Should Christians Obey Torah?

[BibleGuy]

On 11/9/2019 at 4:25 PM, johnthebaptist said:

Whether we should or not, most of us don't. I would use the argument that the Lord was talking to the Jews, not Christians. Still, facts are facts, and if the Lord told the Jews that something was an abomination, then it's an abomination no matter what the audience. And of course there is a wealth of wisdom given to us in the Torah.

" I would use the argument that the Lord was talking to the Jews, not Christians. "

Right....I hear that a lot....

But Mt. 28:19-20 applies ALL of Jesus' teachings to ALL disciples of ALL nations....

Thus, Mt. 5:19, for example, applies to you.

"And of course there is a wealth of wisdom given to us in the Torah."

True....and that very Torah passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33) inaugurated in Jesus' blood (Lk.22:20) for you.

So that's why we Christians should obey the Torah (Heb.8:10) of the New Covenant (Heb.8:8) in which we partake, by faith.

blessings....

 

[johnthebaptist]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

" I would use the argument that the Lord was talking to the Jews, not Christians. "

Right....I hear that a lot....

But Mt. 28:19-20 applies ALL of Jesus' teachings to ALL disciples of ALL nations....

Thus, Mt. 5:19, for example, applies to you.

"And of course there is a wealth of wisdom given to us in the Torah."

True....and that very Torah passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33) inaugurated in Jesus' blood (Lk.22:20) for you.

So that's why we Christians should obey the Torah (Heb.8:10) of the New Covenant (Heb.8:8) in which we partake, by faith.

blessings....

 

You do all the Torah requires of you? Do you recognize all the burnt and other offerings (birds, turtledoves, pigeons, cereal, peace, etc., the priest burning the memorial portion of the cereal offering on the altar), observe the jubilees, leave the corners of your fields unharvested, refrain from mixed-fabric clothing and eating seafood? Do you conduct you offerings appropriately? Example: [14] Then he shall offer from it, as his offering for an offering by fire to the LORD, the fat covering the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails, [15] and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys. Lev 3:14-15 RSV

[Tzephanyahu]

7 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

You do all the Torah requires of you? Do you recognize all the burnt and other offerings (birds, turtledoves, pigeons, cereal, peace, etc., the priest burning the memorial portion of the cereal offering on the altar), observe the jubilees, leave the corners of your fields unharvested, refrain from mixed-fabric clothing and eating seafood? Do you conduct you offerings appropriately? Example: [14] Then he shall offer from it, as his offering for an offering by fire to the LORD, the fat covering the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails, [15] and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys. Lev 3:14-15 RSV

I don't. But I don't follow Torah to be saved or justified, so that doesn't matter. 

But I do follow Torah for training in righteousness. 

If what pleases the Father and what He deems as holy, clean and righetous living was detailed in a book, why wouldn't I read it and follow it the best I can? Or what decent excuse could I have for not doing so? "Because I thought Paul meant..." or "because pastor so-and-so says..." 

Sadly, anyone who chooses to be "above" Torah has also surely lost the relevance of the majority of the psalms for themselves. Including the wonderful psalm 119.

[johnthebaptist]

6 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

I don't. But I don't follow Torah to be saved or justified, so that doesn't matter. 

But I do follow Torah for training in righteousness. 

If what pleases the Father and what He deems as holy, clean and righetous living was detailed in a book, why wouldn't I read it and follow it the best I can? Or what decent excuse could I have for not doing so? "Because I thought Paul meant..." or "because pastor so-and-so says..." 

Sadly, anyone who chooses to be "above" Torah has also surely lost the relevance of the majority of the psalms for themselves. Including the wonderful psalm 119.

I hear people say the Torah isn't properly translated, thus releasing us from the obligation to obey the Lord's commandments, but the Lord certainly had the desire and ability to see to it his words were properly translated.

And I hear people say that the Lord was speaking to the Jews in the Old Testament, and therefore we aren't bound to it.  I would agree that the Lord was talking to the Jews, but if he says something, such as homosexuality, is an abomination, then it's an abomination. That is true for all of us, not just Jews.

[Tzephanyahu]

1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said:

I hear people say the Torah isn't properly translated, thus releasing us from the obligation to obey the Lord's commandments, but the Lord certainly had the desire and ability to see to it his words were properly translated.

Amen.  As for those who say such things, they neither realise the power of Yahweh or motives of their own heart. 

