Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Dan. 9:27 shows us an event that divides the week into two halves. I Agree. I disagree with the way some translations translate Midst of, as opposed to for half of the week. Been over this before with you, and the way I read it is confirmed by Jesus who puts the Abomination at the beginning of the week in the Olivet discourse.

 This is backed up by five mentions of the last half of the week given in days, in months and in times - all in three chapters: midpoint chapters. Have you ever read Isaiah? What chapters speak of Jesus' first advent? They are throughout the book. 

When is the fleeing in the Olivet discourse? Right when the abomination happens which is at the beginning of the week. Which Puts Rev. 12:6 right at the beginning of the week. You obviously cannot see it.

rubbish. Your parenthesis on rev. 12:1-5 rips this out of revelation and places them at the first advent. So you are doing exactly what I am doing. 

That is just chance. any 1260 day period has a beginning and an end. You were shown the end of these 1260 day periods. For example the two witnesses begin their ministry when? and they end their ministry when? I believe they end their ministry at the sixth trumpet. Why because they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit at the fifth trumpet. But of course you do not see this beast as diverse from the beast of rev. 13. Because you can't make it fit into your theory.  

No, Your logic is full of Holes. I Am limiting my responses to you because I do not want to embarrass you. There are plenty of theories out there that place the GT in the first half of the week, do an image search and you will find some of revelation timelines. But I do not usually invoke the fallacy ad Populum when I debate. This is not a popularity study here, and because many people believe one way does not mean it is true. 

Sorry, I gave up the first time, and did not do my best. Let me do better. Yes, any 1260 days period has a beginning and an end. I agree so far. Do you remember what Jesus Christ, the head of the church, said to me about this? Let me quote:

"Every time I mentioned and event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the midpoint of the week."

So what can we learn from this?

First, there are verses using the 3.5 year period of time. we already know: there are two with this time in days, two with this time in months, and one given in times or years.

Second, we can learn that each of these mentions of the 3.5 year period of time is for an event that begins at the midpoint and goes to the end of the week. That means the 42 months of trampling BEGINS in 11:2 and continues on to the end of the week. 

That means the 1260 days of testifying begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

That means the 1260 days of fleeing begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week. 

That means the 42 months of authority begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week. 

All this means that you disagree with Jesus and with John. 

Where do the two witnesses begin? Since you have no chronology, it is useless to tell.  What I can tell is the week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week. This shows John DOEs have chronology. The week starts in chapter 8 and ends in chapter 16. The midpoint is in chapter 11. 

Summary:  You said, "You were shown the end of these 1260 day periods."   Jesus told me each mention of the 3.5 years was the START. Sorry, but I am going to go with what Jesus said.

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, I gave up the first time, and did not do my best. Let me do better. Yes, any 1260 days period has a beginning and an end. I agree so far. Do you remember what Jesus Christ, the head of the church, said to me about this? Let me quote:

"Every time I mentioned and event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the midpoint of the week."

So what can we learn from this?

First, there are verses using the 3.5 year period of time. we already know: there are two with this time in days, two with this time in months, and one given in times or years.

Second, we can learn that each of these mentions of the 3.5 year period of time is for an event that begins at the midpoint and goes to the end of the week. That means the 42 months of trampling BEGINS in 11:2 and continues on to the end of the week. 

That means the 1260 days of testifying begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

That means the 1260 days of fleeing begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week. 

That means the 42 months of authority begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week. 

All this means that you disagree with Jesus and with John. 

Where do the two witnesses begin? Since you have no chronology, it is useless to tell.  What I can tell is the week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week. This shows John DOEs have chronology. The week starts in chapter 8 and ends in chapter 16. The midpoint is in chapter 11. 

I Already showed you my proof for when the two witnesses begin and end their ministry, it is the first half of the week. The Proof is that the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit kills them which happens at the fifth trumpet, when the bottomless pit is unlocked. That is why John squarely placed the two witnesses in the sixth trumpet. Your right, all the 1260's mark the midpoint of the final week, but I think you misheard or misapplied what was shown you, because they all take place in the first half of the week.

This again is confirmed by Jesus in the Olivet discourse. He clearly places the abomination FIRST , and the result of this is the Fleeing of the People of Judah to the Wilderness (rev. 12:6). If You could just consider this for a moment without bias you will quickly see all of the scriptures line up this way, including Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess. 2, Matthew 24, and even other prophecies in the Old testament.

