CONDEMNED because of breaking the TEN Commandments!!! Seriously?

[bvthomas]

8 hours ago, appy said:

CONDEMNED because of breaking the TEN Commandments!!! Seriously?

 

 

I am just commenting on the title of thread and the quoted part above.  Paul's primary audience in the book of roman's was primarily gentiles, but there was also Jews in Rome as well.  The first 5 chapters of the book of Roman's teaches that God has instilled the knowledge of himself, sin and the coming judgement into the hearts of ALL mankind. From Adam till today, so that none are without excuse.  People will not be held accountable for what they do not know, but for what has been revealed to them.  Not only did God hardwire all mankind with the knowledge of himself, but also the knowledge of right and wrong. The Jews who tried so hard to get right with God by following Moses laws had failed in keeping those laws , for it isn't possible for human's to keep God's laws perfectly. The Jews, who knew of God's written laws had shown that they were no different than the gentiles, in that all have sinned.  And is the reason Jesus came and died for all humans.

It is not possible to share the gospel with the unbelieving without also telling them why they are in need of a savior.  Unbelievers think of themselves as basically good people, but the bible tells us that ALL mankind has sinned.

Roman's 5 : 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Romans 2 : 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Roman's 1 : 5 – 7  Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.  And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:

Roman's 1: 18 – 21 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,  since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.  For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans 1: 28 – 32  Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.  They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,  slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;  they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.  Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2: 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Roman's 3 : 22 – 23   There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 

 

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans 1:18,19

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21)

 

It is evident that these verses are talking about the people of Israel - who hold the truth in unrighteousness! Israel held the truth, but in unrighteousness. Israel forsook their Lord God, the fountain of living waters; Israel forsook their God and denied the Holy One and the Just (Acts 3:14), whom God hath sent. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets (1 Thessalonians 2:15)(Romans 11:3). That is why the Baptism of repentance (of John) was only preached to Israel - Repentance = to return to their God.

 

The unbelieving world  (the Gentile world) - whom God drove out before the face of fathers (the Patriarchs), unto the days of David (Acts 7:45) - were in darkness. Darkness = Choshek (Ignorance), which means lack of knowledge of God. This knowledge comes only when we come to Christ. God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 4:6)

 

Hebrew word for darkness is – Choshek = IGNORANCE (Brown Driver-Briggs)(= absence of the knowledge of God/and His ways, the eyes of their understanding being darkened – Eph 1:18/ 4:17,18/Heb 6:4/2Pet 1:2,3/Job 21:14/33:30/Hosea 4:6/6:6/Pro 2:5)(them that walk in (the ways of) darkness (contrary to the paths of uprightness - Pro 2:13) are considered fools – Eccl 2:14 – he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth - John 12:35 – for they are ignorant of the existance of God – Psalm 14:1) – its effect: Walking in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them (ergo the wrath of God abides on them – Col 3:6/Rom 2:5/John 3:36), because of the blindness of their heart – 2Cor 4:4/Eph 4:18/Acts 17:30/1Pet 1:14)(the antonym of darkness is light - the Hebrew word for knowledge is “light” and only the knowledge of the glorious gospel of Christ can release a person from the grip/power of the prince of ignorance – 2Cor 4:4/Acts 26:18/Col 1:13/Rev 16:10 - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ - 2 Cor 4:6) - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace -1Cor 14:33 – Human-beings are born ignorant due to the original sin; but God is light (In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge - Col 2:2,3), and in him is no darkness at all -1John 1:5 - and when we repent and turn to God – Acts 17:30 – darkness (ignorance) becomes past, and the true light will begin to shine -1John 2:8 – the eyes of your understanding gets enlightened – Eph 1:18 - only if you will let the day star, which is Christ, arise in your hearts (by faith) - 2Pet 1:19 – for Christ the light of men shines in darkness; but darkness (ignorance) comprehends it not – John 1:4,5 – He is the true Light, which lights every man that cometh into the world - John 1:9).

Darkness also means, without order, chaos - the earth was without form or void - without the knowledge of God, which is light - when God said let there be light - the chaotic condition or everything falls into order. This is exactly what happens to a soul also - when the light shines in the heart all the chaos or disorder leaves. 

 

So, one cannot retain the knowledge of God without his or her spirit being revived by the Spirit of God. The commandments are spiritual in nature and it is solely for the spirit man. What good is a spiritual law to a person who abides in darkness (ignorance)?  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by bvthomas

[The_Patriot21]

Well, you quoted the scripture that says the law defines what sin is, and the 10 commandments are part of the law, in fact they're the basis of the law, we are condemned by the 10 commandments...just saying. Thank goodness we're saved by grace.

[Neighbor]

All are condemned from the beginning by God's wrath against His creation. All long before the ten commandments given  in the covenant with Moses.

[LadyKay]

On 1/13/2020 at 10:02 AM, bvthomas said:

Lately, I heard a preacher asking an unbeliever; Have you ever broken any of God’s laws? 

Did anyone read my post explaining things? 

[bvthomas]

On 1/14/2020 at 1:11 AM, LadyKay said:

I didn't read through everything but from what I picked up, I think the point of asking a non-Christian if they have ever broken one of the ten commandments is to make the point that all have sin and need Jesus's forgiveness. In other words. We don't make it just by being a good person. Because no one is good meaning that we all have sin at some point in our lives. But ask people who are not Christians how do you get to heaven and they will answer by being good. So I think that was the point that was being made by asking if they have ever broken a commandment. To show that really, no one is good or good enough to go to heaven. But we get there by accepting Jesus and his grace. 

