Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[OldCoot]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have seen that, I like his YOUTUBE Video, proving God in 5 minutes. I don't buy it, I just don't get why people think God has to change the Laws of Nature {which He created} to hurry up creation when God lives outside of time, thus hes everywhere at once, in the past, present and future. 

There is much more proof of an Old Universe/Earth than just light. 

God would have to change the Laws of Nature just to get the earth to cool off in 6000 years, it takes much longer than that. God doesn't need to hurry anything up. They can't seem to understand the bible is nuanced in many ways. We have to use belief co-mingled with logic. That same process tells us why the Jews had to bury their dung, God knew about microscopic germs, men learned about them in the 1800's or so, but now we know why, even though they probably didn't understand it back then. 

God bless brother, I will be praying for you. God is our healer.....

Thanks for the prayers, Bro!

I have generally been in the so-called "gap" theory camp when it comes to Genesis.   Specifically regarding Genesis 1:2 where the text should more literally read... "and the earth BECAME without form and void".   Not a gap theory of an idea that the days of creation were epochs or ages.   Just that there was a created earth that, for some reason, became corrupted so that the Lord had to rebuild it.  And the entire universe was affected at the same time.  And the time interval between the first letter of Genesis 1:1 and the earth becoming void in Genesis 1:2 is up for grabs with nothing substantive we can lay  hands on to affirm a particular time frame.

I have been of the persuasion that there was some cataclysmic event that took the earth from its original created state.   Be that the angelic rebellion led by Satan or some other event.   There seems to be hints of this in other parts of scripture.  Nothing definitive, but hints.  Evidently the Lord did not feel it important enough for us to focus and spend excessive amounts of time on.

The six days of creation commonly referred to are susequent to that cataclysmic event.  

I don't make it a major point to argue about, but I do believe that given the dynamic dimensionality of the known universe, and that the creator is several dimensions beyond that, we are peering into history with a 4 dimensional mindset and trying to understand and explain something that we have such a myopic view of.  

All we can do is trust.   

Edited February 17, 2020 by OldCoot

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So you're going to base a rebuttal on paragraphs? 

I'm done.

I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Lol, you were done before we started. And, no, I am not basing my rebuttal on paragraphs, I am basing it on the Word of God which clearly shows two different ways, you were without a doubt, wrong. It's no wonder that you can't see a pre tribulation rapture. I highly advise that you change translations. Secondly, didn't you make note that the animals were loaded onto the ark 3 different times, in the verses we were discussing? Do you think that happened or do you think more information was given about the same event? Do you think that the earth flooded 4 different times or do you think more information was being given. Hence, paragraphs are important.

 

 

[JohnD]

Jesus comes to meet the raptured spirits of men and women IN THE AIR  (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

but his second coming to Earth is when his FOOT TOUCHES DOWN on the

Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4).

Big difference.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, The Light said:

Lol, you were done before we started. And, no, I am not basing my rebuttal on paragraphs, I am basing it on the Word of God which clearly shows two different ways, you were without a doubt, wrong. It's no wonder that you can't see a pre tribulation rapture. I highly advise that you change translations. Secondly, didn't you make note that the animals were loaded onto the ark 3 different times, in the verses we were discussing? Do you think that happened or do you think more information was given about the same event? Do you think that the earth flooded 4 different times or do you think more information was being given. Hence, paragraphs are important.

 

 

Like I said, I'm out and we'll all know soon enough.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, JohnD said:

Jesus comes to meet the raptured spirits of men and women IN THE AIR  (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

but his second coming to Earth is when his FOOT TOUCHES DOWN on the

Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4).

Big difference.

And it's not possible for those two events to occur on the same day. 

These can only happen 7 years apart, it's a cosmic law or something. 

[Diaste]

On 2/16/2020 at 4:22 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

You get HUNG UP on the Two Comings just like you can't see the Rapture, you are too worried semantics to see the puzzle brother, thats my point. You are too worried about two coming to understand that Jesus already came back in John chapter 20, him telling Mary TOUCH ME NOT for I have not yet ascended to the Father, then 8 days later telling Thomas to TOUCH HIS WOUNDS prove he took the Sacrifice to the Father and Sprinkled his blood ONCE AND FOR ALL, then returned to earth and allowed Thomas to touch him. The Two Coming are about the two Advents, the Suffering Servant and the Conquering King, there is no two comings, that's a made up thought of people who miss the big picture, there are TWO ADVENTS, the Church Returns at the Second Advent ON EARTH with Jesus, before that Jesus CALL US to go be with him in Heaven Rev 14 he Harvests us from a Cloud !! Hes ON A CLOUD and THRUSTS in the Sickle, its as plain as day. 

