The powerlessness of Grace when mixed with the Law

[George]

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

God used evolution to create Adam

Honestly, I haven't seen the thread.  I'll go looking for it.

[George]

5 minutes ago, George said:

Honestly, I haven't seen the thread.  I'll go looking for it.

I just found the thread ... and quite frankly it's an interesting discussion and it's solidly repudiated.  After reading quite a few of the posts, I'm learning how to refute this a bit better which I didn't know before. 

[Amanda Frances]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

The key word is "require"

Love doesn't require action, but action comes from love

Salvation doesn't require action, but action comes from salvation.

Nothing is demanded, or required for salvation. This has been established and accepted by many voices, on many threads.

We choose our actions, based purely on love. It's our free gift. God needs nothing from us. 

God demands nothing from those Born again. Any works we do are from our own free will, not compulsion from God.

This is how those born again differ from those under the old covenant, which Christ delivered us from.

 

I have not read this hold thread but I know salvation is a gift of God and not of works at all.   We know from Romans 7 the law does not save. 

But I see from scripture God does have expectations from his children.  These works do not save and they should be works or love and gratitude I agree.

 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: ²⁶ “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. ²⁷ And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

In the great commission we are told to go ....

In Revelation God judges the church and their dedication to him and judges what they have done or not done.  Their are to be rewards in heaven as well.  

 

Ephesians 2:10 New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[1to3]

On 2/10/2020 at 10:39 AM, Flowersun said:

Before I could Love God/obey his commandments...first he had to take up residence in my spirit,in order for me to do that...I still fall short of his commandments.....how can one Love God or keep his commandments in their own strength.....one needs to be born again I believe.....

your words confirm Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

[Amanda Frances]

3 hours ago, Margo1945 said:

hi @Amanda Frances .. nice to see you .. hope you are well 

Thank you Margo yes I am fine.  Nice to see you.  Miss you! GBU

 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 2/4/2020 at 3:28 PM, dhchristian said:

Greeting Tigger,

We do not throw out the law we fulfill the law. It is the schoolmaster that leads us to Christ Jesus who fulfilled the righteous requirement of the Law. We Receive HIS righteousness by Grace. Consider what Paul wrote about the Hebrew People in Romans 10.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Verses 2-4)

After Belief (Faith), we receive The righteousness of God, Now mind you we are still in our sinful flesh, and our flesh is weak, but now The Spirit is willing. We will continue to sin even as new Born Christians though that sin will no longer have control over us, and as we learn as Christians to put to death the flesh, BY HIS GRACE, we will begin to overcome those sins in our life. I Highlighted "BY HIS GRACE" for a reason, because as soon as we start trying to this by our strength and will we will either fail, or fall into a proud heart. Pride being the original sin that is overcome by the Grace of God. Thus we are made righteous and obedient NOT by our works, But by His Grace at work in us. The Moment we try to finish the work ourselves we have fallen away from grace. Paul writes: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. (Romans 11:6)

As soon as we Make either our sanctification or our justification or our progressive sanctification by works of our own will and strength we are falling away from grace.

The Sabbath is the big sticking point here. Jesus, Who is Lord of the sabbath, said  The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: (Mark 2:27) 

Most who are hung up on the fourth commandment do not understand What Jesus is saying here. What he is saying is that the sabbath was a benefit for man, not something that was to be a burden for man. Jesus by fulfilling the Law of the sabbath and finishing His work on the cross, did not do away with the sabbath, but he made Himself to be our sabbath rest, that we cease from our works and striving for righteousness by our own strength and will, and instead rest in His Righteousness. By resting in His finished work of righteousness in us, we are fulfilling the sabbath rest. His Burden is light, is How Jesus describes this. He used those words because the Law allows for a light burden to be bourn on the Sabbath, a Mother can pick up and feed her infant, a man can rescue his sheep that has fallen into a ditch etc. That light burden we carry is the burden of Love. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, Love your neighbor, and love one another as Christ loved us. Thus we become the Stewards of God's grace towards others, the avenue through which his love is perfected. So We see a man stuck on the roof whose ladder has fallen over on Saturday we are able to go over to his house, pick up the ladder and reset it for him and not be held guilty, because that is an act of love for our neighbor. Or we can volunteer to work for Habitat for Humanity and build a house for them on a Saturday and not be burdened with the 4th commandment, for we are fulfilling the Spirit of the Law by our loving action. Or my Wife can go to the Hospital and care for a child in intensive care on a Saturday whose life is in need of her care on a Saturday without being Lawless or labeled as such.

