Should Christians Obey Torah?

[BibleGuy]

On 11/7/2019 at 7:55 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

If one buys a Nuclear Reactor, the best thing one could do is read and follow the instructions  if your desire is for things to go well......same thing goes for trying to read and obey the Torah— it’s God”s instruction book for fallen Mankind .Things will go well if it is followed.As Paul said, the Law is of utmost value when it is used properly.Proper use of the Law is to let it lead you to Christ because nobody except Jesus can keep it.Obey the Laws Of Nuclear Plant construction and obey the Laws Of  God for your own benefit .Obeying rules can keep you from blowing up the country and it can keep you from living a defeated life and that’s about it....obedience to rules , no matter how beneficial can save. Faith in the Blood Of Jesus can.Go with that.

" nobody except Jesus can keep it."

Not true.  Moses said it is NOT too difficult (Dt. 30:11).

Luke said it's NOT too hard to obey ALL Torah (Lk.1:6).

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19), and He said it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

On 11/8/2019 at 4:25 PM, Wayne222 said:

What laws ? The ten c commandments ? The law is the old covenant brother. We live by faith now. The just shall live by faith.

 

ALL TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes into the New Covenant.

So, we should obey ALL observable Torah portions.

The Old Covenant passes away (Heb.8:13), but the SAME TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

LIVE BY FAITH means OBEY TORAH....because FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Ps.119:30,86,138).

Paul quotes Hab.2:4...and the SAME WORD FOR FAITH is used for Torah (Ps.119:30,86,138).

Paul says Torah (Dt.30:14) IS the very word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

We lived by FAITH in the OLD COVENANT too (Dt.32:20).

SAME FAITH...just like Abraham....who was of FAITH....and who also OBEYED GOD's LAWS (Ge.26:5).

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/9/2019 at 8:27 AM, Wayne222 said:

The just shall live by faith. The law is not of faith. We are to keep the commandments of the new testament.  Not the laws of the old testaments. Do you keep the seventh day sabbath ? 

"The just shall live by faith"

That's Paul quoting Hab. 2:4 referring to אֱמוּנָה

What is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" by which Paul says we should live?  Answer: TORAH! (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps.119:30,86,138).

 

"The law is not of faith"

Of COURSE faithless law is not of faith!

BUT!

Jesus says faith is of Torah (Mt.23:23).

Again, Paul says TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very word of FAITH he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

After all, Torah REQUIRES faith (Dt. 18:15;32:20)....so of COURSE faith and Torah go together!

So let's not confuse FAITHLESS-Torah-obedience (which Paul opposes) with the FAITHFUL-Torah-obedience (which Paul requires).

 

"We are to keep the commandments of the new testament."

Great!  Then obey ALL TORAH! (2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Heb.8:10;10:16)....even the SMALLEST of Torah commands (Mt.5:19).

 

"Not the laws of the old testament."

OOPS!  The SAME Torah of Moses passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

 

"Do you keep the seventh day Sabbath?"

My employer gives me the day off...

 

Do you keep Jesus' words? (Mt.5:19)

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:04 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Notice that Jesus never said to keep the Commandments Of Moses ( 613 of them ). Jesus left us with only two commands—Believe and Love.

Actually, Jesus requires even the SMALLEST of the commands of Torah (Mt.5:19).

And who said 613?  Maimonides?

That's the WRONG number!

After all, Dt. 4:15 did not even make his list!

"Jesus left us with only two commands—Believe and Love."

OOPS!  Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37).  Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) requires obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25), not merely the "two commands".

Agreed?

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:55 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

I am too preoccupied enjoying the current Age Of Grace to worry about the Tribulation and the Millenium Periods . I believe that there is so much mystery in regard to those times , so much speculation ,despite the considerable information that has been given to us , that I will let others debate it . I just ain’t interested.All I Do is Rest In the Gospel Of Grace and try to get others to join me.Anything beyond that, I usually leave to others.

Yes, grace is wonderful!

BUT!

Grace extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6), and humble people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

I hope your view of GRACE does not lead you to oppose God's Torah which we should obey (Mt.5:19;Heb.8:10).

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/9/2019 at 2:36 PM, saved34 said:

If by Torah you mean the Law, then no. The Law is righteous and good but it is not designed to make us righteous. Our practical righteousness comes from keeping in step with the Holy Spirit, not from a fleshly observance of the Law. Observing the Law is not of faith so it will never be accepted by God.

Gal 3:12  The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

It is an old covenant or way in which God dealt with man until our savior Jesus Christ came and met all it’s requirements on our behalf and ushered in this age or Covenant of grace in his own blood. We are now under the New Testament which is superior in every way imaginable. 

"The Law is righteous and good but it is not designed to make us righteous."

Actually, we are justified by WORKS (Jas.2:24), NOT FAITH ALONE (Jas.2:24).

And works of righteousness are something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Works of what?  Works of TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19)...even the SMALLEST of Torah commands (Mt.5:19).....lest we be called least (Mt.5:19)....

or worse (Mt.5:20)....

or worse (Mt.7:21-23)....

or worse (Mt.13:41-42).....

 

"Our practical righteousness comes from keeping in step with the Holy Spirit"

And the SPIRIT testifies we should obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27).

After all, Torah-disobedience is BAD (Rom.8:7)....and the Spirit leads us to NOT BE IN THE FLESH (Rom.8:7,13), which means the Spirit leads us to OBEY TORAH....not disobey!

 

"not from a fleshly observance of the Law."

That's a contradiction!  The flesh CAN NOT OBEY THE LAW (Rom.8:7).

