THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[BibleGuy]

34 minutes ago, DustyRoad said:

Interesting how you're incapable of furnishing a simple answer to a direction question, BibleGuy. You do seem to be rather fond of showing off your grasp of Greek and Hebrew however … an indicator that you're very likely all bark and little bite my friend. He who toots his own horn makes nothing more than a noisome racket.

Here's what I was able to distill from your flashy nonsense, BibleGuy:

Yes, you keep the law (Torah) perfectly. I highlighted your actual answer to a very simple question in the quote above. Thanks, that's precisely what everyone in the forum needs to know about you. 

And I trust you keep it perfectly too....

After all, Jesus said it's easy (Mt.11:30).

"I highlighted your actual answer to a very simple question in the quote above."

Glad you saw the answer!

I trust you keep it perfectly too....

It's easy (Mt.11:30).

"Thanks, that's precisely what everyone in the forum needs to know about you."

That we keep it perfectly? (Mt.5:48)...Why is that most important?

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

7 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

I think some are unable to deal with the freedom that Christ offers. It means letting go of all control of our salvation, and that can be scary. Clinging to the law, which gives a false sense of involvement and control, is like a shipwrecked man clinging to his life raft and refusing to leap into the rescue boat.

"Clinging to the law, which gives a false sense of involvement and control..."

Rather, we OBEY because we LOVE (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25)....not because we seek a false sense of "involvement and control".

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

42 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

at the time of writing Galations, circumcision was essential to keep Torah. It STILL IS. So dont pretend it isnt. You know I am speaking truth, as the daughter of a Jew.

The whole circumcised/uncircumcised argument was meaningless if circumcision was not essential to be under the Law and to practice it. Therefore, under Jewish law at the time, to not be circumcised mean not being under the Law, as the Law was impossible to keep as an uncircumcised man. They couldnt even enter the temple or give a sacrifice, they could only go to one of the outer courts.

You know this. I dont know why you are twisting words to pretend this wasnt so. Paul knew EXACTLY what he was saying, and how it would be understood by his audience.

I have noticed that those who quote single random scriptures are usually twisting something which is uncovered when the surrounding scriptures are read.

Try reading 1 Corinthians 7, but read from verse 17 to 21.

"at the time of writing Galations, circumcision was essential to keep Torah. It STILL IS. "

Sure...for INFANTS.

The ongoing mark of circumcision is for INFANTS (Ge.17:12;Lev.12:3), not adult-male-Gentile-converts.

 

"So dont pretend it isnt. You know I am speaking truth, as the daughter of a Jew."

I KNOW that the ongoing mark of circumcision is for INFANTS (Ge.17:12;Lev.12:3), not adult-male-Gentile-converts, regardless of whatever Jewish tradition in which you may have been raised.

 

"The whole circumcised/uncircumcised argument was meaningless if circumcision was not essential to be under the Law and to practice it. "

The whole circumcised/uncircumcised argument was meaningless for adult-male-Gentile-converts because Torah does not require it!

 

"Therefore, under Jewish law at the time, to not be circumcised mean not being under the Law"

Jewish TRADITIONAL law?  Or Jewish BIBLICAL law? (they're not the same!)

 

" as the Law was impossible to keep as an uncircumcised man. "

Paul disagrees.  Paul applies God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which, of course, are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3), to the GENTILE-INCLUSIVE Corinthian congregation (1Cor.7:19)...

Thus, Paul APPLIES Torah to Gentiles...but does NOT require adult-male-Gentile-convert-circumcision....

CONCLUSION:  Paul accepts that Torah does NOT require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision....because Torah does not even require it!

 

"They couldnt even enter the temple or give a sacrifice, they could only go to one of the outer courts."

Which verse did you have to support that?

 

"You know this. I dont know why you are twisting words to pretend this wasnt so. "

How can you know what I know...unless you ask!  

And you probably do NOT know how I seek to harmonize the (admittedly complex) Biblical circumcision data.

So let's talk about it!

 

" Paul knew EXACTLY what he was saying, and how it would be understood by his audience."

