Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

They are accounted to be millions of years away only if the speed of light is a constant. Which is most likely is not.

The other theory is that light-speed has been slowing down on a hyperbolic curve: it was near instantaneous in the beginning, then rapidly slowed until reaching the near flatline velocity of the present day. If this theory is correct -- and there is both empirical evidence as well as ancient Hebraic doctrinal testimony for this -- then the stars are not as distant as they appear, as based upon present assumptions.

All this does not necessarily support creation in six 24-hour days, but does provide for the possibility of the age of the earth and universe to be many magnitudes of years shorter than billions of years.

There is no good reason to believe that light-speed did not degenerate along with the like degeneration of all other parts of Creation.

Yea I read about the Jewish Scientists theory a few years back where he was saying something on this line and it somehow wound up being a 6000 year creation, I found it interesting, even though I discounted it, at least he had made a descent argument. The reason I discount it all is why would God need to change the Laws of Nature ? He created TIME for us, He lives outside of time, that is why He need not be created. 

So some suppose God changed the Laws of Nature for creation, but since God lives in all time at once, He wouldn't need to hurry anything up, God created the Universe and was living in its completion instantaneously in the future already !! The Laws of Nature are the Laws of Nature, they are indeed constant. 

The Seventh Day of Rest is at least 6000 years long !! We are still in Gods resting period.

Look at Mr Richard Deems site, it is the best Christian site on these subjects I can recommend. 

GOOGLE THIS and I am sure you will enjoy....there are many things on there, one shows why the universe has to be the EXACT SIZE it is, if it were any larger or smaller it would not have come into being. 

God Bless.

If God Created Everything, Who Created God?
by Rich Deem 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

7 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It's not spurious. It's more than legit. The problem is that pretrib avoids persecution of the 'church' at the hands of the ruler of this world.

Part of the argument is that those 'left behind' are not good enough to be 'taken' and they must undergo purification. 

Then what of those dying today in the name of Jesus? If persecution is the wrath of God in the 'tribulation period' then why isn't the persecution experience of 100,000 a year wrath? Which pretrib says we are to avoid through the early exit.

You have it backwards, I keep telling you the Church's MISSION is over, the reason Noah was not taken straight to Heaven WAS Jesus had not been born yet so the seed was not yet alive to purge mankind's sin, thus Noah had a job to do, replenish the earth. Likewise Daniel and all the Jews had to birth the Savior. Once Jesus was born Paul's mission was to SAVE the Gentiles from darkness via the Gospel, and then we would spread that Gospel to the end of the world, that couldn't be done by the Church being TAKEN TO Heaven at that time, they had a MISSION TO COMPLETE !!

When that mission is COMPLETE please explain to me what good could we do on this earth ? The Two-witnesses of God are going to show up and get the Jews to REPENT !! Our job is FINISHED on this earth, Jesus/God doesn't need us here any longer. I don't get why you can't get this. 

 

[WilliamL]

25 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Yea I read about the Jewish Scientists theory a few years back where he was saying something on this line and it somehow wound up being a 6000 year creation, I found it interesting, even though I discounted it, at least he had made a descent argument. The reason I discount it all is why would God need to change the Laws of Nature ? He created TIME for us, He lives outside of time, that is why He need not be created. 

I has nothing to do with changing the laws of nature. Entropy is a law of nature.

It is like saying, why did God change the laws of nature, wherein the pre-diluvian patriarchs lived into their 900s, but post-diluvian peoples lives became vastly shorter?

Answer: God's original Creation became corrupted by entropy.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Mr. 6000.......I agree with literally nothing you say, so why would I have thought you would never be a young earther ? 

Its why I stopped replying to you, I agree with nothing you say on the bible. I saw it as a waste of both our time remember ?

I Am just humbly correcting your obvious error, that is all. You have no biblical support for an Old Earth, All your proof is scientific theory, and even that is agenda driven. 

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Yea I read about the Jewish Scientists theory a few years back

Who, Einstein? Because he is the one that proposed VSL (Variable speed of Light), before his theory of relativity. Look it up. 

[ENOCH2010]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Lol, nothing classic about what I believe. Why don't you provide the scriptural support on whether or not those before the throne had their new bodies. As I said, I am not aware of any scripture that offers inconclusive evidence.

Let me guess, classic replacement theology. Side note - the nation of Israel has been around since 1948.

I'll answer the first part, I live by the moto "if the Bible is silent about a subject I am to", that's why I don't believe a word of the pre-trib doctrine, it's not in the Bible. 

