Trinity

[Réjean]

I'm asking you, do you believe that Jesus and all the apostles including Paul, believed in the trinity as formulated in 381 AD (by man not all of the same opinion), which became the new Doctrine of the Catholic church more then 300 years after Jesus went to sit next to God, his father in heaven?

After reading my bibles (French and English in many bias and non bias translations) I found the real truth! I had to unlearn what I was told by the Catholic church first, and then as a protestant trinitarian again.

Now my brother, tel me, do you believe that Doctrine 3 in 1 / 1 in 3 (incompressible) as being the word of God, really?

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Réjean
Misunderstanding of what I was trying to say.

[George]

Shalom Réjean,

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[steve morrow]

THE HOLY SPIRIT --- not your own spirit / GODS  WORDS --- not mans words

 

JOHN 3:34  for HE whom GOD hath sent speaketh the words of GOD for GOD giveth not the spirit by measure unto him  --3:35-- THE FATHER loveth THE SON and hath given --ALL  THINGS  INTO  HIS  HAND--

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that --I SPEAK--unto you they are spirit and they are life 

REVELATION 19:13  and HE was clothed with a vesture of blood and HIS name is called --THE  WORD  OF  GOD--

1 CORINTHIANS 8:5  for though there be that are called gods whether in heaven or in earth as there be gods many and lords many --8:6-- but to us there is but --ONE  GOD  THE  FATHER--of whom are all things and we in  HIM  and --ONE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST--by whom are all things and we by HIM 

--8:7-- howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge -- for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol and their conscience being weak is defiled 

ROMANS 8:11  but if the spirit of HIM that raised up JESUS from the dead dwell in you HE that raised up JESUS from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by HIS spirit that dwelleth in you --8:12-- therefore brethren we are debtors not to the flesh to live after the flesh --8:13--for if you live after the flesh you shall die but if you through the spirit do mortify the deeds of the body you shall live 

ACTS 5:30  THE GOD of our fathers raised up JESUS whom you slew and hanged on a tree 

ACTS 1:1  the former treatise have I made o theophilus of all that JESUS began both to do and teach  --1:2-- until the day HE was taken up after that HE through the holy spirit had given commandments unto the apostles whom HE had chosen 

JOHN 12:49  for I have not spoken of myself but  THE  FATHER  which sent  ME  HE  GAVE  ME  a commandment what I should say and what I should speak --12:50-- and I know that HIS commandment is life everlasting whatsoever I speak therefore even as  THE  FATHER  said unto  ME  so I speak

 

JOHN 5:21  FOR  AS  THE  FATHER  RAISETH  UP  THE  DEAD  AND  QUICKENETH  THEM  EVEN  SO  THE  SON  QUICKENETH  WHOM  HE  WILL

1 PETER 1:22  SEEING  YOU  HAVE  PURIFIED  YOUR  SOULS  IN  OBEYING  THE  TRUTH  THROUGH  THE  SPIRIT  UNTO  UNFEIGNED  LOVE  OF  THE  BRETHREN  SEE  THAT  YOU  LOVE  ONE  ANOTHER  WITH  A  PURE  HEART  FERVENTLY  

--1:23-- BEING  BORN  AGAIN  NOT  OF  CORRUPTIBLE  SEED  BUT  OF  INCORRUPTIBLE  BY  THE  WORD  OF  GOD  WHICH  LIVETH  AND  ABIDETH  FOREVER 

1 TIMOTHY 2:5  FOR  THERE --IS  ONE  MEDIATOR-- BETWEEN  GOD  AND  MEN  THE  MAN  JESUS  CHRIST  

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  AND  HIS  BRETHREN 

 

[TrevorL]

On 2/19/2020 at 3:27 PM, Walter Goraj jr said:

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One" ( 1Jn. 5:7)

Here is the Word of God to prove it. Hope the Holy Spirit moves you to embrace it.

Greetings Walter Goraj jr,

Many Trinitarian scholars consider this passage to be spurious. For example consider Barnes' NT Notes. Most modern translation exclude this passage.

Kind regards Trevor

[Justin Adams]

I suggest you listen to Dr. Heiser, a notable Hebraic scholar, and his Trinity Lecture. The Trinity is in the Tanakh. The apostles did not invent it as it is clearly seen in the Tanakh. (put the https:// at the beginning of the URL)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS22MPVFngs

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Justin Adams

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Walter Goraj jr,

2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Even though the King James version of 1st John 5:7 is not found in many manuscripts, I believe the translators prayerfully considered this and ultimately God allows it to be there for us to see today.

And thankfully so because it is one of the main go-to verses to illustrate the God in three persons beimg one. 

Modern translations (after 1881 specifically) have gone out of their way in many many verses in trying to steal or weaken the Divinity of God. I have been comparing verses for quite some time now and if you haven't done this already maybe you should too. Compare the KJV with the NIV, NASB etc. And see if you feel the same way.

