The powerlessness of Grace when mixed with the Law

[Tzephanyahu]

I've not read of anyone on here saying the Law saves. That argument is just a distraction. 

I can see why those who do not bother with Torah are offended by those who do.  Because its as if its implied that their walk thus far has been incorrect, and so it's offensive. 

But continuing to put words in each others mouth does not help the debate. It's just non-Torah observers repeatedly saying "no works can save!" and "it's a time of rest!" and Torah observers saying "oh, so you are saying it's okay to murder, covet or steal?"... 

No one on either side is saying this things. So it's such a waste of time for both sides to argue against what is NOT being said. 

[Alive]

Really--all one has to do is to read Galatians especially and other relevant scriptures.

 

[Alive]

A few more relevant passages.

In the first Paul was addressing the fact that some who were 'weak in faith' were struggling with Grace and freedom and letting go of the old traditions.

Rom. 14:5   ^aOne person ¹regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be ^bfully convinced in his own mind. ⁶ He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, ¹does so for the Lord, for he ^agives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

THe second gives a snapshot of how Paul viewed the law in general.

Rom. 13:8   Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for ^ahe who loves ¹his neighbor has fulfilled the law. ⁹ For this, “^aYOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “^bYOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” ¹⁰ Love ¹does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore ^alove is the fulfillment of the law.

[Tigger56]

20 hours ago, Alive said:

God bless you brother. I hear you and see that you are sincere and love the Lord. The things that some folks are wanting to share and emphasize is where we place our ultimate trust. Is it in the Grace of God and the blood of Christ, or is it in our own efforts to please. It can be subtle in experience, but is significant for our experience of Him in our daily walks.

Humans have a built in machine that wants to 'do something' and that is a great and proper driving influence in all areas but one. We cannot save ourselves and neither do we need to keep ourselves saved. This does not necessarily change the actual visible lives we live, but it does influence what is happening within us and either hinders or allows a free flow of the Life within us to energize.

To some this sort of dialog is a distinction without a difference, but it is. The difference is 'rest' in Him. I often think about sitting in an easy chair. I repose in a state of 'rest' in that easy chair just as I do 'In Christ'. The reality is--I run faster and jump higher from that place of 'rest' than from the ready position on the track or while jumping hurdles. This is contrary to the natural mind and the tendency for that need to 'be active' in our own natural strength. This is the lesson of Jacob. A man who had great natural strength and talent that he employed for most of his life until the wrestling match with the Lord. That encounter wounded and cut to the core of his natural strength. Thereafter, Jacob walked with a limp and his Name was changed. He learned that he could do nothing without God and it fundamentally changed him and his way of running. The Lord wants us to give up and to give in.

I appreciate your words. I trust in the Lord Jesus and he is the finisher of my faith. I "actively rest" in him. My salvation rests in his hands, my trust is in his perfect love, his perfect way, his perfect will for me in my life and in his perfect example. I don't trust in my own strength but I do trust in how in strengthens me in my walk with him. In my weakness he is made strong in my life. But my weakness does not mean that I give up. I do give in unto his Lordship in my life for he is my Messiah, Savior, God and King.  I walk with my Lord and in that walk I obey him in his desires for me. In that desire I know he expects me to say "Yes, Lord" and follow him. To follow him, for me, is once again to be obedient unto his way. His way is the way of truth and truth is found in his perfect example and his perfect teachings. I become a living sacrifice and keep his word, which means I serve, I love and I obey. All of this does incorporate the law which he kept, and he taught. He is the perfect example set forth in how men should walk in this life. I will fail, but as a child of God, as a child of light, I will walk according to his example. In his life he loved his Father above all else and in that love he kept the law.

[Tigger56]

20 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

But you haven't answered my question about "keeping" the Law of "offering" sacrifices for your sin in God's Temple in Jerusalem, ...so, are you"ignoring" God's Law, or are "you choosing which of them "you"chose to keep?

Let's add to that, ...you say you use the example of Paul "running" the race...

Did Paul "keep the Law, ...did he teach us in his letters to "keep" the Law?

 

This shows that you were writing to me. I haven't ignored anything. I do obey the law of my God. I do not offer sacrifices for they were a shadow of the ultimate sacrifice of our Lord. That sacrifice didn't condemn or abolish the law of God. I am amazed that I would be questioned as to whether I choose which ones to keep. I choose to follow my Lord. He kept all of the law. He was the perfect sacrifice so to do animal sacrifices would be to deny my Lord. But to ignore all of his teachings would also be to deny him. So let me ask you, which one of the commandments do you ignore? Which commandment shouldn't be kept. Lets look at all 10.... which one do you not keep?  

As for Paul, yes Paul kept the law and he never tells anyone not to keep the law of God. 

