The War With Satan

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I would like to see some scriptural justification for believing this.   Cause this is not what I find.  E.g.,

Verse list:    
Rev 21:2-3 KJV    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of HEAVEN, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of HEAVEN saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Is this the same heaven as this: 

Rev 12:4 KJV And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

It's the same Greek word,  ouranos.  It appears that you are you using an otherwise unsubstantiated (by the scriptures)  doctrinal position to interpret what a particular scripture means.   Please provide a basis for this belief about how heaven is defined. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Matthew Henry: Commentary on 2 Cor 12: 1-10

The Apostle's Rapture. (a. d. 57.)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.   2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.   3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)   4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.   5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.   6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.   7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.   8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.   9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.   10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Here we may observe,

I. The narrative the apostle gives of the favours God had shown him, and the honour he had done him; for doubtless he himself is the man in Christ of whom he speaks. Concerning this we may take notice, 1. Of the honour itself which was done to the apostle: he was caught up into the third heaven, v. 2. When this was we cannot say, whether it was during those three days that he lay without sight at his conversion or at some other time afterwards, much less can we pretend to say how this was, whether by a separation of his soul from his body or by an extraordinary transport in the depth of contemplation. It would be presumption for us to determine, if not also to enquire into, this matter, seeing the apostle himself says, Whether in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell. It was certainly a very extraordinary honour done him: in some sense he was caught up into the third heaven, the heaven of the blessed, above the aërial heaven, in which the fowls fly, above the starry heaven, which is adorned with those glorious orbs: it was into the third heaven, where God most eminently manifests his glory. We are not capable of knowing all, nor is it fit we should know very much, of the particulars of that glorious place and state; it is our duty and interest to give diligence to make sure to ourselves a mansion there; and, if that be cleared up to us, then we should long to be removed thither, to abide there for ever. This third heaven is called paradise (v. 4), in allusion to the earthly paradise out of which Adam was driven for his transgression; it is called the paradise of God (Rev. ii. 7), signifying to us that by Christ we are restored to all the joys and honours we lost by sin, yea, to much better. The apostle does not mention what he saw in the third heaven or paradise, but tells us that he heard unspeakable words, such as it is not possible for a man to utter—such are the sublimity of the matter and our unacquaintedness with the language of the upper world: nor was it lawful to utter those words, because, while we are here in this world, we have a more sure word of prophecy than such visions and revelations. 2 Pet. i. 19. We read of the tongue of angels as well as men, and Paul knew as much of that as ever any man upon earth did, and yet preferred charity, that is, the sincere love of God and our neighbour. This account which the apostle gives us of his vision should check our curious desires after forbidden knowledge, and teach us to improve the revelation God has given us in his word. Paul himself, who had been in the third heaven, did not publish to the world what he had heard there, but adhered to the doctrine of Christ: on this foundation the church is built, and on this we must build our faith and hope. 2. The modest and humble manner in which the apostle mentions this matter is observable. One would be apt to think that one who had had such visions and revelations as these would have boasted greatly of them; but, says he, It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory, v. 1. He therefore did not mention this immediately, nor till above fourteen years after, v. 2. And then it is not without some reluctancy, as a thing which in a manner he was forced to by the necessity of the case. Again, he speaks of himself in the third person, and does not say, I am the man who was thus honoured above other men. Again, his humility appears by the check he seems to put upon himself (v. 6), which plainly shows that he delighted not to dwell upon this theme. Thus was he, who was not behind the chief of the apostles in dignity, very eminent for his humility. Note, It is an excellent thing to have a lowly spirit in the midst of high advancements; and those who abase themselves shall be exalted.

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Michael will remove Satan from heaven, in preparation for the church.

I think you should research the three heavens. There are many sites that explore Paul's account. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Michael37]

3 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

You put forth the (scriptural) notion that "Satan does not inhabit the heaven that is the final home of the saints..."  So now you want me to hearken to the teachings of men, over the scriptures? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

We are permitted to exhort and edify one another. Notice the plurality of heavens from the beginning of the Bible. You put forth your own theories about the elect angels so back at you.

Gen 1:1
(1)  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
 

[Resurrection Priest]

You believe Satan will be "cast out" from the spiritual realm/dimension (heaven) to the physical realm (earth)?  Is that right?

[Resurrection Priest]

Personally - I don't see how anyone or anything will survive (for very long) after the 7 last plagues.  

The vegetation is burned up.  (That's 25% of our oxygen.) So no food. 

Everything in the sea dies. (The algae is 75% of our oxygen.)  So no "food chain". 

All the water is deadly. 

Without food, air or water - how will life survive? 

I'm not a believer in a "rapture" event followed by 7 years during which Jews get another chance to get it right. 