Thus, the SPIRIT leads us to obey the law (Rom.8:7,13).

 

" Observing the Law is not of faith"

Wrong!  The law REQUIRES faith (Dt.32:20).

The law REQUIRES faith (Dt.18:15).

The law is of FAITH (Mt.23:23).

The law is of FAITH (Ps.119:30,86,138).

Let's be corrected by these Scriptures.....

 

" it will never be accepted by God."

Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28)....

Jesus was not joking!

 

"It is an old covenant"

True.  The OLD covenant passes away (Heb.8:13).

But the SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) passes into the NEW Covenant.

NEW Covenant.

SAME Torah.

 

"way in which God dealt with man until our savior Jesus Christ came"

Actually, Mt. 5:19 applies to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).  It still applies!

 

"this age or Covenant of grace"

Grace was present in Ex. 33:13...when Moses chose to response to that grace by seeking to know God's WAYS (Ex.33:13) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

SAME Grace then as now.

SAME Torah then as now.

 

"We are now under the New Testament which is superior in every way imaginable. "

True!  

Torah was DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9)

Torah is OBEYED in the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10).

Obedience is SUPERIOR to disobedience!

Agreed!

blessings...

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by BibleGuy

[BibleGuy]

On 11/9/2019 at 2:40 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

That’s great .... I encourage your discussion and I hope everybody learns from it.....it’s just not my thing....the only point I would make , getting back to the original question about Christians Obeying the Torah......The answer is “ NO”. We are “ new creatures” with “new hearts”. The Indwelling Holy Spirit is what we Trust now to guide us.Resting in  the Grace of  the Gospel, knowing all of our sins are forgiven will stir up Love which accomplishes more obedience by accident , than trying to obey rules on purpose could ever do.That’s why God has extended this amazing Grace to all Believers .He knows it works.Its all about Love....not rule-keeping .God Bless.

"getting back to the original question about Christians Obeying the Torah......The answer is “ NO”"

What about all the Biblical evidence I cited, when I started this thread?  No concern about those Scriptures?

"The Indwelling Holy Spirit is what we Trust"

The SPIRIT testifies we should obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27).

The Spirit does NOT leads us to be in the flesh (Rom.8:13)...and the flesh DISOBEYS Torah (Rom.8:7)....so the Spirit does NOT lead us to disobey Torah.....so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah!

 

"Resting in  the Grace of  the Gospel"

GRACE extends to the humble (Jas.4:6); and humble people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3).

The GOSPEL was preached by Paul....and it was the word of FAITH which he preached.

Hey wait....what's this?  Paul says TORAH (Dt.30:14) IS the very substance of that word of faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Cool!

 

"Its all about Love....not rule-keeping"

If you LOVE, then you OBEY TORAH (1Jn.5:3).

Jesus agrees, citing Dt. 6:5,25 at Mt.22:37.

Jesus agrees again, Jn.14:15, implying you obey Mt. 5:19 to prove your love for Jesus.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/13/2019 at 6:20 AM, johnthebaptist said:

I hear people say the Torah isn't properly translated, thus releasing us from the obligation to obey the Lord's commandments, but the Lord certainly had the desire and ability to see to it his words were properly translated.

And I hear people say that the Lord was speaking to the Jews in the Old Testament, and therefore we aren't bound to it.  I would agree that the Lord was talking to the Jews, but if he says something, such as homosexuality, is an abomination, then it's an abomination. That is true for all of us, not just Jews.

"I hear people say that the Lord was speaking to the Jews in the Old Testament"

Torah is for ALL ISRAEL (Mal.4:4), and YOU are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12;Heb.8:8;Hos. 1 cited at Rom.9:24-26).

That's why Christians should obey the Torah for Israel....because CHRISTIANS ARE ISRAELITES!

After all:  CHURCH = ISRAEL! 

Yes, the "ἐκκλησία" is ISRAEL!  (Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10)

Christians are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8) who should obey the Torah given to us (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;Mal.4:4).

blessings...

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

5 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Yes, grace is wonderful!

BUT!

Grace extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6), and humble people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

I hope your view of GRACE does not lead you to oppose God's Torah which we should obey (Mt.5:19;Heb.8:10).

blessings...

 

I do not oppose the Torah .Neither do I oppose Hammurabi’s Code or The Boy Scout’s Code.One should go for wisdom and good rules wherever they can find them.No collections of wisdom and rules are gonna save anybody .The Torah leads to the Savior .That is it’s main purpose and value.The Law artificially points to and tries to control behavior that comes naturally to a New Heart that is motivated by Love.Paul said that the Law was “ weak” in that it has no power to save—- why not go to where the Power is at — the Gospel!Paul also said that the Law was good. IF one knows how to use it. The Law served its purpose in my life......it shut me up and showed me I had to have a Savior.Im done with it .I let the Holy Spirit guide me now. I obey more laws by accident now than I ever did trying to live by a Code.

[johnthebaptist]

1 minute ago, BibleGuy said:

"I hear people say that the Lord was speaking to the Jews in the Old Testament"

Torah is for ALL ISRAEL (Mal.4:4), and YOU are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12;Heb.8:8;Hos. 1 cited at Rom.9:24-26).

That's why Christians should obey the Torah for Israel....because CHRISTIANS ARE ISRAELITES!

After all:  CHURCH = ISRAEL! 

Yes, the "ἐκκλησία" is ISRAEL!  (Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10)

Christians are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8) who should obey the Torah given to us (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;Mal.4:4).

blessings...

 

I read there are 613 commandments, laws, decrees, statutes, and ordinances in the Bible. Do you have them memorized?