Right now, you have to make the claim that the covenant with many is done in secret and no one knows about it until the abomination is committed. This is you adding to scripture what is not there, your own innuendo and understanding. Remember this is a covenant with many. Many people will know when this comes, not a secret peace treaty. Find me one verse to prove this? But I can give you a dozen to prove my Point. They are known as Labor pangs in scripture and there are a bunch of verses about this. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

I Already showed you my proof for when the two witnesses begin and end their ministry, it is the first half of the week. The Proof is that the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit kills them which happens at the fifth trumpet, when the bottomless pit is unlocked. That is why John squarely placed the two witnesses in the sixth trumpet. Your right, all the 1260's mark the midpoint of the final week, but I think you misheard or misapplied what was shown you, because they all take place in the first half of the week.

This again is confirmed by Jesus in the Olivet discourse. He clearly places the abomination FIRST , and the result of this is the Fleeing of the People of Judah to the Wilderness (rev. 12:6). If You could just consider this for a moment without bias you will quickly see all of the scriptures line up this way, including Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess. 2, Matthew 24, and even other prophecies in the Old testament.

Right now, you have to make the claim that the covenant with many is done in secret and no one knows about it until the abomination is committed. This is you adding to scripture what is not there, your own innuendo and understanding. Remember this is a covenant with many. Many people will know when this comes, not a secret peace treaty. Find me one verse to prove this? But I can give you a dozen to prove my Point. They are known as Labor pangs in scripture and there are a bunch of verses about this. 

Did you ever stop to think that the leader of those locust beasties that sting like scorpions  - that come out of the bottomless pit at the 5th trumpet does not go back into the pit after their time of stinging is over? Who knows what happens to the locusts, or their leader? What we do know is TIME PASSES from the 5th trumpet judgment to the 7th, as the firsts half of the week winds down and ends with the 7th trumpet. Does the leader go back into the pit, then come out again later? What we do know is that he kills the two witnesses just before the end of the week. NOT AT THE 5TH TRUMPET! In the 5th trumpet he is the leader of the horde of locusts.  It seems you ignore it.  The 5th trumpet is about stinging locusts, not the killing of the two prophets. Indeed, at the time of the 5th trumpet THEY ARE STILL IN HEAVEN! You really should pay attention to the TIMING!

Anyway, after this, I think we will very little to say:  "Your right, all the 1260's mark the midpoint of the final week, but I think you misheard or misapplied what was shown you, because they all take place in the first half of the week."

Compare with what Jesus said:  ""Every time I mentioned and event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time..."

So let's examine this: HOW could this be misapplied? He said from the midpoint to the end of the week.  The truth here is this: your proof is not real proof at all. It is only proof in your own mind. I am going to stick with what Jesus said.  Good luck with your theories. They will be proven wrong.  

I have said I only suspect the covenant is confirmed in secret.  John does not tell us.  It is just the fact that Jesus skips over it, and John does not mention it.  Can you find it mentioned in Revelation? I never have. For something as important as the start of the week, one would think it would be somewhere in Revelation. Then another point:  Paul tells us the man of sin is not revealed until he enters the temple. Now stop and think: if someone confirms a covenant WITH ISRAEL involved and it is known the world around, at least some will SUSPECT it is the man of sin. However,perhaps no one would really know for sure until he enters the temple. 

One thing is certain: we don't see these scriptures the same way.

I skipped over this before, thinking it a waste of time, but you did mention it: the two witnesses BEGIN their testimony in 11:3 when John first mentions them. The TIME? It will be 3.5 days before the midpoint of the week. They testify for 1260 days, which takes them to 3.5 days before the END of the week. That is when they are killed: 3.5 days before the end of the week. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by iamlamad

[dhchristian]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Right now, you have to make the claim that the covenant with many is done in secret and no one knows about it until the abomination is committed. This is you adding to scripture what is not there, your own innuendo and understanding. Remember this is a covenant with many. Many people will know when this comes, not a secret peace treaty. Find me one verse to prove this? But I can give you a dozen to prove my Point. They are known as Labor pangs in scripture and there are a bunch of verses about this. 