Or are you going to choose to be like the Pharisees and condemn Jesus for healing on the sabbath?

This is Known as the doctrine of Rest. The Sabbath rest was a foreshadow of the Rest we have by believing in His finished Work, which empowered by Grace allows us to Love one another as Christ Loved us. This being the NEW COMMANDMENT that Christ Jesus Gave us, and exemplified by Going to the cross and dying for sinners such as we all are.But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

We cannot learn to Love like Christ did Apart from His Grace. Grace is the Gasoline that makes the engine run, without grace all we have is a cart with wheels that we must push but we will not get very far down the road before we are exhausted. Do You understand this? 

Just reading through the posts in this thread.  Grace vs Law.  I thought your post was great - almost all of it. 

Only part I disagreed with, was rendering "the Sabbath" a symbol (foreshadow), and excluding any literal command to stop "work" (things we do to make a living).  

Seems like the Sabbath - for you - is in the catagory of symbolic prophectic type.  Something symbolic, that pointed forward to Christ, so that now we can just rest in Jesus' completed work.  We no longer sacrifice lambs, and we no longer need to literally stop working during the Sabbath, to supply our needs for food/clothing/shelter/etc.  

Are any of the other 9 commandments solely symbolic/prophetic, excluding any need for literal action/inaction?  

I thought the examples:  feeding babies, fallen ladder, sheep in the ditch,  were misplaced.  Those things are allowed in the Torah - especially if the ladder fell on the neighbor.  And Christ healing on the Sabbath was allowed - for Him.  Jesus did not break "the Law" of "God His Father", in the slightest degree.  He "was obedient unto death" (Phil 2:8). 

Firemen, pharmacists, nurses, security personnel are all serving essential needs that continue on/through the Sabbath hours.  All through the history of Israel, the priests who gutted and cleaned the animals for sacrifice on the Sabbath, were NOT breaking the Law.  They were providing essential services, and were doing so at the LORD's command.  And THAT was a lot of physical effort - dressing animals for sacrifice.

The disciples of Christ, who plucked a few grains to eat, first rolling them in their own hands to clean them, were NOT breaking the Sabbath.  That was just the false accusation of the Pharisees with their phony Oral Torah (added laws). 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 2/6/2020 at 2:41 PM, DustyRoad said:

Do you believe Jesus Christ alone saves us, sanctifies us, and presents us blameless before our Father in heaven? Do you believe that Jesus Christ would send God's Spirit to dwell with the disobedient, my friend? What did Peter and the other apostles say in Acts 5:32?

"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

1.  Yes I do - except for the words "dwell with the disobedient". 

2.  The Holy Spirit is "given to those who obey Him", according to the verse you quoted.  (Acts 5:32)

The Spirit of God leaves those who continue in willful, rebellious disobedience.  

[Resurrection Priest]

This thread began with a statement that the Old Testament was the Covenant of Law, and the New Testament is the Covenant of Grace. 

I thought there was lots of "grace" during the Old Testament period.  "Grace" means "unmerited favor.  "Noah found grace."  Israel found grace.  Lots of it. 

Deuteronomy 9:6  "Know therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people." RSV

That's grace.

If no one was ever "justified by works of the law", then how was anyone ever saved from that time period?  And we know of many who will be saved into the forever kingdom.

Answer:  they offered sacrifices, which typified Yeshua.  They looked forward - in faith - to Messiah, just like we look back - in faith, when we eat the bread and drink the wine. 

We're all looking - in faith - to the same person.  Yeshua our Savior.

