BIG ERRORS: The Bride.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

 

Hi Retro,

The context of the scripture reveals plainly whether it is an animal described or a title of the Lord. It is important for that title is used on different occasions for specific purposes.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

53 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

Hi again Retro,

`I, Jesus......am the Root of David...`  (Rev. 22: 16)

Marilyn.

[Dennis1209]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Dennis.

Sure.

Revelation 21:4 is in the context of ...

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great (loud) voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

First, just for clarity, here's the Strong's entries in the Greek Dictionary:

4192 ponos (pon'-os). From the base of penees; toil, i.e. (by implication) anguish
-- pain.

3993 penees (pen'-ace). From a primary penoo (to toil for daily subsistence); starving, i.e. Indigent
-- poor. Compare ptoochos.

4434 ptoochos (pto-khos'). From ptoossoo (to crouch); akin to ptooeoo and the alternate of piptoo); a beggar (as cringing), i.e. Pauper (strictly denoting absolute or public mendicancy, although also used in a qualified or relative sense; whereas penees properly means only straitened circumstances in private), literally (often as noun) or figuratively (distressed)
-- beggar(-ly), poor.

4422 ptooeoo (pto-eh-o). Probably akin to the alternate of piptoo (through the idea of causing to fall) or to petomai (through that of causing to fly away); to scare
-- frighten.

4098 piptoo (pip'-to). A reduplicated and contracted form of petoo (pet'-o); (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to petomai through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally or figuratively) -- fail, fall (down), light on.

4072 petomai (pet-om-ahee). Or prolongation petaomai (pet-ah'-om-ahee), or contracted ptaomai (ptah'-om-ahee) middle voice of a primary verb; to fly -- fly(-ing).

We could keep going, but we'll stop there. The study of the words is quite fascinating, but it's a tangent to what we are discussing.

At this point, I would like to introduce the difference between a verb that ends in omega (-oo) and one that ends in omicron-mu-alpha-iota (-omai):

Typically, a verb that ends in omega is an active voice verb; that is, the subject of that verb is the actor.

A verb that ends in omicron-mu-alpha-iota is a passive voice verb or a middle voice verb, both of which have the subject of the verb being the recipient of the action, either by another (passive) or by himself (middle).

Essentially, this is true although it might be a bit simplistic. Thus, "petomai" technically means "to make oneself fly," being in the middle voice.

The word penees is a participle of penoo, the active verb, and the word "ponos" is the abstract noun from that verbal. Thus, this is the word that means "toil" and the "anguish" that comes from such toil, the lack of which would lead to "starving." This foreshadows the text in Revelation 22:3-5:

Revelation 22:3-5 (KJV)

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

It's reminiscent of Genesis 3:17-19:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

This is the "pain" of this verse.

Well now that that's all cleared up  

As you can tell, I'm not a Hebrew / Greek word scholar, just a regular ole 'looker upper' in Strong's and Zodhiates word studies. You basically confirmed my findings and the point I just discovered about the word 'pain'. Reading this verse [Rev. 21:4], my mind always associated it with no more pain such as in; a painful cut or bruise, broken bone, aching and sore muscles, etc. I now relate it to the pain of work and toil; and not so much as physical pain. So by that; I'm assuming tending, working and producing will be a pleasure and a privilege, rather than by the sweat of the brow, toil, hardship and the curse removed.

Therefore; that leads me to another question from my overactive pondering s. Other than Revelation 21:4, I remember nowhere else in scripture where physical pain is addressed in eternity. To be more specific; there is war going on in the Heaven's between Satan and his minions and God's Heavenly Host, spiritual beings [with Heavenly bodies]. During these battles and wars we see God's Angels can at least be delayed and they fight. No mention of annihilation is ever made in the Bible pertaining to beings that I'm aware of or believe in. If there is no death or pain [wounded], how do they make war and fight?