Did you ever stop to think that the leader of those locust beasties that sting like scorpions  - that come out of the bottomless pit at the 5th trumpet does not go back into the pit after their time of stinging is over? Who knows what happens to the locusts, or their leader? What we do know is TIME PASSES from the 5th trumpet judgment to the 7th, as the firsts half of the week winds down and ends with the 7th trumpet. Does the leader go back into the pit, then come out again later? What we do know is that he kills the two witnesses just before the end of the week. NOT AT THE 5TH TRUMPET! In the 5th trumpet he is the leader of the horde of locusts.  It seems you ignore it.  The 5th trumpet is about stinging locusts, not the killing of the two prophets. Indeed, at the time of the 5th trumpet THEY ARE STILL IN HEAVEN! You really should pay attention to the TIMING!

More deflection and innuendo from you. My Point is that no one is coming out of the bottomless pit until the door is unlocked in Rev. 9:1-2. and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit;

No one coming out of the bottomless pit is going to want to go back in there, as if it were some nest for them to return to. Again more deflection on your part. You do not want to accept it, but this alone should get you to question your theory. 

This again, is a very weak rebuttal on your part, where you have to add to scripture what is not there. This Opening of the bottomless pit fits perfectly into my framework.

Remember also, the seventh trumpet does not sound until after the two witnesses are resurrected (John's chronology). Well if the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, then.... Your theory has a HUGE logical hole in it. My Framework has no issue with this, and there is no need to add a parenthesis here.

Seems to me like sometimes you are hearing from God, but other times you are just hearing from your imagination. I Do not think you have learned to discern between the two. One day you will figure this out. 

As I said to RM, thank you for the inspiration and confidence to go out and write a book about this. Which is what my next plan is to do. A forum such as this is not the place to explain this in short posts, as all of this is merely touching the surface of this framework. 

God Bless. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Already showed you my proof for when the two witnesses begin and end their ministry, it is the first half of the week. The Proof is that the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit kills them which happens at the fifth trumpet, when the bottomless pit is unlocked.

This theory is, of course, not provable by ANY scripture ANYWHERE. Yes, of course the Destroyer comes out of the bottomless pit at the 5th trumpet, but he has another mission then: to lead the hoard of stinging locusts.  No one should assume by this passage that he kills the two witnesses at the same time. We call that jumping to a conclusion - and in this case a very wrong conclusion. Notice that John does not tell us he returns back to the pit after the 5 months.

The truth is, the two witnesses will not  have arrived on earth yet to start their ministry. They don't arrive until after the 6th trumpet judgment is finished. To be more exact, the two witnesses suddenly show up (arrive) from heaven just 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.

So, as usual, you are pushing a theory, assuming it is truth, and wondering why it is not believed. I am back to the banker that teaches the tellers all about the REAL US currency. They can spot a counterfeit instantly. You see, when one really understands John's true chronology, counterfeit theories show up immediately.

[dhchristian]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This theory is, of course, not provable by ANY scripture ANYWHERE. Yes, of course the Destroyer comes out of the bottomless pit at the 5th trumpet, but he has another mission then: to lead the hoard of stinging locusts.  No one should assume by this passage that he kills the two witnesses at the same time. We call that jumping to a conclusion - and in this case a very wrong conclusion. Notice that John does not tell us he returns back to the pit after the 5 months.

The truth is, the two witnesses will not  have arrived on earth yet to start their ministry. They don't arrive until after the 6th trumpet judgment is finished. To be more exact, the two witnesses suddenly show up (arrive) from heaven just 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.

So, as usual, you are pushing a theory, assuming it is truth, and wondering why it is not believed. I am back to the banker that teaches the tellers all about the REAL US currency. They can spot a counterfeit instantly. You see, when one really understands John's true chronology, counterfeit theories show up immediately.

Did You just miss this HUGE Fallacy In Your theory....

Remember also, the seventh trumpet does not sound until after the two witnesses are resurrected (John's chronology). Well if the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, then.... Your theory has a HUGE logical hole in it. My Framework has no issue with this, and there is no need to add a parenthesis here.

I Honestly do not know why you cannot see this. YOU say the 7th trumpet is the mid point. JOHN in his chronology has the two witnesses being killed before the seventh trumpet. SIMPLE logic tells us that the two witnesses are killed and resurrected BEFORE the seventh Trumpet, MEANING their 1260 day ministry is in the first half of the week ASSUMING YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET BEING THE MIDPOINT OF THE FINAL WEEK. Otherwise you have to rearrange revelation, something which you yourself have said Is Wrong.

It is time to admit your obvious error that any intelligent person can clearly see in your theory. 

[dhchristian]

The emperor's clothes have just been revealed to him as being invisible! 

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Did You just miss this HUGE Fallacy In Your theory....

