THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[BibleGuy]

18 minutes ago, omega2xx said:

I am not going to reply to this post until you answer my questions  about if you keeping the law perfectly all the time.

I'm sorry!  Did I forget to answer?

I'll try again....

Jesus requires perfection (Mt.5:48) and says it's easy (Mt.11:30)....

So, I have no reason to suppose that I'm not satisfying that condition....

After all, PERFECTION is not SINLESSNESS....

Mt. 5:48 is simply a quotation of Dt. 18:13.

And even those who are "תָּמִים" (Dt.18:13) might sin....but if they do, Torah makes provision for it.....and they remain "תָּמִים".

Likewise, the BLOOD cleanses us from all sin (1Jn.1:7)....thus we are "תָּמִים" in His sight, as we grow in faithful Torah-obedience as He requires.

Agreed?

 

[omega2xx]

4 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

I'm sorry!  Did I forget to answer?

I'll try again....

Jesus requires perfection (Mt.5:48) and says it's easy (Mt.11:30)....

So, I have no reason to suppose that I'm not satisfying that condition....

After all, PERFECTION is not SINLESSNESS....

Mt. 5:48 is simply a quotation of Dt. 18:13.

And even those who are "תָּמִים" (Dt.18:13) might sin....but if they do, Torah makes provision for it.....and they remain "תָּמִים".

Likewise, the BLOOD cleanses us from all sin (1Jn.1:7)....thus we are "תָּמִים" in His sight, as we grow in faithful Torah-obedience as He requires.

Agreed?

 

Answer the questions or forget this discussion.

[BibleGuy]

22 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, fun. I hope no-one gets stung to death by sin. 

1Co 15:54-58
(54)  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55)  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56)  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57)  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(58)  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be you stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as you know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Good one!

And so STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7)....

Oops...I was only supposed to quote the Scriptures....

Ok...I lost.....

:-)

 

[BibleGuy]

19 minutes ago, omega2xx said:

Answer the questions:  do you obey all of the Torah   perfectly all the time?  Will you get to  heaven based on your keeping all of the Torah perfectly all the time?

Jas 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles on one point, he has become guilty of all.

love, peace, joy

 

"Answer the questions:  do you obey all of the Torah   perfectly all the time?  Will you get to  heaven based on your keeping all of the Torah perfectly all the time?"

PERFECTION is not SINLESSNESS....so sure, I'd say I meet that standard....after all, Jesus said it's easy (Mt.11:30).

But do I "get to heaven" based on my works without any faith required?  OF COURSE NOT!

ONLY BY THE BLOOD (1Jn.1:7) are we purified from sin....

FAITH IN THE BLOOD......

But we obey Torah too (Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3) as required.

 

"Jas 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles on one point, he has become guilty of all."

That's a GOOD reason to obey Torah!  I appreciate the encouragement!

Let's not stumble....let's OBEY (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3;2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Dt.6:5,25).

 

blessings...

 

[Alive]

Gal. 4:21   Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not ^alisten to the law? ²² For it is written that Abraham had two sons, ^aone by the bondwoman and ^bone by the free woman. ²³ But ^athe son by the bondwoman ¹was born according to the flesh, and ^bthe son by the free woman through the promise. ^{24 1a}This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from ^bMount Sinai bearing children ²who are to be ^cslaves; ³she is Hagar. ²⁵ Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. ²⁶ But ^athe Jerusalem above is free; ¹she is our mother.

²⁷  For it is written,

“^aREJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;

BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;

FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE

THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

²⁸ And you brethren, ^alike Isaac, are ^bchildren of promise. ²⁹ But as at that time ^ahe who was born according to the flesh ^bpersecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, ^cso it is now also.

³⁰  But what does the Scripture say?

“^aCAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,

FOR ^bTHE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

³¹ So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, ¹but of the free woman.

 

Gal. 5:1   ^1aIt was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore ^bkeep standing firm and do not be subject again to a ^cyoke of slavery.

 

Gal. 5:2   Behold I, ^aPaul, say to you that if you receive ^bcircumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. ³ And I ^atestify again to every man who receives ^bcircumcision, that he is under obligation to ^ckeep the whole Law. ⁴ You have been severed from Christ, you who ¹are seeking to be justified by law; you have ^afallen from grace. ⁵ For we ¹through the Spirit, ²by faith, are ^awaiting for the hope of righteousness. ⁶ For in ^aChrist Jesus ^bneither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but ^cfaith working through love.

[BibleGuy]

28 minutes ago, Alive said:

No--you are twisting scripture in order to confuse others and elevate yourself. You think you are so clever.

You are causing distress to good hearted members here with your nonsense.

You are trying to teach precisely what Paul battled on behalf of the Galatians.

You ought to be ashamed, but I suspect the opposite is true. Rather you are puffed up in your own estimation.

 

"No--you are twisting scripture"

Rather, I simply point out that TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33)....it's an untwisted Hebrew word....no twisting....TORAH ("תּוֹרָה")....QUOTED at Heb. 10:16.

 

" to confuse others"

I'm sorry!  Don't be confused.  It's just TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).    No confusion.

 

"and elevate yourself."

Forget about me....look at the SCRIPTURES.....I'm not selling you anything.....just look at the SCRIPTURES....

I'm not a pastor who needs your money....

I'm not an author who needs to sell you books....

I'm not a parachurch business organization with an agenda for a business model....

I'm just a guy pointing to the Bible...that's all....