As far as your statement about me supporting replacement theology, I wont even dignify that with a response. I have been on this site for 10 years, you wont find one post I have made that suggests such a thing. 

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's not spurious. It's more than legit. The problem is that pretrib avoids persecution of the 'church' at the hands of the ruler of this world.

Part of the argument is that those 'left behind' are not good enough to be 'taken' and they must undergo purification. 

Then what of those dying today in the name of Jesus? If persecution is the wrath of God in the 'tribulation period' then why isn't the persecution experience of 100,000 a year wrath? Which pretrib says we are to avoid through the early exit.

Yes, it was spurious, simply because you are not well versed in the topic and throwing out anything that you think will stick.

For one, classic pre-millennial Pre-trib adherents state that all who are in the Body... redeemed by Messiah and sealed by the Holy Spirit... will make the trip.   None of this goofy "not good enough" protestant purgatory nonsense.   All who are redeemed get caught up.  Yes, even folks like you who seem to despise the idea, if they are actually redeemed and in the body of Messiah.  And I am not sure you will be kicking and screaming to stay behind when that time comes.  

Those that get left behind never had their redemption passport to make the trip.  Now that will probably include some in many congregations simply because showing up regularly to the 1st Overcoming Baptist Church every week and even being in the music  ministry and children's ministry does not make one born again and redeemed.

Now of those that are left behind, because they never were in the body of the redeemed likely will have a change of heart and mind after witnessing the disappearance of many people.   I believe it was in the Book of Enoch that very thing was stated as not only will happen, but that one fo he reasons for the removal is to provide a wake up call to those that are not redeemed.  Unfortunately, those that do realize what happened and turn to the Lord will have a price to pay for their procrastination.  That is the tribulation saints.

Those dying today that are redeemed, they will make the trip also.  Remember, both Paul and Isaiah said both the dead and living righteous will be taken.   While they may be dying "in the name of Jesus", the key component to that is whether they are "in Jesus".   Lots of folks have died over the years when other folks thought they were Christians and killed them.  But that doesn't mean in reality they actually were.  

Yeshua was quite fond of referencing the Hebrew wedding and in scripture it is mentioned that redeemed are the bride of Messiah.  If one studies the minute details of the 1st Century Hebrew marriage, it would become crystal clear why the bride must be removed early on.  Yeshua wasn't just referring to the Hebrew wedding just because one time He got a kick out of turning the water to wine and is looking forward to it again.  

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I has nothing to do with changing the laws of nature. Entropy is a law of nature.

It is like saying, why did God change the laws of nature, wherein the pre-diluvian patriarchs lived into their 900s, but post-diluvian peoples lives became vastly shorter?

Answer: God's original Creation became corrupted by entropy.

But its just a theory that can't be proved, whereas the laws of nature have a constant that are proven. My point is God is living in all time at once, thus as soon as He created the Universe He was living in His finished creation. The Speed of light is constant, no one can testify that its ever been different. I don't go off theories, I go off proof, that is why I follow the Occam's razor principle, keep it simple. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You have it backwards, I keep telling you the Church's MISSION is over, the reason Noah was not taken straight to Heaven WAS Jesus had not been born yet so the seed was not yet alive to purge mankind's sin, thus Noah had a job to do, replenish the earth. Likewise Daniel and all the Jews had to birth the Savior. Once Jesus was born Paul's mission was to SAVE the Gentiles from darkness via the Gospel, and then we would spread that Gospel to the end of the world, that couldn't be done by the Church being TAKEN TO Heaven at that time, they had a MISSION TO COMPLETE !!

When that mission is COMPLETE please explain to me what good could we do on this earth ? The Two-witnesses of God are going to show up and get the Jews to REPENT !! Our job is FINISHED on this earth, Jesus/God doesn't need us here any longer. I don't get why you can't get this. 

 

It's not that I don't understand; I reject your conclusions as scripturally unsound.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

But its just a theory that can't be proved, whereas the laws of nature have a constant that are proven. My point is God is living in all time at once, thus as soon as He created the Universe He was living in His finished creation. The Speed of light is constant, no one can testify that its ever been different. I don't go off theories, I go off proof, that is why follow the occam's razor principle, keep it simple. 

The speed of light is not a constant. In a vacuum it is, perhaps. There is evidence to show that it may not be.

Speed of light slowed to 38 mph.

Speed of light increased.