 

This way of preaching may be alright in the Western Countries; but when it comes to any Asian countries where they worship idols, it's something else. In India the Hindu's worship 330 millions or more gods and they have their Vedas and other books which they ardently practice and follow. Try to approach such a sect with the 10 commandment, and then you will know what I am talking about. Jesus would never approach like that, neither the Apostles of the Lamb! I cannot even ask them how do you get to heaven? Because they believe in reincarnation and not in heaven or hell. They don’t believe in one true God. When I check the New Testament I don’t see one time anyone preaching the gospel in like manner. This method we could approach anyone who is already familiar with our God and Jesus Christ. But my personal understanding is that, it isn’t the best Biblical way.

[LadyKay]

7 hours ago, bvthomas said:

This way of preaching may be alright in the Western Countries; but when it comes to any Asian countries where they worship idols, it's something else. In India the Hindu's worship 330 millions or more gods and they have their Vedas and other books which they ardently practice and follow. Try to approach such a sect with the 10 commandment, and then you will know what I am talking about. Jesus would never approach like that, neither the Apostles of the Lamb! I cannot even ask them how do you get to heaven? Because they believe in reincarnation and not in heaven or hell. They don’t believe in one true God. When I check the New Testament I don’t see one time anyone preaching the gospel in like manner. This method we could approach anyone who is already familiar with our God and Jesus Christ. But my personal understanding is that, it isn’t the best Biblical way.

I was simply explaining the reason behind it. I do not know if it is effective or not since it is not the approach I would take.  

[BibleStudent100]

When participating in the dispersion of the gospel message, one has to first determine the background of the recipient of the message.  The Apostle Paul understood this basic concept: “To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. ²¹ To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. ²² To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. ²³ But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others (1 Corinthians 9:20-23). 

Thus, if a potential sheep has a background in the Bible or was raised in a church, then one can start at a level that assumes one already believes in God and Jesus and accepts the veracity of the Bible.  But if one is speaking to individuals who have no Christian background, such as our friends in Asia, then one has to start at a much more basic level.  Of course, here in the Western lands, we have many people who have zero background in the Scriptures and so when I talk with such individuals, I highlight the Bible’s practical advice about how to maintain tighter family relationships and how to maintain loving marriages, etc., which is a way to present the glorious good news of the Bible to others.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

When the Gentiles. which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness. Romans 2:14-15

So the Gentiles, while not having the written law, certainly can still have the law in their hearts.

He that loves has fulfilled the law. For this; thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other command, it is briefly summarized in this statement, namely; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Romans 13:8-9

[bvthomas]

13 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

When the Gentiles. which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness. Romans 2:14-15

So the Gentiles, while not having the written law, certainly can still have the law in their hearts.

He that loves has fulfilled the law. For this; thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other command, it is briefly summarized in this statement, namely; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Romans 13:8-9

 

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law (Romans 2:14) - This verse is talking about the Gentile believers, not the heathen. The new Covenant written in their hearts - Heb 8:10/10:16

The conscience of the heathen or the unbelieving world is defiled. Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled (Titus 1:15). But we serve God with a pure conscience  - 2Tim 1:3 (our conscience got purged - Heb 10:2 - perfected the conscience - Heb 9:9 - baptized to walk in newness of life - Rom 6:4 - which is the answer of a good conscience toward God - 1Pet 3:21 - our heart is sprinkled from an evil conscience - Heb 10:22). 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

9 minutes ago, bvthomas said:

 

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law (Romans 2:14) - This verse is talking about the Gentile believers, not the heathen. The new Covenant written in their hearts - Heb 8:10/10:16

The conscience of the heathen or the unbelieving world is defiled. Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled (Titus 1:15). But we serve God with a pure conscience  - 2Tim 1:3 (our conscience got purged - Heb 10:2 - perfected the conscience - Heb 9:9 - baptized to walk in newness of life - Rom 6:4 - which is the answer of a good conscience toward God - 1Pet 3:21 - our heart is sprinkled from an evil conscience - Heb 10:22). 

The context of Romans 1:18-32 makes clear that Paul indeed is referring to the Gentile world at large.

Believers have the law, the old law is to love your neighbor; Leviticus 19:17-18, the literal summation of the old law is such; Deuteronomy 10:19, which is specifically what Christ and Paul preached; Matthew 7:12, Romans 13:8-9.

That also makes clear that since Paul says "which have not the law" he is clearly talking about, lawless, people, as he spelled out in detail in the words before those. A couple very important things must always be considered when reading Paul.

1. He liked to talk a lot, the Bible makes note of it; Acts 20:9.

2. The chapter and verse numbers were not included by Paul, they were added centuries later, originally it is one continuous letter.

3. Peter specifically, the Holy Spirit through Peter, specifically said that some of the things Paul said are hard to understand. 2 Peter 3:15-16.

And Paul himself writes at the end of Romans that his writing is bold and for the purpose of the Sanctification of the Gentiles.

Romans 15:16-18

Therefore Romans should not be understood as an introduction to the "gospel" the introduction to the good news is what Christ preached, Matthew 5 through 7, Luke 6:27-49, and the end of the matter, for believers, should also be what Christ preached; Rev. chapters 1 - 3.