Everything has been pre-determined

[alaric_w]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

In 2 Peter 3:9, it is concerning the second coming of the Lord. Many people interpret it as the Lord is delaying his coming in order to allow sinners to come to repentance. However this interpretation does not make sense because babies are born and many reached the age of accountability every day. If the Lord comes at any day and time, there will still be people who has not come to repentance. And if the Lord want to give everyone a chance to repent, then his second coming will be delay indefinitely.

Sons of light and Sons of darkness

When God created Adam and Eve, there is no sin. If Adam and Eve did not sin, every child that come from them will also be the Sons of light. I believe that God already decided the number of offspring that will come forth. But when sin comes into the picture, the Sons of darkness are added into their offspring giving great increase in number of offspring.

God depicts yeast as a representation of sin and evil.

Galatians 5:9 (New Living Translation) This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough!

When yeast work through the unleavened dough, it rises and increase in size. Which gives us a picture of increase.

Galatians 5:9 (Good News Translation) "It takes only a little yeast to make the whole batch of dough rise," as they say.

Another clue comes from the Parable of the Weeds. The Sons of light are depicts as wheats and the Sons of darkness are weeds. From this parable, there is an unwanted increase due to the weeds sow by the enemy.

Matthew 13:24-26 The Parable of the Weeds - Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

God knows who are the Sons of light and Sons of darkness

John 8:42-47 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Characteristics of the Sons of light

1)    They will follow God when they hear his voice.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

2)    A Son of light can bring forth a Son of darkness and Son of light. Under the linage of Abraham, there are Sons of light and Sons of darkness.

John 8:39-41 “Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

3)    Anyone who is alive can turn out to be a Son of light even just before death. The robber who is crucified with Jesus was saved before dying.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Conclusion

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God did not decide our destiny. It is our choice to choose or reject Jesus that determines our destiny. God only see the future and knows who are the Sons of light and Sons of darkness. The future that God predict does not change. In this sense, everything is already fixed from the beginning.

Every generation, there are Sons of light and Sons of darkness being born. God is waiting patiently every single Son of light to be born, come to repentance and be saved. His salvation for the Sons of light is total and not a single one will be lost. Jesus will appear swiftly once this is fulfilled.

[Yeshua153]

1 hour ago, alaric_w said:

 

Conclusion

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God did not decide our destiny. It is our choice to choose or reject Jesus that determines our destiny. God only see the future and knows who are the Sons of light and Sons of darkness. The future that God predict does not change. In this sense, everything is already fixed from the beginning.

Every generation, there are Sons of light and Sons of darkness being born. God is waiting patiently every single Son of light to be born, come to repentance and be saved. His salvation for the Sons of light is total and not a single one will be lost. Jesus will appear swiftly once this is fulfilled.

You were doing OK, until you got to your conclusion, I prefer NKJV version,  The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

You are reading 'not wanting anyone to perish' thinking you have the choice, & your forgetting Paul is speaking to the church believers, not the world, so God is long-suffering toward us (His elect), not willing that any (of us, His elect) should perish, but that all (His elect) should come. Similarly in Jn3v16 is the same. All is not everyone or anyone. Jn 15v16 Yeshua's own words say  You did not choose Me, but I chose you.

God does decide our destiny, & predestined His elect to come to His Truth, over a lifetime of learning, or near the end, if it has taken some longer to be shown. There is no freewill to choose, only self-will that opposes God, being our sinful nature.

[johnthebaptist]

17 hours ago, alaric_w said:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

In 2 Peter 3:9, it is concerning the second coming of the Lord. Many people interpret it as the Lord is delaying his coming in order to allow sinners to come to repentance. However this interpretation does not make sense because babies are born and many reached the age of accountability every day. If the Lord comes at any day and time, there will still be people who has not come to repentance. And if the Lord want to give everyone a chance to repent, then his second coming will be delay indefinitely.

Sons of light and Sons of darkness

When God created Adam and Eve, there is no sin. If Adam and Eve did not sin, every child that come from them will also be the Sons of light. I believe that God already decided the number of offspring that will come forth. But when sin comes into the picture, the Sons of darkness are added into their offspring giving great increase in number of offspring.

God depicts yeast as a representation of sin and evil.

Galatians 5:9 (New Living Translation) This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough!

When yeast work through the unleavened dough, it rises and increase in size. Which gives us a picture of increase.

Galatians 5:9 (Good News Translation) "It takes only a little yeast to make the whole batch of dough rise," as they say.

Another clue comes from the Parable of the Weeds. The Sons of light are depicts as wheats and the Sons of darkness are weeds. From this parable, there is an unwanted increase due to the weeds sow by the enemy.

Matthew 13:24-26 The Parable of the Weeds - Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

God knows who are the Sons of light and Sons of darkness

John 8:42-47 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Characteristics of the Sons of light

1)    They will follow God when they hear his voice.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

2)    A Son of light can bring forth a Son of darkness and Son of light. Under the linage of Abraham, there are Sons of light and Sons of darkness.

John 8:39-41 “Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

3)    Anyone who is alive can turn out to be a Son of light even just before death. The robber who is crucified with Jesus was saved before dying.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Conclusion

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God did not decide our destiny. It is our choice to choose or reject Jesus that determines our destiny. God only see the future and knows who are the Sons of light and Sons of darkness. The future that God predict does not change. In this sense, everything is already fixed from the beginning.