I think it would be a poor excuse to use in front of the Lord.  Besides, where do you draw the line?  Then they could start saying "Well, salvation isn't really from Messiah, it hasn't been properly translated". :S

1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said:

And I hear people say that the Lord was speaking to the Jews in the Old Testament, and therefore we aren't bound to it.  I would agree that the Lord was talking to the Jews, but if he says something, such as homosexuality, is an abomination, then it's an abomination. That is true for all of us, not just Jews.

The Jews, as a named group, didn't exist at the time the Torah was given.  I think the title "Jew" doesn't appear in Scripture until as late as 2 Kings.  No, the Torah was given to all of Israel. 

But as for those you have mentioned, who have used the incorrect term Jews (which is common mistake tbh), they are not considering how we have been grafted INTO Israel.  And if Yahweh didn't spare the natural branches of Israel who disobeyed, how much less those grafted in that do not stay abiding in Him, and therefore the roots.  I'm not questioning salvation - but there is coming a day in which we all have to give account for our work in the Body and every idle word will be addressed...  How can people expect to be rewarded for speaking negatively against His guiding Torah?  Aren't we told they we be called "least in the Kingdom of God".  So, they will be within His Kingdom (by His Grace), but as the least.   Better to not speak about Torah at all than to speak against it.

But what a privilege it is to be grafted into Israel and partake of her promises though!  I think it's an incredible blessing.  I'm sure many would agree - if it wasn't for their phobia of Torah, which I believe is based upon unfamiliarity and fear of being "under" it.

Anyway, thank you for your comments John.  May Yahweh bless you richly today.

Love & Shalom

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

You do all the Torah requires of you? Do you recognize all the burnt and other offerings (birds, turtledoves, pigeons, cereal, peace, etc., the priest burning the memorial portion of the cereal offering on the altar), observe the jubilees, leave the corners of your fields unharvested, refrain from mixed-fabric clothing and eating seafood? Do you conduct you offerings appropriately? Example: [14] Then he shall offer from it, as his offering for an offering by fire to the LORD, the fat covering the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails, [15] and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys. Lev 3:14-15 RSV

"You do all the Torah requires of you?"

I think I'm pretty much on the mark....but always seeking to learn and grow in ever-increasing faithful obedience, as we should....

"Do you recognize all the burnt and other offerings"

I'm sure you know that we (in diaspora) are incapable of observing such Torah portions....

After all, Moses said we won't again obey 100% of all Torah until AFTER we return from diaspora (Dt. 30:1-8).

"observe the jubilees"

That's for those IN the land, right?

"leave the corners of your fields unharvested"

I'm not a farmer...

"refrain from mixed-fabric clothing"

Not all mixed fabrics are prohibited....only the mixing of צֶמֶר and פֵּשֶׁת (Dt.22:11)

So, I'm trying to learn the precise meanings of these terms to make sure I'm in compliance....

"eating seafood?"

Not all seafood is prohibited!  And Peter applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly (1Pe.1:16)...so it's easy to observe Lev. 11 while in diaspora.

"Do you conduct you offerings appropriately? "

I'm not a functioning Levitical priest (Lev. 3:16)....

And Jesus has not yet restored that covenant with Levi (Mal.3:4)....but He will!

CONCLUSION: GROW in faithful obedience to presently observable Torah portions...

After all, Torah is required by Jesus (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

by Paul (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19)

by John (1Jn.2:3;5:3)

by Stephen (Ac.6:10-15)

by the Apostles (Mt.23:34)

by the Father (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)

and the Spirit agrees (Heb.10:15-16;Rom.8:7,13;Is.59:20-21;Eze.36:27).

Besides, why would you disobey the very Torah of the New Covenant in which you partake? (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16)....

That makes NO sense.....

blessings....

 

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:53 PM, Wayne222 said:

Jesus fulfill the law. We are justified by his blood. You guys want to put a yoke on the neck of the believers.  Your taking out of context those  verses. Before the cross you had to follow torah. After the cross we live by the spirit.

Hi there!  I can't remember if I answered this post.....

Anyway, I'll just say a few things here (hopefully I'm not repeating myself!)

Yes, Jesus fulfilled the law...but FULFILLED is not ABOLISHED....so it's still in force.

We are justified by his blood, AND Torah (Rom.2:13) AND faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.....

JESUS puts a yoke on us (Mt.11:30)...and it's the EASY yoke of obeying Torah (Mt.5:19) with perfection (Mt.5:48)...it's NOT too difficult! (Dt.30:11)...Moses was not lying.

"Your taking out of context those  verses."

I think Mt. 5:19 is pretty clear....don't you?

"Before the cross you had to follow torah. After the cross we live by the spirit."

Actually, the PRE-CROSS teachings apply to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

The SPIRIT testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21).