I won't even tell you my name....it doesn't matter....just look at the BIBLE.  TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

"You are causing distress to good hearted members here with your nonsense."

That would be awful....but I don't really think that's true....

 

"You are trying to teach precisely what Paul battled on behalf of the Galatians."

Rather, Paul requires FAITH (Gal.3:11 citing "אֱמוּנָה" in Hab.2:4).  And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" required by Paul?  Answer:  TORAH!  (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof).

Again, Paul says TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of the faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Again, Paul says the New Covenant consists of Torah being obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

So don't blame me!  I'm just telling you what Paul said!

Paul said we who do the law will be JUSTIFIED (Rom.2:13)...and Paul AFFIRMED the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom. 2:27).

 

"You ought to be ashamed"

I am NOT ashamed of the Gospel (Rom.1:16) which is the word of faith (Rom.10:8) exhibited in TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) and GRACE (Rom.3:24) and WORKS (Jas.2:24) and the SPIRIT (1Cor.6:11).

ALL.

TOGETHER.

 

"but I suspect the opposite is true. "

TORAH is truth (Ps. 119:142) in which we should REJOICE (1Cor.13:6), not OPPOSE!

 

"Rather you are puffed up in your own estimation."

Rather, the more I learn, the more I see I've scarcely scratched the surface...Rom. 11:33

And TORAH is for the HUMBLE (not the proud)....Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13.

So, I'm seeking humble Torah-obedience....not pride.

I OPPOSE pride.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts....

blessings....

 

[Alive]

No--what you are is a tool of the enemy and you 'will' be found out.

I repeat--you are causing distress among young members here.

I ask you to stop.

[BibleGuy]

11 minutes ago, Alive said:

Gal. 4:21   Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not ^alisten to the law? ²² For it is written that Abraham had two sons, ^aone by the bondwoman and ^bone by the free woman. ²³ But ^athe son by the bondwoman ¹was born according to the flesh, and ^bthe son by the free woman through the promise. ^{24 1a}This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from ^bMount Sinai bearing children ²who are to be ^cslaves; ³she is Hagar. ²⁵ Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. ²⁶ But ^athe Jerusalem above is free; ¹she is our mother.

²⁷  For it is written,

“^aREJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;

BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;

FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE

THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

²⁸ And you brethren, ^alike Isaac, are ^bchildren of promise. ²⁹ But as at that time ^ahe who was born according to the flesh ^bpersecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, ^cso it is now also.

³⁰  But what does the Scripture say?

“^aCAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,

FOR ^bTHE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

³¹ So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, ¹but of the free woman.

 

Gal. 5:1   ^1aIt was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore ^bkeep standing firm and do not be subject again to a ^cyoke of slavery.

 

Gal. 5:2   Behold I, ^aPaul, say to you that if you receive ^bcircumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. ³ And I ^atestify again to every man who receives ^bcircumcision, that he is under obligation to ^ckeep the whole Law. ⁴ You have been severed from Christ, you who ¹are seeking to be justified by law; you have ^afallen from grace. ⁵ For we ¹through the Spirit, ²by faith, are ^awaiting for the hope of righteousness. ⁶ For in ^aChrist Jesus ^bneither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but ^cfaith working through love.

Gal. 4?  Good point!  The OLD COVENANT (Gal.4:24;Heb.8:13) passes away....

But the SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10;10:16).

NEW covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Torah was DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10).

 

Gal. 5:1?  Agreed!  OPPOSE the yoke of slavery to works without faith.

Thus, Paul requires works (2Ti.3:16) AND faith (Gal.3:11).

Paul requires TORAH (Rom.2:13) AND FAITH (Rom.5:1) for justification.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

And Gal. 5:1 says we are free in CHRIST!  And Christ requires TORAH (Mt.5:19).  So be FREE to obey Torah in Christ and enjoy all the blessings!

 

Gal.5:2?  of COURSE we oppose adult-male-convert-circumcision.....after all, Torah does not even require it!

Why would you trust in faithless human works (e.g., circumcision), rather than the blood of Christ (1Jn.1:7)?  That would be silly.....

 

ONLY the blood purifies us from sin (1Jn.1:7).

 

And the same Paul who wrote Galatians requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19)....so keep that in mind!

 

Good points.

blessings....

 

[BibleGuy]

10 minutes ago, Alive said:

No--what you are is a tool of the enemy and you 'will' be found out.

I repeat--you are causing distress among young members here.

I ask you to stop.

Now that's a SERIOUS accusation....

But where's the evidence?

After all, we don't want another pseudo-impeachment hearing (as against Trump), right?

Let's have EVIDENCE please....

Sure, you have a THEOLOGICAL disagreement...but is that good reason to kick me away?

Of COURSE it can be stressful to realize that we have drifted from our Torah-obedient Biblical roots....

After all, THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were zealous for all Torah....

But now, Christians are often zealous for OPPOSING Torah!

My how times have changed....

But the BIBLE has not changed.....

I'll stick with the Bible....

Please don't cast me out for sharing my Biblical perspective....

Instead:  DEFEND your position before us....SHOW US why I'm wrong.....

Or if you can't, then repent, and learn and grow!

I wish you the best in your search for truth....

blessings...

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by BibleGuy

[BibleGuy]

38 minutes ago, omega2xx said:

Answer the questions or forget this discussion.

I just told you I have no reason to suppose I'm not satisfying the condition.

blessings....