Why 2 OR THREE Witnesses?

[ReneeIW]

59 minutes ago, lftc said:

I could take the common approach and post opposing verses. However, I find that when it becomes a debate of posting countering verses, the clear indication is that understanding has ceased

I wasn’t posting verses in an attempt to debate. I was just trying to express my feelings by using Scripture.

Christ came to fulfill the promises in the OT. It doesn’t mean the OT doesn’t have value, but it does mean now that we have Christ and a New Covenant and a new way of doing things, we probably shouldn’t be longing for the OT days when things were done differently.

It reminds me of the people in the NT that asked Christ why the disciples were not fasting. The disciples had Christ among them, why would they fast? 

We have  a new way of doing things. Why go back to the OT and wish for the old way? But again, I might be misunderstanding your point.

I’m sure some wish an “eye for an eye” was still the best way at righting wrongs. Is there value in that teaching?  

I’m sorry I participated in this thread and maybe took you off topic. I found it interesting, but then I struggled to see what you wanted us to learn from it. That’s my problem, not yours.?

[JustPassingThru]

On 10/23/2019 at 4:59 AM, lftc said:

I was trying to keep this topic focused on understanding why God said the things he said in the Deut 19 passage quoted in the OP.

I'm not trying to hijack your thread, ...but to answer you question, God knew that thousands of years later, an "experiment" where His born again children, suffering under religious persecution, would leave their homeland and build a nation, ...the United States of America, on the very same moral and ethical principles that He had given to His chosen people, the Hebrew race, the children of Abraham, the descendants of Seth, ...through Moses.

This Nation has helped His chosen people, now living in their land, promised to them by God, for 71 years, the Nation of Israel, ...sending military aid to certain and inevitable defeat by their enemies in the 1973 war, ...and today, in these final moments of this world as we know it, the present U.S. Administration is Israel's strongest supporter and ally, ...even though His Word tells us one day soon, even this "experiment,"  ...in less than 250 years, will prove the "depravity of man" and will turn against His chosen people.

Please folks, I wrote this to lftc and him alone, please DO NOT hijack his thread with any political criticism or remarks on/about what I have written to him, ...respect his wish and stay on the OP topic, ...if you have any remarks about what I have written, ...start your own threads!

Lord bless bro   

[lftc]

1 hour ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom @lftc

I might be repeating what someone else has already said, if so forgive me. 

I believe the term "two or three.." was the ancient Hebrew way of saying "two or more.."

Obviously two was acceptable but the provision is there to allow more to come forward as a testimony rather than turn them away saying "we have two already, be gone!"

Love & Shalom 

Shalom to you, @Tzephanyahu

Your oberservation is interesting.  Do you have a reference that indicates that it is "two or more"?

That would make the situation even more revealing of the LORD's perspective on the requirements for conviction. 

Posting the Deut passage again for easy reference:

Deut 19
15“A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established. 16If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, 17then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. 18The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, 19then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil^c from your midst. 20And the rest shall hear and fear, and shall never again commit any such evil among you. 21Your eye shall not pity. It shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

It is a significant issue to involve more witnesses as v18 requires investigation of each. And each found false gets punishment commensurate to the alleged crime.

I think this topic leads, in part, to a perspective you have posted about in the past.

[lftc]

1 hour ago, ReneeIW said:

I wasn’t posting verses in an attempt to debate. I was just trying to express my feelings by using Scripture.

Christ came to fulfill the promises in the OT. It doesn’t mean the OT doesn’t have value, but it does mean now that we have Christ and a New Covenant and a new way of doing things, we probably shouldn’t be longing for the OT days when things were done differently.

It reminds me of the people in the NT that asked Christ why the disciples were not fasting. The disciples had Christ among them, why would they fast? 

We have  a new way of doing things. Why go back to the OT and wish for the old way? But again, I might be misunderstanding your point.

I’m sure some wish an “eye for an eye” was still the best way at righting wrongs. Is there value in that teaching?  

I’m sorry I participated in this thread and maybe took you off topic. I found it interesting, but then I struggled to see what you wanted us to learn from it. That’s my problem, not yours.?

Thank you for the gracious reply, ReneeIW.

I understand your perpective, that the New Testament changed everything from the Old Testament.  I already stated my view, so I won't restate it here.

I am sure that we each would prefer to build a custom system of law that only punished other people's crimes.  I am not saying that against you, as I would prefer that too.  When I look around the world, I see pieces of law of the various authorities that I like and others that I do not.  People around the world are actively seeking to change their governments,  one hopes they use some higher standard to evualate the basis for such change.  I am not the higher standard, just dust in wind thinking about it as I blow into eternity.

I greatly appreciate your patience as we discussed this.  And I hope your path continues to lead you into the Love and Mercy that led you to have such a deep and true love for the New Testament.

[Tzephanyahu]

1 hour ago, lftc said:

Your oberservation is interesting.  Do you have a reference that indicates that it is "two or more"?

Unfortunately not. This is something I picked up during my travels through Messianic training and Jewish resources.  See how it fits for you though as you read. To me, it makes a lot of sense though. 

Other phrases or style of speech in the Scriptures, like this one, have been lost through the ages. For example when we read someone calling a name twice i.e. "Abraham, Abraham!" it's actually intended to only be read once. With the lack of capital letters and punctuation, the only way a word could be emphasised as a shout was with repetition. This is lost on the English readers who think a name is simply being repeated. 

2 hours ago, lftc said:

It is a significant issue to involve more witnesses as v18 requires investigation of each. And each found false gets punishment commensurate to the alleged crime

True. Consider the mitzvot (commandments) surrounding a town that is rumoured to be harbouring idolatry. A thorough investigation was to be carried out of the place. So beyond a handful of witnesses, you could have potentially investigated dozens upon dozens of witnesses. 

It's very interesting that Yahweh handed this authority to men/sanhedrin. Rather than giving the verdict and decree by lot, the crimes were handed over to mere men to adjudicate/resolve. Surely great lessons can be learned from this. 

A Jewish interpretation of Deuteronomy 29:29 is that Yahweh adjudicates the matters that no one sees but those incidents we CAN see He expects us to resolve.  What an incredible honour, for the Creator of the universe to hand over such matters to mere men.  And aren't we to judge angels in the next life? Being a child of Yahweh is a tremendous gift, honour and responsibility - more than any of us realise right now!

Love & Shalom 

[lftc]

The observation I was planning to share only makes sense if one can see the impact of the commandments on society under Mosaic Law.  And it depends on acceptance of the principle that God still intends people to ponder the Torah.

It appears that interest in this topic is minimal.

Be blessed.

[Tzephanyahu]

8 minutes ago, lftc said:

And it depends on acceptance of the principle that God still intends people to ponder the Torah.

Heresy! Get out! How dare you even suggest such a thing! All we need to consider these days are the letters of Paul!