Every generation, there are Sons of light and Sons of darkness being born. God is waiting patiently every single Son of light to be born, come to repentance and be saved. His salvation for the Sons of light is total and not a single one will be lost. Jesus will appear swiftly once this is fulfilled.

I think God is a good predictor of what is going to happen, but we still have the freedom of choice, and the Lord has to wait and see what we choose to do before he can react.

[Alive]

Hmmmmm?

I think two things are true of God Almighty.

He exists outside of time, as He created the construct and He is absolutely sovereign.

How He manages everything, is His business and beyond us.

Is. 46:8    “^aRemember this, and be ¹assured;

^bRecall it to ²mind, you ^ctransgressors.

⁹  “Remember the ^aformer things long past,

For I am God, and there is ^bno other;

I am God, and there is ^cno one like Me,

¹⁰  Declaring the end from the beginning,

And from ancient times things which have not been done,

Saying, ‘^aMy purpose will be established,

And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

¹¹  Calling a ^abird of prey from the ^beast,

The man of ¹My purpose from a far country.

Truly I have ^cspoken; truly I will bring it to pass.

I have planned it, surely I will do it.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Alive

[Yeshua153]

4 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

I think God is a good predictor of what is going to happen, but we still have the freedom of choice, and the Lord has to wait and see what we choose to do before he can react.

So you think God is waiting to react to what we choose to do, as if we are in charge! That sounds like the worldly freewill, that does not exist  in the bible, as  freewill is only in the old testament, as vowed or voluntary offerings in the temple. Your choice is self-will, which everybody does, as it is in our nature to sin, & if God chooses us, then He will conform us, over our lifetime, to the likeness of Christ.

[johnthebaptist]

2 minutes ago, Yeshua153 said:

So you think God is waiting to react to what we choose to do, as if we are in charge! That sounds like the worldly freewill, that does not exist  in the bible, as  freewill is only in the old testament, as vowed or voluntary offerings in the temple. Your choice is self-will, which everybody does, as it is in our nature to sin, & if God chooses us, then He will conform us, over our lifetime, to the likeness of Christ.

Are you saying God plays favorites? He judges us fairly.

 

[Yeshua153]

Yes, it is by His grace (unmerited favour) & mercy, that He chooses one over another, not by what we do, or look like, for we all sin, & none of us deserve His mercy, but that is up to God. As far as judging us fairly, that sounds like you are saying depending on how we behave, will He then choose fairly, no, we are not in on how He originally chose His elect, before any were born.

[Neighbor]

On 1/14/2020 at 11:31 PM, johnthebaptist said:

Are you saying God plays favorites? He judges us fairly.

 

Hi,

Fairly? Hopefully not, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

It is only by God's mercy and grace that any are saved out from His wrath against his creation. He creates what he will create for the purpose He has made  each.

He has given His son, our Lord, those that will be saved and His Son loses not a one of them. Each that are to be saved have been foreknown and predestined by God from before the beginning.

[Justin Adams]

Here we go again. To answer the OP. Predestination doctrine(s) have way too many holes to be believed completely.

Sure, as goldfish in the bowl looking out we do have certain restricted choices. It boils down to the idea that Yahweh predetermined everything. The Tanakh does not bear this out and the apostles, sent to elaborate and explain the Tanakh, do not bear this out either.

If we are goldfish in the bowl, we still have freedom within certain constraints. Constraints decided by Yeshua that would be sufficient to allow us to choose Him or not. Simple, uncomplicated and rational.

It is only theologians and self-styled prophets that muddy the waters..

Edited January 16, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Yeshua153]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Here we go again. To answer the OP. Predestination doctrine(s) have way too many holes to be believed completely.

Sure, as goldfish in the bowl looking out we do have certain restricted choices. It boils down to the idea that Yahweh predetermined everything. 

Yes, here we go again, only because 'freewillers' don't want to think they haven't got any, from defining the words, but that is too much to contemplate, so it is just dismissed. 

So for the umpteenth time, I will carefully spell out again the meanings of freewill & predestination. Starting with freewill that is in the bible, that is only in the old testament, & means vowed or voluntary offerings given in the temple. Self-will is what everyone has, & is in Gen49v6, Titus1v7 & 2Pet2v10. What is interesting is in the write up Strong's number 829 of self-will. " Authhades means self-pleasing & denotes one who, dominated by self-interest, & inconsiderate of others, arrogantly asserts his own will. He asserts his own rights, regardless of others. With no motive at  all he is quick  to act contrary to the feelings of others." Unfortunately, I see that a lot on this, & other forums.

Now to define the opposite of the world's take on freewill, which is predestination. Pro'orizo is pro-pre (beforehand), & 'orizo, where we get horizon from. Strong's number 4309 meaning to limit in advance, & to mark out beforehand, & comes from Strong's 3724, to mark out or bound. If you can see the horizon, you are in the light, of God's boundary, if your in darkness, you cannot see the horizon, so predestination is only for the believers, who are in the light of His truth, chosen by God's grace & mercy.

There will still be folks who just don't want to accept the definitions, well that's life!