[Tigger56]

1 minute ago, maryjayne said:

I think I am beginning to understand better. By "The Law" that you follow, do you mean the Ten Commandments?

and is that the same Law you mean Paul kept? Forgive me, I am getting confused again by the references to what appears to be different sets of Law.

I thought that Paul kept the mosaic law when among Jews, so as not to alienate them, but didnt follow the mosaic law when among gentiles.

I have kept most of my discussion to the 10 commandments as it keeps it more compact. But I also believe that Paul kept the Holy Days and kept the dietary laws as well.

[Tigger56]

2 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

so you dont only keep the 10 commandments? confused again. 

and you do think Paul kept the mosaic law even when with gentiles? I am sorry, not being argumentative, it just felt like I had nailed a couple of straightforward questions to you, but not got direct answers.

Don't mean to confuse. Yes, I keep the 10 commandments. I also keep all of God's holy days. I also observe the dietary laws. I believe that Paul kept God's law no matter who he was with. He didn't observe all of the Jewish traditions, one being that they thought they shouldn't even sit and eat with Gentiles. No need to be sorry, don't feel that you are being argumentative at all. You are being inquisitive and that is being as those in Berea, see Acts 17:11,

I do need to spend to time with the Lord right now in prayer so if you write again don't worry if it takes me a while before I reply.  Hope you have a blessed Sabbath day.

[steve morrow]

OLD  MAN  NEW  MAN -- OLD  COVENANT  NEW  COVENANT -- OLD  LAW  NEW  LAW --- OLD  TESTAMENT  NEW  TESTAMENT ---

 

JOHN 8:43  WHY  DO  YOU  NOT  UNDERSTAND  MY  SPEECH  EVEN  BECAUSE  --- YOU  CANNOT  HEAR  MY  WORD ---

MATTHEW 13:16  for this peoples heart is waxed gross and their ears are dull of hearing and their eyes they have closed lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears ---AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART--- AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED ---AND  I SHOULD HEAL THEM ---

MATTHEW 4:4 but HE answered and said it is written--- MAN  SHALL  NOT  LIVE --- BY  BREAD  ALONE --- BUT  BY  EVERY  WORD  THAT  PROCEEDETH   OUT  OF  THE  MOUTH  OF  GOD --- 

2 TIMOTHY 2:7 consider what I say and THE  LORD give you understanding in ---ALL  THINGS---

HEBREWS 5:11  of whom we have many things to say and hard to be uttered --- SEEING  YOU  ARE  DULL  OF  HEARING---

 

*******PROVERBS 21:16  the man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead*******

ROMANS 2:11  FOR  THERE  IS  NO  RESPECT  OF  PERSONS  WITH  GOD  

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

JAMES 3:14 but if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts glory not and--- lie not about the truth ---

PSALM 25:10  ALL  THE  PATHS  OF  THE  LORD  ARE  MERCY  AND  TRUTH  UNTO  SUCH  AS  ---KEEP  HIS  COVENANT  AND  HIS  TESTIMONIES---

LUKE 1:50  AND   HIS  MERCY  IS  ON  THEM  THAT  FEAR  HIM  FROM  GENERATION  TO  GENERATION

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

2 CORINTHIANS 4:2  therefore seeing we have this ministry as we have received mercy we faint not ---4:3--- but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty not walking in craftiness ---nor handling the word of GOD deceitfully but by manifestation of ---THE TRUTH--- commending ourselves to every mans conscience in ---THE  SIGHT  OF  GOD ---

1 CORINTHIANS 4:2  MOREOVER  IT  IS ---REQUIRED--- IN  STEWARDS  THAT  A  MAN  BE  FOUND  FAITHFUL

ROMANS  10:17  SO  THEN  FAITH  COMETH  BY  HEARING  AND  HEARING  BY  ---THE  WORD  OF  GOD---

 

*******1 CORINTHIANS 11:2 now I praise you brethren that you remember me in all things ---AND  KEEP  THE  ORDINANCES--- as I delivered them to you*******

*******1 CORINTHIANS 14:37  if any man think himself to be a prophet ---OR SPIRITUAL--- let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of THE LORD

 

1 CORINTHIANS 16:22  ---IF  ANY  MAN--- love not  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST ---let him be anathema maranatha 

JOHN 14:15  IF  YOU  LOVE  ME  KEEP  MY  COMMANDMENTS  

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  

 

[Tigger56]

On 2/7/2020 at 11:06 AM, Behold said:

 

 I've never met, heard, or seen preached, or heard preached..... or myself preached any message that says that Grace is a License to sin.

This message does not exist, but there are a lot of people  (Legalists) who pretend that to preach Grace as Jesus taught Paul to understand it..... and preach it, is this "license to sin".