Sure!  1Cor.7:19 tells ALL believers to obey TORAH...and it affirms that adult-convert circumcision is NOT required....because hey....Torah doesn't even require it, as far as I can tell.

 

"I have noticed that those who quote single random scriptures are usually twisting something which is uncovered when the surrounding scriptures are read."

This is not my first time addressing the Biblical circumcision data....I've been seeking to harmonize these passages for years.

I've decided Paul requires ALL TORAH (2Ti.3:16) for Gentiles, while simultaneously OPPOSING adult-convert circumcision (1Cor.7:19)....because TORAH does not require it.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

9 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

Your version of Torah is nothing I have ever learned anywhere or read in scripture.

Sure it is!  EXODUS and LEVITICUS and NUMBERS and DEUTERONOMY....that's what the WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES IS (as in 1K.2:3).

Moses wrote it.

It's called the Written Torah of Moses.

It passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

Surely you've read these portions of the Bible before....

Maybe you just haven't realize that Jesus and the Apostles actually teach Torah for all disciples of all nations.....

But hey....Paul TOLD US we would drift into apostasy (2Th.2:3)....and sure enough...here we are....with a couple billion Christians....most of whom have no clue they should even obey Torah.

But take heart!  We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt.30:1-8)....although I expect it will be several more centuries, easily, before that happens....

blessings...

 

[omega2xx]

2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"Answer the questions:  do you obey all of the Torah   perfectly all the time?  Will you get to  heaven based on your keeping all of the Torah perfectly all the time?"

PERFECTION is not SINLESSNESS....so sure, I'd say I meet that standard....after all, Jesus said it's easy (Mt.11:30).

But do I "get to heaven" based on my works without any faith required?  OF COURSE NOT!

ONLY BY THE BLOOD (1Jn.1:7) are we purified from sin....

FAITH IN THE BLOOD......

But we obey Torah too (Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3) as required.

 

"Jas 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles on one point, he has become guilty of all."

That's a GOOD reason to obey Torah!  I appreciate the encouragement!

Let's not stumble....let's OBEY (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3;2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Dt.6:5,25).

 

blessings...

 

Answer the questions or change he subject.

Love, peace, joy

[omega2xx]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

I just told you I have no reason to suppose I'm not satisfying the condition.

blessings....

 

Have a nice day.

Love, peace, joy

[Blood Bought 1953]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

No--you are twisting scripture in order to confuse others and elevate yourself. You think you are so clever.

You are causing distress to good hearted members here with your nonsense.

You are trying to teach precisely what Paul battled on behalf of the Galatians.

You ought to be ashamed, but I suspect the opposite is true. Rather you are puffed up in your own estimation.

 

The Galation Church was RUINED by theses types.....Here is the warning from Paul.... “CAST OUT the Bondwoman and her Son”. They will attack the descendants of the Free Woman with their dying breaths!

 “A little leaven leaveth the whole lump”

In the end, the Galation Church deserted Paul and went with the Legalists.....Satan and the Judaizers won.....I would hate to see that happen here......I think it serves a great service to use the Modern-Day Judaizers as “ springboards” to get the True Gospel Of Grace out there, But Biblically speaking, Paul was right to say “kick them out”.......that “ still “ was not enough .....they had been ruined and in the end, they , along with just about everybody else deserted Paul and his Gospel Of Grace. These Legalists are dangerous ......we should stop  toying with them.....

[blessedwoman]

Hello, usually these types of debates become confusing for me.

From what i understand, as a Gentile, i shouldn't be burdened to observe the Jewish laws because im not physically a Jew. Yes, spiritually im a Jew but physically a Gentile.

Acts 15:19-29 (NKJV)
 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—
 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Edited November 22, 2019 by blessedwoman
*misspelled usually.

[blessedwoman]

8 hours ago, maryjayne said:

I think some are unable to deal with the freedom that Christ offers. It means letting go of all control of our salvation, and that can be scary. Clinging to the law, which gives a false sense of involvement and control, is like a shipwrecked man clinging to his life raft and refusing to leap into the rescue boat.