Each of us need to decide whether or not we accept this passage and I accept what Barnes’ NT Notes states is valid. I suggest that Trinitarians must be desperate to rely upon this passage. Even if we accept 1 John 5:7 as it appears in the KJV, we need to consider whether it is actually teaching the Trinity. There are a few passages in the NIV that seem to be more biased towards the Trinity than the KJV. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Consider Psalm 110:1 and its many NT quotations and expositions.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Resurrection Priest]

2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I don't understand how you mean " trinitarians must be desperate." Do you understand (and believe) in scripture that God is three distinct persons in one?

Yes.  I believe in Scripture. 

No.    I do not believe that "God" exists as "three distinct persons".  I believe that "God" is "God our Father" - the Father of Jesus Christ.  I believe the Father beget from Himself, a second divine being, who was exactly like Himself.  That being was incarnated into the womb of Mary to live in human flesh.  I worship both the Father and His Son.  I see no command to worship another. 

I see no prayer, no glory, no worship ever given to a third divine person/being.  A third divine being has no name, no throne, no recognition AS a third divine being. 

13 times, Paul began his letters with "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ".  What?  Did he forget the Holy Spirit - 13 times? 

  1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. "

Ephesians 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." 

If He is "through all, and in all" that means He - God the Father - is spirit. 

John 17:3 [Jesus began this prayer with "Father".]  "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

The Triune baptismal formula is NOT FOUND in any Greek manuscript before Constantine's Council of Nicea.   ONE ancient Aramaic manuscript containing the text of Matthew 28:19 exists.  In that manuscript, the text reads "baptizing them in My name".  At least six other passages in the NT confirm that is what the disciples did.  They baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.   Eusibius quotes the passage in the same way - as "in My name", some 18 times. 

[Resurrection Priest]

13 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I suggest you listen to Dr. Heiser, a notable Hebraic scholar, and his Trinity Lecture. The Trinity is in the Tanakh. The apostles did not invent it as it is clearly seen in the Tanakh. (put the https:// at the beginning of the URL)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS22MPVFngs

 

Heiser teaches that fallen angels took human form to impregnate human women, who then gave birth to super humans - the "Nephillim".  Heiser is trying very hard to please the official "church" with its Trinity doctrine, while also teaching many things that the mainline "church" is not altogether comfortable with, including the idea that the Holy Spirit is female. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Walter Goraj jr,

4 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I don't understand how you mean " trinitarians must be desperate."

Your use of this doubtful passage is possible proof that your claim has no real substance and that you could not find any other real proof. The following is one of the introductory comments in Barnes’ Notes on 1 John 5:7: “There is no passage of the New Testament which has given rise to so much discussion in regard to its genuineness as this.” I will let you read the rest of his comments, and one online source is Bible Hub. There are other commentaries there as well, possibly on both sides of the fence. Now either it is genuine or not, and many Trinitarians claim it is not genuine, and as a result your original post using this passage is not proof positive, rather it is proof doubtful, or proof negative. I believe that this verse was deliberately added or accidently added when a marginal note by someone was added into the text by someone else.

 

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 3:27 PM, Walter Goraj jr said:

Here is the Word of God to prove it. Hope the Holy Spirit moves you to embrace it.

 

4 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Do you understand (and believe) in scripture that God is three distinct persons in one?

No, I do not believe in three beings as God, but one Being, God the Father, Yahweh as God. I stated that I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also asked you to consider Psalm 110:1 and its many NT quotations and expositions. I do not know what view that you have of God in heaven, three Beings sitting upon the Throne side-by side. God the Holy Spirit seated on the left, God the Father sitting in the middle and God the Son, now a man also, seated at the right. My perspective is that God the Father is seated upon His Throne, Jesus, a human, a man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection, has been invited to temporarily sit on God’s right hand, and the Holy Spirit is God’s power which He and Jesus send forth to accomplish God’s Will.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[HAZARD]

 

Fundamental Christianity generally teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity are one, that is, united, in one body.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut. 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means united, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 refers to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that the Word took upon Himself a flesh and bone body, becoming Jesus, and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

I John 5:7-8, V. 7, For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 

 8, And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 

If all three are witnesses, then they must be separate persons. One person cannot be three witnesses on any court on Earth or in Heaven.

The water and the blood simply confirm the intelligent testimonies of the three persons of the Godhead and give additional weight to the sonship of Jesus.

Three witnesses of the Humanity and Sonship:
1. The Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus at His water baptism (Mat. 3:13-17).
2. The water - threefold witness;
(1). Water baptism symbolizing His own death, burial, and resurrection (Mat. 3:13-170.
(2). Water of the Word bearing witness to the incarnation (Isa. 7:14;9:6-7; Mat. 1:23; Luke 1:34-35)
(3). Water and blood at the crucifixtion testifying of His humanity (John 19:34).


3. The blood, testifying not only the humanity and sonship of Jesus Christ, but guaranteeing redemption from sin (Mt. 26:28; Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:14; Col. 1:20-22; Heb. 9:14-26; 10:1-23; 1 John 1:7).

Agree to the point of the humanity and sonship of Jesus. If we receive witness of sinful men who can so easily deceive, we should gladly receive the witness of God who cannot possibly deceive. God's witness of His Son are greater than all men. Every unbeliever receives the fruit of His own rejection of God (John 3:36).