The people of the First Covenant were not saved in a different way - by perfect behavior.   They just looked forward in a different way - different symbols (animal sacrifices instead of the "bread" and the "wine"). 

They did not behave perfectly.  Neither do we. 

The remedy was/is Jesus the Messiah and Savior.  

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

10 hours ago, Tigger56 said:

I never thought you were questioning my faith but thanks for saying so.

I feel anyone being led by the Holy Spirit would then naturally keep the law for the law is the holy word of the Lord. As Paul, I bring my body under subjection to run the race, this is done by God's spirit within me. It isn't my fleshly power, whenever I make the mistake of seeking my own strength in a matter, I will typically fail. But with his presence, his spirit, his power, his strength, his love, his faith then I run, I soar, I conquer and yes.... I obey. You do misunderstand, you seem to feel that the law is a burden. The curse of failing, being condemned to death was a great, huge burden that none of us could remove, but our Lord did it in his perfect obedience unto the law and his perfect sacrifice. The law, itself, is not a burden, it is a blessing. How can I ever explain the joy of the Sabbath?  It is impossible unless someone keeps it!  I look forward to it each week!  Not a burden. I yearn for the Holy Days, they are filled with joy and power! Not a burden.   I rejoice in knowing how to show love unto the Lord and do it each day with joy! Each day, I seek to lay my day upon the altar.

The scriptures are plenteous that indicate that the law was kept after Pentecost. Even the observance of Pentecost and the receiving of God's holy spirit on that day confirms the law.

The Lord is telling me to keep the law both in his perfect example and words but also by their holy spirit leading me.  If the holy spirit is telling you not to be obedient, to seek rebellion then perhaps you need to ask yourself some questions as well.

“ By The WORKS OF THE LAW No Flesh will be Justified”.......... there is PLENTY more.....

[dhchristian]

39 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

(things we do to make a living). 

I Think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. It has nothing to do with making a living, resting your body for a day is beneficial for the human body. It has to do with resting from your works and trusting In his finished work on the cross. This rest is belief in his finished work on the cross, Not entering his rest is akin to unbelief, which is to say we are saved by grace Plus works, which is not true. We are saved by Grace, kept by grace and sanctified by grace. Grace is the Gasoline that runs the engine. Some think we can clean ourselves up by our own work, and this is the lie of the devil. Like pushing a car up a hill you may be able to for a little bit but then it comes rolling back, But when Grace is at work in the engine the car climbs the his with only a light burden on our part, that is pressing the gas pedal and letting the car carry us with the high octane grace in the engine. 

Ask yourself, why are the most religious people most prone to hidden sexual sins such as pedophilia and homosexuality in the priesthood? Because they are always trying to look good of their own strength and will and push the car up the hill and then it rolls back over them when they have exhausted their own efforts to do anything about it. This is what Paul was lamenting in Romans 7, until he gave us romans 8. YOU cannot make your self righteous, Only God working in you can lead you to righteousness by His grace. 

So, Now, under the new covenant every day is a day of rest. Not just the seventh day. Read Hebrews 3-4 if you do not understand this. Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest. There still remains a sabbath for the People, who are still under the Law, But those in Christ have liberty. 

The Other Laws as well have a fulfillment in Christ Jesus. For example murder. Under the Old law so long as you did not kill anyone physically you could hate them all you want, And in fact hating your enemies was a good thing. Under the New covenant by His grace we learn that when we hate we are committing murder in our heart, or if we look upon a woman lustfully we are committing adultery. The Holy Spirit at work in us by the grace of God changes these desires from the inside out in our lives, thus we break the chains of sin altogether. We sin not because we desire not to sin. This is the definition of true virtue if you have ever taken ethics. Having the freedom to choose between good and evil without consequence and choosing to do that which is Good. Obedience at the threat of death is not virtue, But obedience done in liberty is true virtue. By Grace we are given Liberty not to sin that grace may abound, but to that through this sanctification by grace we may produce the righteous fruit of the Spirit. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2)