My hermeneutic view is all humans and spiritual beings were created with eternal souls / spirits and can not die in the spirit or soul. Having a finite mind and limited reasoning, how is spiritual war conducted, is there pain involved? We know the fate of the fallen angels and non-believers with separation, torment, gnashing of teeth, heat, thirst, etc. which indicates physical pain.

So, with the long way to my question presented: Does our Bible state anywhere there will be no physical pain in our glorified bodies? 

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

The context of the scripture reveals plainly whether it is an animal described or a title of the Lord. It is important for that title is used on different occasions for specific purposes.

Marilyn.

 

Shalom, Marilyn.

Titles MEAN SOMETHING! The word "Messiah," a transliteration of the Hebrew word "Mashiyach, also translated into Greek as "Christos," anglicized as "Christ," for instance, means "one who is anointed" or "one who is RUBBED with oil" as a sign of God's selection of that individual for a particular service: priest, prophet, or king.

The title, "Lamb of God," or "Keves Elohiym" in Hebrew, means the "YEARLING RAM of God." This is significant because the lamb had to be about one year old to be sacrificed as the Pesach ("Passover") Lamb for a family. It's not "just a title," but it's a DESCRIPTION of His destiny to die by crucifixion for the sins of His people!

Yes, from context you can tell whether it's an animal for that purpose or a title of the Master Yeshua` who was our ULTIMATE Sacrifice for sin, but that doesn't negate for what purpose that sacrifice was made! The animal sacrifices were a PICTURE of what Yeshua` would do for them LITERALLY during His First Advent. They were looking FORWARD to the Messiah's coming as the "Lamb," the ultimate Sacrifice made to seal PERMANENTLY the "passing over" of the Death Angel who took the lives of all firstborn sons and creatures in Egypt!

What good are the "pictures" without the object from which the picture was taken? It's really very simple: There's no difference between the children of Israel looking forward in time to the Messiah and we who now look backward in time to the Messiah. We are ALL justified by God in the same way: through grace, by blood, and by faith!

Paul EXTENSIVELY told us that no amount of sacrifice of animals would do. Instead, he told us that we had to have faith - TRUST - in God's ABILITY to do for us what we can't do for ourselves - to justify us - and in His WILLINGNESS to justify us - because He loves us unconditionally, just as Avraham had! HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that "OT saints" weren't justified by God the same as we!

What did David say?

Psalm 130:1-8 (KJV)

1 {A Song of degrees.}

Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.
2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
6 My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.
7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

What did Micah say?

Micah 6:7-8 (KJV)

7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil (sacrifices)? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul (like Samuel for his mother)?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but ...
(1) to do justly, and
(2) to love mercy, and
(3) to walk humbly with thy God?

Do you see anything in Micah's words about making sacrifices to appease God?

Paul was NOT wrong!

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi again Retro,

`I, Jesus......am the Root of David...`  (Rev. 22: 16)

Marilyn.

Shalom, again, sister Marilyn.

Yes, the Hebrew is "Shoresh David," which happens to be the name of a Messianic Jewish synagogue with which I'm familiar.

But, one should be aware of why He is known as the "Root of David." He used this information in an argument against the P'rushiym ("Pharisees" meaning "Separatists").

Matthew 22:41-46 (KJV)

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying,

"What think ye of Christ (the Messiah)? whose son is he?"

They say unto him, 

"The Son of David, (of course)."

43 He saith unto them,

"How then doth David in spirit call him 'Lord,' saying,

44 'The LORD (Hebrew: YHWH, God's name) said unto my Lord (Hebrew: adoniy = "my-Master," a reference to the Messiah), <<Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool>>'? (Psalm 110:1 itself referring back to Psalm 2:9)

45 If David then call him 'Lord' (Master, like master of the household, the father), how is he his son?"

46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

It's similar to how Yochanan the Immerser ("John the Baptist") reacted to the Messiah Yeshua`, his younger cousin by six months:

John 1:19-34 (KJV)

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him,

"Who art thou?"

