Church sans Tribulation (Reposted and reedited from 2013 for new viewers)

[WordSword]

9 hours ago, Alive said:

Well said---I have thought a time or two years ago, that I had some understanding of the scriptures mentioned--nowadays, that is not the case.

I have read a great many ideas over the years from extra-biblical books and the commentators as I have a great many of them in my Accordance collection.

Just as you say--there are lots of different interpretations expressed by hearts just as true as the next one who differs. The subject is beyond me because the Lord simply hasn't taught me about it as He has other things. I have been asking Him about that very thing, lately.

Time will tell.

:-)

Looks pretty much the same for me. Appreciate your input!

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Tampered With said:

As I read the Scriptures the Disciples and early Church were more anticipating Jesus Second Coming at any time than any "rapture" but then that is my interpretation.

That could very well be that the Holy Spirit had not enlightened them about the rapture yet.  When the disciples asked Jesus when will the second coming be, this, to my knowledge, had not yet been discussed, so all they knew about was His second coming.

 

I did watch the video and I agree with about 99% of what he said.  There are just a couple of minor areas that stood out to me.  One being about the falling away, where he called it a rebellion.  G646 does not use the terminology that would include the possibility of a rebellion.  The second was talking about Romans 2:14-16 where the gentiles who did not have the law, by nature do the things of the law - he stated that they were told about the law, where scripture never states that.

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

Like, I have said I am not convinced as I see too many Scriptural problems with it but at the same time I am not putting down anyone who does believe in the Rapture. People just need to not put too much into something like the Rapture so that if they see events in Scripture take place that they thought were not going to take place until after they were "Raptured" not to be too "Shaken".

Interesting how you shy away from the rapture, yet you promote a video where the speaker does agree there will be a rapture, just not a pre-tribulation rapture. 

Tell me, what do you say about 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and the usage of the word harpazo?  G726 tells us it is being snatched away or up, in the simplest of terms.

[WordSword]

I believe all who have posted replies in this thread are proper in the manner of seeking truth, and I believe (suspecting the same for most) it's through God using one another in the Body. As it's been mentioned, God gives some understanding more than others, and it's my belief He does this in accordance to how much we give ourselves to learning to love others as Christ loved, because it's always all about God's love in the believer and to others, esp. other believers!

Concerning the issue whether or not Christians will be in the tribulation, what we understand and believe concerning our thoughts on the Book of Revelation, it's mainly for the blessing of encouragement, and has no effect of one's eternal salvation. We will learn what God will be showing us independently, according to our maturity level in Christ and the Word. I believe it's mostly what we do with the Pauline Epistles, because God has used Paul the most for our spiritual growth in the Lord Jesus, through His love in us for one another.

 

 

[OneLight]

Just now, Tampered With said:

I seek Truth not an agenda! 

harpazo - 1. to seize, carry off by force 2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly 3. to snatch out or away

Not sure why you brought up an agenda, I sure never mentioned you having one, and never would claim you did.  We all should be seeking the truth, which is why we discuss, learning from each other.

Yes, that is the simplest definition for harpazo there is.   Allow me to share what I have also.

To seize upon, spoil, snatch away.  In classic grammar, the future passive harpazomai is used more often in the NT.  Literally, to seize upon with force, to rob, differing from klepto (2813), to steal secretly.  It denotes an open act of violence in contrast to cunning and secret stealing.  Though generally harpazo denotes robbery of another's property, it's not exclusively used thus, but sometimes used generally meaning to forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself. (Matthew 13:19; John 6:15; 10:12, 28, 29; Acts 23:10; Jude 1:23)  Especially used of the rapture (Acts 8:39; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4, 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 12:5); to use force against one (Matthew 11:12).

Since this is used to describe the gathering of believers to meet Jesus in the clouds, what is it that you see as not being sure of?  Is it the timing or the event?

[Alive]

10 hours ago, OneLight said:

That could very well be that the Holy Spirit had not enlightened them about the rapture yet.  When the disciples asked Jesus when will the second coming be, this, to my knowledge, had not yet been discussed, so all they knew about was His second coming.

 

I did watch the video and I agree with about 99% of what he said.  There are just a couple of minor areas that stood out to me.  One being about the falling away, where he called it a rebellion.  G646 does not use the terminology that would include the possibility of a rebellion.  The second was talking about Romans 2:14-16 where the gentiles who did not have the law, by nature do the things of the law - he stated that they were told about the law, where scripture never states that.

Paul sure did teach the churches back then about the so called rapture..."the dead in Christ shall rise first and we that remain..."

The scriptural record of those times didn't mention when in relationship to Daniel.

It became an issue many centuries later as has been mentioned. Whether it was by the Holy Spirit or not is up in the air.

The whole thing could just be another distraction and means for factions.

Just sayin'.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Alive

[wingnut-]

9 hours ago, Tampered With said:

I guess if you pinned me down I would have to pick post-Tribulation but then does that really qualify as a rapture or just Jesus' Second coming? 

 

I see it the same way, He gathers us as He is coming.  It's not exactly post-trib, maybe an hour or so before, from there it depends on how long it takes Him to deal with the wicked.  From what can be gleaned in the OT from the prophets, it doesn't appear to me it will take very much time, so I see most of the wrath being poured out rather quickly.

God bless

[wingnut-]

14 hours ago, Alive said:

I am sorry that we are not communicating, wing.

 

We're all good brother, no worries.

 

14 hours ago, Alive said:

Does John contradict Paul?

 

No.

 

14 hours ago, Alive said:

With these things in view--I have tried to understand some of your positions.

 

For the sake of clarity, let me say it like this.  Not everyone who is a teacher was chosen to be a teacher by God.  Being a teacher does not make one qualified to teach every known subject under the sun.  Whether someone is or is not a teacher because God wants them to be one is not something anyone else can possibly determine.

 

God bless

[Alive]

Yup--if pinned down--I agree. It seems to me that what Paul described happens when the Lord returns to set up His 1000 year reign.

I am not convinced that the great tribulation will be global, either. I believe there is room for seeing it local to Israel and the surrounding area.

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

We're all good brother, no worries.

 

 

No.

 

 

For the sake of clarity, let me say it like this.  Not everyone who is a teacher was chosen to be a teacher by God.  Being a teacher does not make one qualified to teach every known subject under the sun.  Whether someone is or is not a teacher because God wants them to be one is not something anyone else can possibly determine.

 

God bless

Praise the Lord--no worries.

I would say, however, that the saints in a local expression of the body of Christ do recognize an anointing. The Spirit within hears the Spirit and there is a sense of harmony. I have described this as being much like tuning a guitar. When one string is brought to the same note as another, there is a very pleasant identifiable 'likeness'.

The Spirit bears witness to the Spirit that it is of God. Senses exercised. This takes time, but is a very real thing.

This is not limited to teaching or prophecy, but any one might speak in a gathering and it be the Lord energizing that 'word'.

When two or more are gathered.....He promised--no He emphatically declared that He is there. The question becomes; do we believe what we believe?