I agree with you on this, for some, it is just too good to be true.

Hallelujah that Jesus says,

John 8:36 (KJV)

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Also, Jesus maximizes on the word rest througout scripture.

A person can't rest if they think they must keep the law in order to obtain salvation. I had read earlier a man on here say he got a circumcized.

I felt bad because His Word says men don't have the need to do that anymore.

The man may think it's due to personal reasons but what if he did it as a "just in case" thing?

Galatians 5:3-6 (KJV)

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

If a man becomes born again, it is his faith that pleases The Lord, if anything, Jesus would be most pleased by the man leaving himself alone and focusing on working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

If you weren't circumcized as an infant, what is your real reason for it after you've already read what His Word said about it?

That is just my opinion on it.

[BibleGuy]

8 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

The Galation Church was RUINED by theses types.....Here is the warning from Paul.... “CAST OUT the Bondwoman and her Son”. They will attack the descendants of the Free Woman with their dying breaths!

 “A little leaven leaveth the whole lump”

In the end, the Galation Church deserted Paul and went with the Legalists.....Satan and the Judaizers won.....I would hate to see that happen here......I think it serves a great service to use the Modern-Day Judaizers as “ springboards” to get the True Gospel Of Grace out there, But Biblically speaking, Paul was right to say “kick them out”.......that “ still “ was not enough .....they had been ruined and in the end, they , along with just about everybody else deserted Paul and his Gospel Of Grace. These Legalists are dangerous ......we should stop  toying with them.....

Hi there!

"The Galation Church was RUINED by theses types"

But YOU told me that it's GOOD and WISE to obey Torah!

 

"“CAST OUT the Bondwoman and her Son”"

The Bondwoman refers to the COVENANT (Gal.4:24)....not the TORAH of the covenant

 

Of COURSE the Old Covenant passes away (Heb.8:13).

And the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16)...otherwise Jeremiah was a FALSE PROPHET (given Dt.13:1-15).

 

Torah was DISOBEYED in the OLD Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is OBEYED in the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10).

 

"They will attack the descendants of the Free Woman with their dying breaths!"

True!  So be SURE to OPPOSE those who seek justification by law without faith (Gal.5:4-5).

After all, Paul requires justification by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"“A little leaven leaveth the whole lump”"

Then OPPOSE those Pharisees who did NOT obey all Torah (Mt.23:23)....and obey ALL Torah as Jesus requires! (Mt.5:19).

lest you be LEAST (Mt.5:19)

or worse (Mt.5:20)

or worse (Mt.7:21-23)

or worse (Mt.13:41-42).

 

"In the end, the Galation Church deserted Paul and went with the Legalists"

Terrible!  We should obey Paul who requires all Torah (2Ti.3:16) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

LEGALISM is bad....because LEGALISM is seeking salvation by works without faith....that's BAD.

We should obey law (2Ti.3:16) AND have faith (Gal.3:11).

We should obey law (Dt.30:14) AND have faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

We should be justified by law (Rom.2:13) AND faith (Rom.5:1).

 

"Satan and the Judaizers won...."

Tragic.....Satan inspires the antichrist to OPPOSE Torah (2Th.2:3)....so we should OBEY TORAH....otherwise we're working for the wrong team!

JUDAIZING is bad....remember Peter's hypocrisy?

 

"I would hate to see that happen here.."

Agreed.  So let's obey Torah....as even YOU have repeatedly told me that it's good to do that.

 

"I think it serves a great service to use the Modern-Day Judaizers as “ springboards” to get the True Gospel Of Grace out there"

Great point.  If you find one, let me know.  I oppose Modern-Day Judaizers too.....just like I oppose Peter's hypocrisy.

And GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34)....and HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

Glad you agree that it's good to obey Torah!

 

" These Legalists are dangerous ......we should stop  toying with them....."

Agreed!  Let's go find them and refute them!

And again, I'm glad we agree that it's good and wise to obey Torah, as you've repeatedly told me here in these forums.

 

blessings...