THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 1:31 PM, Wayne222 said:

Anyway if anyone reads the new testament it shows we live by faith and not the law.

OOPS!  FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

FAITH IS OF TORAH (given Dt.32:20).

Torah-obedience (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of the FAITH Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Paul requires FAITH (citing "אֱמוּנָה" from Hab.2:4 at Gal.3:11).  And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" by which Paul says we must live?  Answer:  TORAH!  (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for proof).

After all, Paul cites Is.59:20-21 (Rom.11:26-27) which confirms the New Covenant consists of Torah being obeyed "from now and forever".

Paul applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16).

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 2:08 PM, Wayne222 said:

We are to put sin to death in the new man. This is not torah keeping. Its walking in the spirit.

The SPIRIT opposes the FLESH (Rom.8:13)….the FLESH opposes TORAH (Rom.8:7)….so the SPIRIT opposes Torah-disobedience.....so the Spirit leads us to OBEY TORAH!

Again, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16).

Again, the Spirit leads us to obey even all Torah ordinances (Eze. 36:27).

Again, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27).

So walk in the Spirit means KEEP TORAH!

After all, SIN is TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  So, STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH!

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

5 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

In scripture, circumcision is a term used to indicate following Torah. It would be both impossible and blasphemous for a man to try to follow Torah uncircumcised in the time the Bible was written. Even today on a few places would allow it for a Jew.

so using the term Torah and circumcised would be an oxymoron. The two went together. It was a form of written and verbal shorthand. here was no need or common use of the words Torah and circumcision as two separate things. It was unthinkable.

I have explained this to you before. It would be like telling someone to eat and swallow. The two acts are not mentioned as they go together automatically and, unless under rare and unusual circumstances, are encompassed in the word  'eat'.

This division of Torah and circumcision is not right or accurate and is twisting the usage.

the above quote is from @BibleGuy upthread

Again, I gave Scriptural support for my position.

You gave no Scriptural counter-argument (just opinion).

So, I must stick with the Bible.

Paul requires ALL TORAH (2Ti.3:16), but NOT adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision(1Cor.7:19)...because Torah does not even require it!

By the way, WHERE is the Scripture that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision for all Gentile converts? 

(still waiting....)

blessings...and Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[BibleGuy]

1 minute ago, maryjayne said:

I do not need scriptural counter argument to correct a misreading or misunderstanding of terminology. and  to explain why the implicit understanding of the term 'circumcised' encompasses more than the single word.

You keep saying that Torah doesnt require gentile conversion, so I can only conclude that you are not speaking to Torah as spoken of in the Bible, but some other Torah. I still dont have any explanation from you as to what the Torah you keep taking about means. Due to the lack of requirement for circumcision, you clearly dont mean the Law of Moses.

The ongoing mark of MOSAIC circumcision is INFANT circumcision (Lev.12:3), not adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

You've given no Scripture to disconfirm this fact.

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 2:47 PM, Cletus said:

Circumcision is of the heart.  King David's words in psalm 51 do not reflect one who lives by the law in the OT covenant but understands the concept of having a relationship with A God who is Spirit and if we are to worship Him we are to worship in Spirit and truth.  David even says God did not desire sacrifice... or else He would give it.  When we read thru the prophets and elsewhere in the OT we can see evidence that some people did understand this concept back then.  there is however, nothing new under the sun. 

Many today say the people in the Ot were not saved... how then does David in psalm 51 say restore unto me the joy of thy salvation?  David knew of the joy of salvation?... obviously.   Did David earn His own salvation under the law?  I got 50 dollars to one peso thats a big en oh! So then when David instructed his son Solomon why then did he warn him God would cast him off forever if he did not do Gods will and build the temple?  You see, even back in OT days the law was a schoolmaster to bring us into knowing The LORD.  Aint nothing changed but the date. God is the same.  His ways are the same.  in Him is zero shadow of variance.  The covenant was different, but not God. 

what is said of the hyper grace crowd about keeping the law does not keep or sustain salvation is true...  but, it does not nullify obedience which is BETTER than sacrifice.  God only accepted the sacrifices of those in the OT days who first purified their heart to God FIRST.  Ables sacrifice was accepted because it was in faith. 

obedience is not optional.  well, not if you want to live (zao)

"King David's words in psalm 51 do not reflect one who lives by the law in the OT covenant"

Absolutely false.