Fiber optic data transfer has slowed the speed of light for years.

How did I get here?

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Yes, it was spurious, simply because you are not well versed in the topic and throwing out anything that you think will stick.

Well, that's not true. I am well versed. I'm just distilling to the essence. The entire doctrine of pretrib is elitist, fear mongering, deceptive and based wholly on false propositions.

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

For one, classic pre-millennial Pre-trib adherents state that all who are in the Body... redeemed by Messiah and sealed by the Holy Spirit... will make the trip.   None of this goofy "not good enough" protestant purgatory nonsense.   All who are redeemed get caught up.  Yes, even folks like you who seem to despise the idea, if they are actually redeemed and in the body of Messiah.  And I am not sure you will be kicking and screaming to stay behind when that time comes.  

Yes. The first sentence is true of any of the schools of thought on the gathering. The 'purgatory' thing is as ridiculous now as it was when first proposed. It's a theme in several religions and I personally reject such nonsense. I do not reject biblical proof of intense correction by our Father when needed to save the living, and there is a great deal of that.

Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

So judgment begins with the 'church' not others. The 'church' will not be taken out before such judgment but will be glorified because of it.

Read more about it here

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Those that get left behind never had their redemption passport to make the trip.  Now that will probably include some in many congregations simply because showing up regularly to the 1st Overcoming Baptist Church every week and even being in the music  ministry and children's ministry does not make one born again and redeemed. Now of those that are left behind, because they never were in the body of the redeemed likely will have a change of heart and mind after witnessing the disappearance of many people.   I believe it was in the Book of Enoch that very thing was stated as not only will happen, but that one fo he reasons for the removal is to provide a wake up call to those that are not redeemed.  Unfortunately, those that do realize what happened and turn to the Lord will have a price to pay for their procrastination.  That is the tribulation saints.

I reject this conclusion on the grounds that any not taken in the gathering are avowed rebels fated to suffer wrath. Pretrib cannot fathom such a thing as the doctrine demands a conflation of the 70th week and God's wrath. This is the bedrock of the doctrine and it is false. A point of logic, for instance, dispells this; if the entire 70th week is the wrath of God as pretrib demands, and  "under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." occurs within the 70th week as we all know it does, then God's wrath by His own hand is murdering His own martyrs. The acme of absurdity.

 

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Those dying today that are redeemed, they will make the trip also.  Remember, both Paul and Isaiah said both the dead and living righteous will be taken.   While they may be dying "in the name of Jesus", the key component to that is whether they are "in Jesus".   Lots of folks have died over the years when other folks thought they were Christians and killed them.  But that doesn't mean in reality they actually were.  

Not the point and not my argument. If persecution in the 70th week is the wrath of God, which the pretrib doctrine states emphatically, and the trib saints under the altar "had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." and 100,000 are dying every year "for the word of God and for the testimony they hold." then the rapture should have happened already or we are in the 'tribulation period'. Pretrib states such persecution is the wrath of God which is the reason for the rapture, to avoid that, yet there are people dying for Christ under the same conditions which pretrib concludes are God's wrath. 

I'm pretty sure that these martyrs are dying in Christ. One doesn't go to those places and risk one's life apart from firm convictions and strong belief, in this case the Word of God in the power of the Spirit. I think a flippant rejection of the depth of faith of believers in the most dangerous places in the world for the faithful in Christ says much about you.

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Yeshua was quite fond of referencing the Hebrew wedding and in scripture it is mentioned that redeemed are the bride of Messiah.  If one studies the minute details of the 1st Century Hebrew marriage, it would become crystal clear why the bride must be removed early on.  Yeshua wasn't just referring to the Hebrew wedding just because one time He got a kick out of turning the water to wine and is looking forward to it again.  

Yeah...no. While the return of the bridegroom is a analogy for the return of Christ, unless Jesus said more about it the comparison ends there. He didn't and it does. Man's traditions are of zero consequence in this.

No one is taken before the last trumpet sounds well into the last week. Pretrib has no timing in relation to any event or events, where the one and only gathering does. Paul places this gathering only after the beast declares himself as god, confirming the word of Jesus placing the gathering after the A of D. Not only is pretrib refuted unequivocally there is zero evidence for pretrib. The basic propositions of pretrib really boils down to logically fallacious arguments: "You can't prove it doesn't exist ergo, it does." and "It's been stated now prove it wrong."

This is what pretrib relies on aside from it's butchery of critical texts and ignorance of rebuttal texts.