20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed,

"I am not the Christ (not the Messiah)."

21 And they asked him,

"What then? Art thou Elias (Hebrew: Eliyahu = English: Elijah)?"

And he saith,

"I am not."

"Art thou 'that prophet' (that Moses talked about in Deuteronomy 18:15-19)?"

And he answered,

"No."

22 Then said they unto him,

"Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?"

23 He said,

"I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as said the prophet Esaias (Hebrew: Yeeshayahuw = English: Isaiah, Isaiah 40:3)."

24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him,

"Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ (that Messiah), nor Elias (Elijah), neither that prophet (that the LORD promised in Deut. 18:19)?"

26 John answered them, saying,

"I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose."

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me cometh a man which is preferred before me': for he WAS before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."

32 And John bare record, saying,

"I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, 'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.' 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

[Heleadethme]

Of COURSE the believing church is the bride of Christ....who else could be?.....unbelieving Israel can in no way be construed to be the Bride of Christ.  And scripture even says if ye have not the Son, ye have not the Father either.  There are so many scriptures being misconstrued around this, due to overthinking.  No one, not even Israel, is going to be the bride of Christ without the Bridegroom, that would be an oxymoron.  It's the gospel that is even to the Jew first, it was preached to Israel first.  And this is the exact same gospel that is to the Jew first by which Gentiles also come to the Saviour and Bridegroom.  There is no coming to Him any other way.  John the Baptist was friend of who....the Bridegroom.  Preparing the way for the Lord....not to the Jew only but to the Gentiles as well.  I believe and hope that thankfully Israel will repent and come to Christ in the end...and then she gets grafted back into the olive tree again, along with the remnant of believing Gentiles....all part of the Bride of Christ TOGETHER. 

Lots to happen before that day though, and unbelieving Israel is still an enemy as concerns the gospel, though she is loved for the sake of the patriarchs.  We need to be prepared to love our enemies then, in the days that are coming.  Son according to the flesh still persecutes the son according to promise.  Antichrist sitting in the Temple in Jerusalem as though he is God....be awake and aware....selah.

[Retrobyter]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:24 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Well now that that's all cleared up  

As you can tell, I'm not a Hebrew / Greek word scholar, just a regular ole 'looker upper' in Strong's and Zodhiates word studies. You basically confirmed my findings and the point I just discovered about the word 'pain'. Reading this verse [Rev. 21:4], my mind always associated it with no more pain such as in; a painful cut or bruise, broken bone, aching and sore muscles, etc. I now relate it to the pain of work and toil; and not so much as physical pain. So by that; I'm assuming tending, working and producing will be a pleasure and a privilege, rather than by the sweat of the brow, toil, hardship and the curse removed.

Therefore; that leads me to another question from my overactive pondering s. Other than Revelation 21:4, I remember nowhere else in scripture where physical pain is addressed in eternity. To be more specific; there is war going on in the Heaven's between Satan and his minions and God's Heavenly Host, spiritual beings [with Heavenly bodies]. During these battles and wars we see God's Angels can at least be delayed and they fight. No mention of annihilation is ever made in the Bible pertaining to beings that I'm aware of or believe in. If there is no death or pain [wounded], how do they make war and fight?

My hermeneutic view is all humans and spiritual beings were created with eternal souls / spirits and can not die in the spirit or soul. Having a finite mind and limited reasoning, how is spiritual war conducted, is there pain involved? We know the fate of the fallen angels and non-believers with separation, torment, gnashing of teeth, heat, thirst, etc. which indicates physical pain.

So, with the long way to my question presented: Does our Bible state anywhere there will be no physical pain in our glorified bodies? 

Shalom, Dennis!

Oho! Sounds like there's an "alterior motive" in the asking of your questions. (I like it!)

