Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

I don't get a whole lot of time online, so can't keep up with the day-by-day back and forth. Just want to let you know that practically my whole blog is an in-depth study of the various facets of post-trib, pre-wrath, 6th seal Rapture.

What prewrath posttrib theory MISSES: 

John puts the days of GT after the warning not to take the mark in chapter 14, proven by the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven in chapter 15. 

It is proven yet again when one understands that chapters 4 & 5 set the timing of the first seals to 32 AD when Jesus ascended. 

It is proven yet again when one understands that the 5th seal is still church age and for the martyrs of the church age.

Thank God, you have the rapture at the 6th seal right.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Uh, but pre-wrath IS post-trib. Please don't muddy the waters. It may not be your version of post-trib, but pre-wrath is definitely post-trib.

Agreed, classic prewrath thought as taught by Rosenthal and Van Kampen (the originators) is "post trib" because their errors caused them to place the days of GT in the first 5 seals, when John places those days after chapter 14.

Edited November 28, 2019 by iamlamad

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Uh, but pre-wrath IS post-trib. Please don't muddy the waters. It may not be your version of post-trib, but pre-wrath is definitely post-trib.

No, they are vastly different. The Post tribulation rapture theory places the rapture at the end of the final week. Pre Wrath does not do this. We see the rapture at about the midpoint of the final week. This is a rude statement and shows a lack of understanding of the one's you are discussing this with, and the various positions involved.  

[dhchristian]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed, classic prewrath thought as taught by Rosenthal and Van Kampen (the originators) is "post trib" because their errors caused them to place the days of GT in the first 5 seals, when John pleases those days after chapter 14.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (rev. 7:14)

When does this happen? at the time of the sixth seal. meaning the great tribulation is before the sixth seal. The Great tribulation consists of the first five seals un restrained, The first 5 trumpets, The mark of the beast and his 42 months of rule, the plagues of the two witnesses, Basically, a whole lotta perplexity. When the sixth trumpet sounds it gets even worse, Then the two witnesses are killed, and they will be saying peace and security and handing out gifts and celebrating, and then sudden destruction comes, Angels proclaim judgments(Rev. 14), The sixth seal, the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the man of sin is killed all simultaneously as the church is raptured. 

[The Light]

19 hours ago, OneLight said:

How do you compare Matthew 24 with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54?

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

Matt 24 is not the second coming when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth as many believers think and teach. It is the gathering of the believers from heaven and earth to join the Lord in the clouds. The believers will then go to heaven for the marriage supper as the earth goes through the wrath of God. Only those in the nation of Israel (not counting the unrighteous of course) that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up will go through the wrath of God, and they will do so in a place of protection. Immediately after the tribulation the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth (the seed of the woman), are told to look up, their redemption draws nigh. This is when the last trump is blown and it will be on the Feast of Trumpets. The Church will already be in heaven and will not go through the tribulation as we can see them in heaven in Rev 5. The seals are the tribulation period which is the 70th week of Daniel. The wrath of God is not in the tribulation period as we can see that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.(as shown in Rev 6)

Matt 24

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we can see that if the days of the great tribulation were not shortened no flesh would be saved. Most people think this means if the great tribulation was not shortened, there would be no one left alive on earth. However, it really means that if the great tribulation was not shortened all the believers would be killed. Therefore there would be no flesh alive to be caught up to receive salvation. Only the dead would be caught up to receive their incorruptible body, as there would be no one alive that would be saved.

Matt 24

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So Matt 24 shows the coming of Jesus at the last trump. It shows that there would be no flesh alive to receive their incorruptible body when the last trump is blown and Christ returns in the clouds. All eyes will see this coming of the Lord.

[The Light]

On 11/26/2019 at 6:13 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Actually two very different situations proposed by the wise man. But most important of all is the certainty of which of the two situations will be literally fulfilled, for the Truth is only one, do not you think? And which one will be fulfilled?

1st situation: - I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, ...
2nd situation - ... than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation.  Yes indeed! 