Remember also, the seventh trumpet does not sound until after the two witnesses are resurrected (John's chronology). Well if the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, then.... Your theory has a HUGE logical hole in it. My Framework has no issue with this, and there is no need to add a parenthesis here.

I Honestly do not know why you cannot see this. YOU say the 7th trumpet is the mid point. JOHN in his chronology has the two witnesses being killed before the seventh trumpet. SIMPLE logic tells us that the two witnesses are killed and resurrected BEFORE the seventh Trumpet, MEANING their 1260 day ministry is in the first half of the week ASSUMING YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET BEING THE MIDPOINT OF THE FINAL WEEK. Otherwise you have to rearrange revelation, something which you yourself have said Is Wrong.

It is time to admit your obvious error that any intelligent person can clearly see in your theory. 

Now you see why John had to write those verses as a parenthesis. It is NOT an "obvious error." I honestly do not know why you cannot see this! It is a very simple concept: John is introduced to the two witnesses at the very moment they show up. There arrival is IN John's chronology.  But in the vision, God chose to take John down a SIDE JOURNEY through the last half of the week, showing more information about them, using a parenthesis.  John (and the Holy Spirit) does exactly the same thing with the two Beasts in chapter 13. They are introduced, but then the vision takes John on a side journey down the last half of the week (at least part way down) to show what they do later in the week.

In other words, I did not make up this parenthesis: it is there for anyone to see. 

There are other ways to look at this: some say they show up and begin their testimony at the START of the week (which for me would be at the 7th seal / first trumpet) and testify for their 1260 days, so no parenthesis was used by John.  You have chosen this way. In fact, MANY think this is truth.  Then, another way is to just ignore any kind of chronology and move things around to fit some theory.  I don't think either of these is the Author's intent. 

 

[Sister]

Hi iamlamad

Something to consider....

 

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No one should assume by this passage that he kills the two witnesses at the same time.

There are only 3 woes.  Three of the worst horrible last plagues.  One angel for each woe.  So three of the last angels. These woes are not hurting the earth, but men now.  After this there are no more woes and no more plagues.  It's finished.

 Revelation 8:13   And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

The locusts like spirits is the FIRST WOE - which is the 5th angel with the trumpet.  That woe lasts 5 months.

Revelation 9:11   And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 9:12   One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

What comes next after the 5th angel with the trumpet? ....

the 6th angel with the trumpet of course!

Now the SECOND WOE is finished after the two witnesses are killed (Rev 11:14).

So the second woe MUST BE during the days the 6th angel with the trumpet- the next angel. This plague is that great war with man against man, kingdom against kingdom.

 

 Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

The third woe is the war against the Lamb.  It will not end good for them.  This is the last woe.  The worst.  No more woes after this.  It is done.

 

This should also prove that the trumpets and vials are the same angels, and same plagues happening at the same time because those woes are a big clue that it's not another 7 angels coming on to the scene, but the same ones only with more detail given.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, the two witnesses will not  have arrived on earth yet to start their ministry. They don't arrive until after the 6th trumpet judgment is finished. To be more exact, the two witnesses suddenly show up (arrive) from heaven just 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.

The two witness "die" during the days of the 6th angel, not come on to the scene.  Their testimony is finished.  They are here during the days of the FP - 3 1/2 years.... with just one month short.  They will be like a Moses and Aaron who sent the plagues onto Egypt.

 

 

 

 

[dhchristian]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Now you see why John had to write those verses as a parenthesis. It is NOT an "obvious error." I honestly do not know why you cannot see this! It is a very simple concept: John is introduced to the two witnesses at the very moment they show up. There arrival is IN John's chronology.  But in the vision, God chose to take John down a SIDE JOURNEY through the last half of the week, showing more information about them, using a parenthesis.  John (and the Holy Spirit) does exactly the same thing with the two Beasts in chapter 13. They are introduced, but then the vision takes John on a side journey down the last half of the week (at least part way down) to show what they do later in the week.

In other words, I did not make up this parenthesis: it is there for anyone to see. 

There are other ways to look at this: some say they show up and begin their testimony at the START of the week (which for me would be at the 7th seal / first trumpet) and testify for their 1260 days, so no parenthesis was used by John.  You have chosen this way. In fact, MANY think this is truth.  Then, another way is to just ignore any kind of chronology and move things around to fit some theory.  I don't think either of these is the Author's intent. 

Read Sister's comment above. I Am deferring.