Actually, real "pain" was invented by God in us as human bodies as a WARNING SIGN that something is physically wrong! It's not evil in itself; as a matter of fact, although we're not told this, Adam and Eve were probably created with pain receptors in their COMPLETE nervous system! It's a POSITIVE feedback to make us jerk away or otherwise protect ourselves from physical harm. Thinking that "pain" is a liability is probably why the Greeks thought that the physical world was incompatible with the spiritual, and their thinking was passed on to us through men like Philo, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.

I STRONGLY urge people to get a copy of Randy Alcorn's book Heaven and Read Appendix A: "Christoplatonism's False Assumptions." (And, no, I don't get any kickbacks from the endorsement.) He and I don't see eye-to-eye on his interpretation of "heaven," but I believe he has hit the nail on the head when it comes to this appendix. The book is worth buying for this appendix alone (IMO)!

Here's two important paragraphs from that appendix:

Quote

 

But according to Scripture, our bodies aren’t just shells for our spirits to inhabit; they’re a good and essential aspect of our being. Likewise, the earth is not a second-rate location from which we must be delivered. Rather, it was handmade by God for us. Earth, not some incorporeal state, is God’s choice as mankind’s original and ultimate dwelling place.

Alcorn, Randy. Heaven (Alcorn, Randy) (p. 459). Tyndale House Publishers. Kindle Edition. 

 

Quote

 

Because of Christoplatonism’s pervasive influence, we resist the biblical picture of bodily resurrection of the dead and life on the New Earth; of eating and drinking in Heaven; of walking and talking, living in dwelling places, traveling down streets, and going through gates from one place to another; and of ruling, working, playing, and engaging in earthly culture.

Alcorn, Randy. Heaven (Alcorn, Randy) (p. 460). Tyndale House Publishers. Kindle Edition. 

 

"Christoplatonism" is a word he has coined to speak of the Platonic influence within Christianity, introduced long, long ago. Randy Alcorn notes that Philo lived from 20 B.C. to A.D. 50, Clement of Alexandria lived from 150 to 215 A.D., and Origen lived from 185 to 254 A.D. These men, using the "new" (at their time) allegorical method of interpretation, made this Platonism compatible with Christianity (and Judaism).

Mr. Alcorn also said,

Quote

 

"The predominant belief that the ultimate Heaven God prepares for us will be unearthly could not be more unbiblical. Earth was made for people to live on, and people were made to live on Earth."

Alcorn, Randy. Heaven (Alcorn, Randy) (p. 91). Tyndale House Publishers. Kindle Edition. 

 

Now, you said, "My hermeneutic view is all humans and spiritual beings were created with eternal souls / spirits and can not die in the spirit or soul." My hermeneutic view is that humans were created as "souls," that is, air-breathing bodies. We breathe air in and out, and sometimes blow like "spirits," that is, winds. As such, the word "spirit" also refers to a person's breath, and when a person dies, he "gives up the spirit/ghost," that is, he gives up his breath and ceases to breathe.

All one has to do is pay attention to Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew is ...

B'reeshiyt 2:7 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

7 Vayitser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayyipah b'apaayow nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah:

7 Vayitser = 7 And-made
YHWH = YHWH, God's name
Elohiym = God
et = (the direct object follows)
haa'aadaam = the-red-(man)
`aafaar = (from)-dust
min = from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-(ground)
vayyipah = and-breathed
b'apaayow = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-living-(creatures)
vayhiy = and-became
haa'aadaam = the-red-(man)
l-nefesh = to-a-breather 
chayyaah: = living:

7 And made YHWH God the red man from dust from the red ground and breathed in his nostrils a puff of living creatures and became the red man to a living breather.

Basically, this was the very first instance of CPR, cardio-pulmonary resuscitation, although technically the man was not breathing before this puff of living creatures was breathed into his nostrils.

If you like to look things up in Strong's, look up OT5315 and its origin, OT5314.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Retrobyter
made the correction without deleting the error