Two Greek words - parousia (#3952)  and apokalupsis (#601)
        BOTH are translated into the English KJV, as “coming.”

    parousia:  Those who teach a “secret rapture” say that the “parousia”
                will be the secret coming - in presence only.

        The Greek word “parousia” is translated as: “coming” - 22 times, and “presence” - 2 times.      
    apokalupsis:  Those who believe in a “secret rapture” say that “apokalupsis”
                refers to the visible, glorious, coming - in power.

        To study the use of these words for yourself, go to a Bible concordance.  
    Notice carefully the use of these words, “parousia” and “apokalupsis” in context.

2 Peter 3:12 “looking for and hastening the coming (parousia) of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat.”

Doesn't sound very secret.  Also doesn't sound survive-able.  Unless of course, one is removed from this planet by Christ.  Even "the heavens" (plural) are dissolved. 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Resurrection Priest

[Michael37]

23 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

You believe Satan will be "cast out" from the spiritual realm/dimension (heaven) to the physical realm (earth)?  Is that right?

I believe the simple gist of the metaphorical display in Rev 12  is that the conflict between the Will of God and the will of Satan intensifies to the point where Satan's activity is confined to earth, rather than having access to the celestial heaven as prior to being cast down. One school of thought is that this in fact has happened already as a result of Christ's ascension which gives rise to the proclamation of verse 10 below. 

Rev 12:7-10
(7)  And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
(8)  but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
(9)  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10)  Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

[Michael37]

18 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Also doesn't sound survive-able.  Unless of course, one is removed from this planet by Christ.  Even "the heavens" (plural) are dissolved. 

Rev 9:6
(6)  In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
 

[Justin Adams]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Yes, agreed. this happened during Yeshua's earthly time. 'I saw hasatan fall..'

This is NOT what some say what happened in the beginning. The so-called 1/3 rd of the angels, etc. No verse supports this pre-Adamic idea suggested by some.

In Gen 3 his indictment is stated. And now, after Yeshua started casing out demons, hasatan has become the king of Hades/the underworld etc. Ruler of the cosmic nether-world. Cosmic and physical often get confused, so these allegorical passages are not well understood.

Allegory is even more real that our reality. Sometimes the only way to explain a cosmic situation is by apocalyptic and allegorical expression. We must remember that the spiritual is far more real than our physical because the physical is 'inside' or contained BY the spiritual realities.

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Allegory is even more real that our reality. Sometimes the only way to explain a cosmic situation is by apocalyptic and allegorical expression. We must remember that the spiritual is far more real than our physical because the physical is 'inside' or contained BY the spiritual realities.

Agree.  And it's an especially important truth for those who study prophecy.  God reveals the things to come from a perspective that sees the spiritual and the natural with equal clarity.  If we're to understand it, we need to discern which is which.

• For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.  2 Corinthians 4:18

[Resurrection Priest]

Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev 12:3 NAS)

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death. 12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." (NAS)

The timing for the fulfillment of this passage is not immediately apparent. 

The words "thrown down" and "thrown down to the earth", can mean simply defeated OR can indicate the accuser was literally driven out from the heavenly realm.  The words "no longer a place found for them in heaven" suggest the later. 

Christ "defeated" Satan when He "was obedient unto death".  He fulfilled every condition of every covenant, and can therefore claim the promises of those covenants - dominion over the earth (which includes every human on the earth). 

AFTER the "accuser"- devil - dragon is "thrown down", he apparently continues to accuse the brethren.  The brethren overcome these accusations "by the blood of the Lamb" and "by the word of their testimony" and also by the complete devotion of their lives ("unto death"). 

Verses 13-17 describe the dragon persecuting "the woman who gave birth to the male Child" (Judah or what remained of Israel) and persecuting "the rest of her offspring" (described as those "who keep the commandments of God" AND "have the testimony of Jesus Christ.")

It would appear the dragon was "cast out" of the heavenly realm AFTER the "male child" of verse 5 was "caught up to God and to His throne." 

I personally believe the murder of the Son of God, destroyed any remaining regard for the claims of Satan in the Heavenly realm.  2/3rds of angelic beings were allied against the claims of Satan.

One thing I find interesting is in verse 4.  The tail of the dragon swept 1/3 of the stars (angels) of heaven and "threw them to the earth".   The war against God was moved from the Heavenly realm, to center on things taking place on this earth.  This happened BEFORE the "male child" was born, and BEFORE the "war in Heaven" between Michael and the dragon, that finally cast the dragon himself out from the heavenly realm.  

This leads me to speculate this (the dragon moving his forces to the earth) might have happened because the LORD had created a new race of beings - humans.  

In the story of Job, Satan is still able to come into a heavenly council meeting, to accuse Job (of serving for selfish reasons) and the LORD (for artificially protecting Job).  He has not yet been cast out from the heavenly realm.