW is to convict of sin.   Once convicted the sinner is thus led BY THE LAW to repentance, also without which one cannot be saved.  God hears NO PRAYER of a sinner except the one of repentance.   Once repentance is sincerely established the sinner may be forgiven, also BY THE LAW.   Forgiveness leads to enabling by GRACE so that the saved person may live a life pleasing unto God, according to the LAW.  

Again the LAW begins the process of redemption by means of repentance.  The LAW justifies the sinner and leads to GRACE.  The gift of GRACE enables the justified sinner to live a life pleasing to God by directing him or her back to the LAW.   See the book of James - the whole thing.

Grace and LAW work together.  Neither is separate and neither operates in a vacuum - despite the vacuous doctrines of protestants who proclaim divine sanction for their licentiousness.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Where therefore is the LAW?  It stands as firmly and surely as ever it did.   It is not abolished by Christ (Matthew 5:17) or anyone else. 

What then is the LAW Christ said He came to fulfill and what portion of the LAW does Paul say is obsolete (Hebrews 8:17) ?     I've asked this over and over again, and learn some choose to deny the LAW altogether due to their ignorance of it, their hatred for Jews and Jewish LAW and their deep desire to obfuscate scripture so as to justify lawLESSness.  Why are certain individuals so eager to gut the gospel of its most basic tenant?  

Chastisement for SIN comes to those who've accepted Christ and backslid.  (1 Peter 4:17)   DEATH is the result of those who continue to turn their back on God and SIN.....death in the lake of fire.  

SIN isn't naughtiness.  It is hatred of God by people who have no desire to turn from it.  

SIN is not a "force" or some abstract idea.  It is outward certain and sincere rebellion against the Most High.   God hates it and those who practice it.    

Double minded people are unstable in all their ways (James 1:8) including their perception of sin, the LAW and God's attitude toward it.  There are certain individuals on these pages who adore sin and would strip it of its vile and disgusting definition as the Word of God describes it.

Sinners are DESTROYED, not punished in hell.  There is no hell.  There IS a certain destiny of absolute total and complete destruction - so complete that not even ashes will remain. (Revelation 20:14) 

Without the LAW one cannot know the mind of God and his or her state of sin.  

Without the LAW, destruction is an absolute certainty.  

Without the LAW one cannot appreciate GRACE or be enabled to live by it and please God.

The LAW isn't the same thing as legalism.   Those who deny the efficacy of the LAW do so with legalistic fanaticism - and risk the wrath of the Almighty in the process.   Does God sanction wickedness and sin?  He does not!  Why not?  Because the LAW says so!  At no time has the LAW been revoked or abolished.....as all sinners hope it will be.

Why so much defense of sin here?

Has satan been loosed upon Christians so as to convince them to uphold lawLESSness evil and sin?   It would seem so.

Those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.   (Romans 2:12)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited December 24, 2019 by choir loft