Ps. 51 is the repentant heart of a king who shows he PURSUES TORAH-OBEDIENCE.

Ps. 51:1 upholds GRACE which extends to the humble (Pr.3:34;Jas.4:6), and humble people obey Torah (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

Ps. 51:1 upholds MERCY which is given to those who OBEY Torah (Ex. 20:6).

Ps. 51:2 requests cleansing from INIQUITY, which is cleansing from TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE. 

Ps. 51:2 request cleansing from SIN, which is cleansing from TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE (Is.42:24).

Ps. 51:3 shows remorse for sin and transgression, BOTH of which are Torah-disobedience....thus David proves he now is choosing to walk in repentant Torah-obedience.

Ps. 51:6 affirms TRUTH which is TORAH (Ps.119:142).

Ps. 51:10 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

Ps. 51:11 confirms David desires to walk in the Spirit in obedience to Torah (by the way, just as Paul requires, Rom. 8:7,13).

Ps. 51:13 affirms that God's WAYS should be taught....and that's TORAH! (1Ki.2:3)

Ps. 51:14 upholds God's righteousness, which is linked to TORAH (Ps.119).

Ps. 51:16-19 affirms that God desires Levitical sacrifices in conjunction with a proper attitude of the heart.

 

Paul APPLIES Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16)….so this applies to YOU too!

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

16 minutes ago, Betha said:

To get some clarification I have to ask you....does ALL TORAH include 'the commandments contained in Ordinances (works) ?

Hi!

Eph. 2 abolishes man-made commandments contained in man-made DOGMA ("δόγμα",Eph.2:15), not TORAH.

There is no Torah commandment which requires that Gentiles and non-Gentiles have a wall of division.

Remember?

Gentiles JOINED Israel (Dt.29).

Gentiles JOINED Israel (Dt.31).

Gentiles JOINED Israel (Is.56).

Believing Gentiles (Rom.9:24-26) ARE the Israelites of Hos. 1 (citing Hos. 1 at Rom.9:24-26).

So, Jesus'  death reaffirms that ALL are now invited to join Israel in Christ.....

We are FELLOW HEIRS (Eph.3:6)...partaking in the SAME TORAH-LADEN COVENANTS (Eph.2:12;Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10)…..

EVERYONE who calls upon Jesus will be saved, and will be included in ISRAEL.

But don't wait too long!

Join Israel now (Eph.2:12), or SERVE Israel later (Is.60:12).

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

7 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

You are still not listening. I am stopping now. Enough scripture has been quoted in all the many threads recently opened on this subject. Time for me to move on.

There was adult male circumcision in Bible times.  And I am explaining the meaning of words, which you are then changing back to something I havent even disputed. Enough.

I still dont know what you mean by Torah, as it is different to Mosaic law.

Hi again!

I'd like to re-state this for further clarification:  The WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (1Ki.2:3) is EXODUS, LEVITICUS, NUMBERS, and DEUTERONOMY.

The ONGOING mark of Mosaic Torah circumcision is INFANT circumcision (Lev.12:3), not adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

You've given no Scripture anywhere to show that the written Torah of Moses requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

If you find a passage, let me know!

Until then, I'll need to stick to the Biblical viewpoint I've set forth.

blessings....

 

[Alive]

Good job, Maryjane.

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, maryjayne said:

Thanks. Notice it's gone quiet in here now? ?

Ssshhh! Quietly I'll venture these passages and see if they get an 

 

Rom 2:23-29

(23)  You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
(24)  For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," as it is written.
(25)  For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
(26)  Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
(27)  And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
(28)  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
(29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 7:4-6

(4)  Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
(5)  For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
(6)  But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
 

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Cletus said:

Lev 4:22  When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
Lev 4:23  Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
Lev 4:24  And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

 

what was it David said in Psalm 51 about God not desiring a sacrifice? 

 

once you realize the words you quoted me on were not targeted to the crowd who understand obedience... those words may make more sense to you.  the point being is if David understood this back then and obedience was important... how much more is it today. 

"what was it David said in Psalm 51 about God not desiring a sacrifice? "

David said God does NOT "delight in sacrifice" (Ps. 51:16).

David said God DOES DELIGHT in RIGHTEOUS BULL SACRIFICES (Ps.51:19).

CONCLUSION:  Obedience is better than sacrifice.  And if you sin, make sure your heart is repentant before God....and sacrifices will be pleasing to God.

blessings...