Jude says that one of the end time "signs" is that the world will be filled with fake Christian heretics, all preaching that Grace is a license to sin.

Thats interesting isn't it?  As you can't find one "christian" forum that does not allow this heresy to be Threaded and Threaded and on and on................... 

And one more. .. You are to please God by living a holy life.  The 12 commandments....2 by Jesus and 10 by Moses, are a lifestyle boundary that we as believers are to exits within.  They are our literal boundary that keeps us as God would have us BEHAVE.

We are to present our bodies a LIVING SACRIFICE.   We are to take up our Cross DAILY.  We are to be in the world and not of the world.

WE are to get offline, off the CABLE TV, and OFF THE THE CELL PHONE TEXT MADNESS, and get a BIBLE and study it, and live a life that directs people to the CROSS.

However.....= the Devil's TWIST comes in, the heresy comes in, the cross denying legalism that spits in the face of God...comes in,  when someone preaches and teaches that living holy is how to be saved and not living holy, is how to be damned, = in place of BEING BORN AGAIN and accepted and Kept by GOD by "justification by Faith".....ALONE. 

THAT is the devil's gospel.  (Self saving by commandment keeping, and doing WORKS)...... That is "falling from Grace" theology.  That is taking the cross out of Salvation and putting self righteousness in its place.

That is Galatians 1:8

You seem to be ranting. At me?  not sure. I live and preach both in words and actions that Jesus is our Savior. Without his grace, without his love, without his sacrifice I would be as one with no hope. So I praise my Lord and I obey him. In that obedience I follow God's perfect laws.

[Tigger56]

23 hours ago, steve morrow said:

OLD  MAN  NEW  MAN -- OLD  COVENANT  NEW  COVENANT -- OLD  LAW  NEW  LAW --- OLD  TESTAMENT  NEW  TESTAMENT ---

 

JOHN 8:43  WHY  DO  YOU  NOT  UNDERSTAND  MY  SPEECH  EVEN  BECAUSE  --- YOU  CANNOT  HEAR  MY  WORD ---

MATTHEW 13:16  for this peoples heart is waxed gross and their ears are dull of hearing and their eyes they have closed lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears ---AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART--- AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED ---AND  I SHOULD HEAL THEM ---

MATTHEW 4:4 but HE answered and said it is written--- MAN  SHALL  NOT  LIVE --- BY  BREAD  ALONE --- BUT  BY  EVERY  WORD  THAT  PROCEEDETH   OUT  OF  THE  MOUTH  OF  GOD --- 

2 TIMOTHY 2:7 consider what I say and THE  LORD give you understanding in ---ALL  THINGS---

HEBREWS 5:11  of whom we have many things to say and hard to be uttered --- SEEING  YOU  ARE  DULL  OF  HEARING---

 

*******PROVERBS 21:16  the man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead*******

ROMANS 2:11  FOR  THERE  IS  NO  RESPECT  OF  PERSONS  WITH  GOD  

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

JAMES 3:14 but if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts glory not and--- lie not about the truth ---

PSALM 25:10  ALL  THE  PATHS  OF  THE  LORD  ARE  MERCY  AND  TRUTH  UNTO  SUCH  AS  ---KEEP  HIS  COVENANT  AND  HIS  TESTIMONIES---

LUKE 1:50  AND   HIS  MERCY  IS  ON  THEM  THAT  FEAR  HIM  FROM  GENERATION  TO  GENERATION

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

2 CORINTHIANS 4:2  therefore seeing we have this ministry as we have received mercy we faint not ---4:3--- but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty not walking in craftiness ---nor handling the word of GOD deceitfully but by manifestation of ---THE TRUTH--- commending ourselves to every mans conscience in ---THE  SIGHT  OF  GOD ---

1 CORINTHIANS 4:2  MOREOVER  IT  IS ---REQUIRED--- IN  STEWARDS  THAT  A  MAN  BE  FOUND  FAITHFUL

ROMANS  10:17  SO  THEN  FAITH  COMETH  BY  HEARING  AND  HEARING  BY  ---THE  WORD  OF  GOD---

 

*******1 CORINTHIANS 11:2 now I praise you brethren that you remember me in all things ---AND  KEEP  THE  ORDINANCES--- as I delivered them to you*******

*******1 CORINTHIANS 14:37  if any man think himself to be a prophet ---OR SPIRITUAL--- let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of THE LORD

 

1 CORINTHIANS 16:22  ---IF  ANY  MAN--- love not  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST ---let him be anathema maranatha 

JOHN 14:15  IF  YOU  LOVE  ME  KEEP  MY  COMMANDMENTS  

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  

 

Not sure what all of these scriptures are posted for in regards to this conversation.... but hope you feel better.