The Spirit is OPPOSED to Torah-disobedience (Rom.8:7,13).

Thus, the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah.

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:57 PM, Wayne222 said:

If we are justified we will enter the new earth and new heaven. You are mixing law and grace. Then if we have to follow the law to be justified why did christ die. By no works of the law can anyone be justified. 

Hi there!  Again, can't remember if I answered you or not...(I've been away for awhile)....

So, I'll mention a few things again here....

Yes, I mix law and grace...because Paul does too!

We are justified by TORAH (Rom.2:13)...and by grace (Rom.3:24).

Same thing with Moses...Moses receives grace (Ex.33:13), and then Moses also OBEYS God's ways (Ex.33:13) which, of course, are found in TORAH (1Ki.2:3).

"if we have to follow the law to be justified why did christ die."

Christ paid the price for us....we could never pay that price for ourselves.....

Shall we now go and sin?  Of course not!  So STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

"By no works of the law can anyone be justified. "

Of COURSE we are not justified by works without faith....

That's why Paul says we are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But TOGETHER.

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 11:04 PM, missmuffet said:

The Torah is considered the inspired Word of God by both Jews and Christians alike. Christians, however, see Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies and believe the Law was fulfilled in Christ.

Hi there!  Can't remember if I answered this....so I'll just post (again?) that FULFILLED does not mean ABOLISHED.

So, that's why Mt. 5:19 STILL APPLIES to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

blessings..

[BibleGuy]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:17 AM, Jayne said:

Alright,  would someone who believes that Christians are bound to the law and the law is to be obeyed today BY Christians please explain how you determine which ones are applicable to your life and MUST be obeyed to live as a Christian.

I'm not talking about the moral ones that were in existence BEFORE the law - like murder, rape, stealing, lying, and adultery.  Those were sins from the beginning and will always be.  I'm talking about those confined within the law and not practiced in the New Testament.

Like not combining fabrics and only having one crop in a field. [Boy would my grandparents have bombed out there.]

Or killing sons and daughters when promiscuous or rebellious.  Or stoning a rapist or adulterer.  When's the last time the church practiced that?

Or wearing sideburns.  Or wearing tassels on your hats and bottom of your robes.  Or all of those Feast Days?

Which laws are in concrete and stone for the Christians and which ones are not?  And why?

I'm not getting explicitly understanding of what you guys mean when you say Christians should obey the law.  

Which ones and why?

 

"please explain how you determine which ones are applicable to your life and MUST be obeyed to live as a Christian."

Hi there!  We grow in faithful obedience to all PRESENTLY OBSERVABLE Torah portions...knowing that we will again obey 100% of all Torah only AFTER our diaspora ends (Dt.30:1-8).

"I'm talking about those confined within the law and not practiced in the New Testament."

ALL Torah of Moses passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33)....there is no distinction.

"Like not combining fabrics"

There is no law forbidding ALL fabric combinations....merely the restriction against combining צֶמֶר and פֵּשֶׁת

"and only having one crop in a field."

Is that too tough to obey?

"Or killing sons and daughters when promiscuous or rebellious."

In our present diaspora, we live in other countries which may generally prevent us from obeying capital punishment Torah portions....so these may not be observable again until Dt. 30:1-8, as Moses prophesied.

"Or stoning a rapist or adulterer.  When's the last time the church practiced that?"

Evidently there's a case in 1Cor.5:5.

But now, in our diaspora, we are generally not able to obey capital punishment Torah portions.  But we will, again, obey 100% of all Torah in the future (Dt.30:1-8).

"Or wearing sideburns. "

Doesn't seem to tough, eh?

"Or wearing tassels on your hats"

Not required....

"and bottom of your robes"

Not required on all robes...merely on your garment with four corners....I don't think I own such a garment....I don't think we are commanded to buy such a garment....

" Or all of those Feast Days?"

Paul COMMANDS feasts (e.g., 1Cor.5:7-8).

But the feast are, of course, not technically fully observable in diaspora (Lam.1:4).

But you can still commemorate at least some of the feasts, as Paul evidently requires in 1Cor.5:7-8.

"Which laws are in concrete and stone for the Christians and which ones are not?  And why?"

ALL Torah of Moses passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33).....we simply can't obey it all until Dt. 30:1-8 happens.

So, for now, we grow in obedience to those portions which can be obeyed....

"I'm not getting explicitly understanding of what you guys mean when you say Christians should obey the law.  "

I think I've explained it better now....I hope....

"Which ones and why?"

ALL that you can!  But not 100% until Dt. 30:1-8.

blessings....