Whoever wants to believe, believe, the Truth is only one. What will happen and be fulfilled is the second situation with absolute certainty.
The question is: Who is prepared? 

But wait:  For the elect's sake these days will be shortened. What does it mean? It means that there will be firstly a period of 42 months, no more, no more (Revelation 13:v.5) whose period will be ruled by the religious and satanic Antichrist's Empire through the Beast of sea, whose religious and blasphemer MONSTER has 7 heads, and 10 horns, and upon his (10) horns 10 crowns, and upon his (7) heads the name of blasphemy.

Within this textual picture, suddenly will manifest another Beast, yeah, another Beast will rise up out of the earth with two horns only like a lamb (a false lamb), in other words a false messiah, AN IMPOSTER, and he will manifest himself and will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

But one of the 7 heads of this religious MONSTER of sea will be wounded mortally. This event will occur in the South America, precisely will be located in Brazil. Then the Beast from the earth that speaks as a Dragon will give to the Beast of sea his Power, and his Seat/Throne, and great Authority. Rev. 13:v.2

 

GOD WILL SEND THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
But after the 42 months ruled by the Beast of sea, the Beast from the earth - the ruthless false messiah of the Jews, whose name is Eliyahu, he will assume the top of Antichrist's Empire and will stand, then the terrorific Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel the prophet, and JESUS, will be established in Jerusalem, the holy place. Who will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be DAMNED who believed not the truth - believed not in JESUS-, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thes. 2:v.9-12

 

DANIEL 12:v.11  -  PERIOD OF ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
11 And from the time that...the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 1.290 days.

GOD WILL PROVIDE AN ESCAPE TO THE CHURCH OF THE LORD - BUT HOW?
Rev. 12:v.14 - And to the woman will be given TWO WINGS of a great eagle, that she might FLY into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.  

Isaiah prophesied, saying: 60:v.8- Who are these that FLY as a CLOUD, and AS THE DOVES to their windows? 

Isaiah 40:v.31 But they that WAIT upon the Lord shall RENEW their strength; they shall mount up with WINGS as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. (Did you all understand what do the two wings mean to FLY?) 

These things will happen henceforwards

 

Who is prepared for this time to come?

Daniel 12:v.12 - Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.  
day 1.335 - JESUS returns and His Church will be with Him for ever    

In Christ JESUS, King of kings (kings made by Him) and LORD of lords

The woman is Israel and not the Church. The Church is in heaven, pre trib. The twelve tribes that go through the tribulation are the seed of the woman.

[The Light]

21 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Quote

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (rev. 7:14)

When does this happen? at the time of the sixth seal. meaning the great tribulation is before the sixth seal.

This is correct. We can see this tribulation in Matt 24.

Quote

The Great tribulation consists of the first five seals un restrained, The first 5 trumpets, The mark of the beast and his 42 months of rule, the plagues of the two witnesses, Basically, a whole lotta perplexity. When the sixth trumpet sounds it gets even worse, Then the two witnesses are killed, and they will be saying peace and security and handing out gifts and celebrating, and then sudden destruction comes, Angels proclaim judgments(Rev. 14), The sixth seal, the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the man of sin is killed all simultaneously as the church is raptured. 

The tribulation is the 1st 6 seals. The rest of this is incorrect. You are attempting to put the wrath of God inside the tribulation. We can already see that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. You need to figure out the order of Revelation as the trumpets cannot begin before the 7th seal is opened.

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, The Light said:

The tribulation is the 1st 6 seals. The rest of this is incorrect. You are attempting to put the wrath of God inside the tribulation. We can already see that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. You need to figure out the order of Revelation as the trumpets cannot begin before the 7th seal is opened.

I Disagree.

[The Light]

35 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Disagree.

The trumpets cannot happen before the 7th seal is opened.

Rev 8

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

² And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

[dhchristian]

Just now, The Light said:

The trumpets cannot happen before the 7th seal is opened.

Rev 8

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

² And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Already went over that on here.