The Bible was written for the Jews, the Church was an insertion by God because of Israel's disobedience.  Why did Paul call the RAPTURE a Mystery or Secret if its the SAME END TIME Stories the Jews had always been hearing about ? In Zechariah and in Daniel 12 etc. etc. etc. ? But the BIG PICTURE together brother, its because the Rapture is of the Church, God already married Israel, they must REPENT and accept their Messiah. We have ALREADY REPENTED but we have to go Marry the Lamb !! The Marriage of the Church to the Lamb has nothing to do with Israel, save a few of the Jews will be its first leaders and there will be a few Messianic Jews along the way, for the most part then Jews are BLINDED until the time of the Gentiles {Church} is come full, we know this cant mean Rev. 11 42 months, because it wouldn't be called 42 months then would it ? The TIME of the Gentiles is the Church Age Mantle God TOOK from Israel and GAVE to the Gentiles, go REREAD Rom. chapters 9-11, its all about God doing what He will at the POTTERS WHEEL, He gave the Mantle to the Gentiles and BLINDED Israel !! The Time of the Gentiles is the 2000 some odd year Church age, it has NOTHING to do with the 42 month period, NOR CAN IT, because it wouldn't be called 42 months otherwise !! 

Since the Rapture is not about Israel, then the Bible says almost nothing on it via the Prophets of Old !! Paul said its a Mystery. Musterion means Secret by Gods Silence. God was not telling Israel about a Rapture because God knew they would still be on the earth for the most part, they have to repent for their sins via the 70 weeks prophecy and ACCEPT their Messiah. We the Church have already accepted Jesus as our Savior. You are looking for a record of something in a Hebrew book, that God is not going to deal with the Hebrews in that manner, for the most part Jews do not accept Christ, so God gave them Prophesies about what is going to happen unto them, in Zechariah chapters 12, 13 and 14. In Ezekiel 38 and 39, in Daniel 11 and 12, in the book of Revelation, if and when the except Jesus they will then understand they must flee Judea via Matt. 24 etc. etc. But the Churches job is finished, we will be in Heaven, even though its only spoken about vaguely in the bible, the Rapture was given unto us by Paul {and Jesus} some 2000 years ago. We can see the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened in Rev. 4 and 5, we see then in Rev. 7 also, and in Rev. 19 we return with Jesus Amen.

I can give many New Testament scriptures that point to a Rapture of the Church if need be, and a few Old Testament inferences also. 

It should have read....from reading Rev. 12:17.....No one reading that passage can deny THIS POINT:

That there is NO WAY anybody can deny that point, that Jews on earth can't be the Remnant THE REMNANT described there. The Remnant as described in Rev. ch.23 can only be the Gentiles. 

You not being able to understand something is not a fantasy, frankly, a 5 year old could understand this point, I have seen people that pretend not to understand things when they have been defeated in a debate before. Its easier to make a quip than to try to REBUT.... Mr UNREBUTABLE !!  

The WOMAN is Israel. Abraham is Israel !! You see how you butchered that ?  

I just explained why it CAN NOT BE the Jews....its simple facts, its not a complex theory brother.  The Remnant can only be the Gentile Church. Its not even complex. The only thing that's complex is it destroys your narrative on the Church not being already in Heaven at this time. 

Once again, the Woman {Fleeing Jews are PROTECTED and the 2/3 who do not flee will Perish AND they do not have the Testimony of Jesus, you know exactly what the point is here.......but if the Remnant is the Gentile Church it proves all the post tribers are in error !! So............

Sure it does.................and you guys know it, which is why you guys have to avoid this chapter.

I know more about Prophecy than most anyone you have ever met.....I even scare myself sometimes, I have to pinch myself !!! 

It's not that I don't understand. I reject your conclusions. I don't approach the facts from the conclusion as Pretrib does. I find facts and let them form the conclusion. 

Pretrib bases all it's propaganda on a false premise; 70th week equals God's wrath. If that's true then yes, a pretrib rapture is the only logical conclusion. But it's not true that the 70th week equals God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb. Ergo, a pretrib rapture is false. 

This false equivalency is lens through which Pretrib examines eschatology, specifically the 2nd coming and the gathering. The result is steaming heap of incoherent story lines. Unjustified overlaps, magical appearances, dangerous additions and subtractions, assumptions, guesses, even outright fabrications; all presented as factual truths.

So present a single verse from scripture, with chapter and verse, explicitly stating that the 70th week is the wrath of God and the Lamb and I'll get in the boat with you. Not through logical gymnastics, not implied, don't draw a single inference, explicit; or the doctrine fails.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's not that I don't understand. I reject your conclusions. I don't approach the facts from the conclusion as Pretrib does. I find facts and let them form the conclusion. 

Pretrib bases all it's propaganda on a false premise; 70th week equals God's wrath. If that's true then yes, a pretrib rapture is the only logical conclusion. But it's not true that the 70th week equals God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb. Ergo, a pretrib rapture is false. 

This false equivalency is lens through which Pretrib examines eschatology, specifically the 2nd coming and the gathering. The result is steaming heap of incoherent story lines. Unjustified overlaps, magical appearances, dangerous additions and subtractions, assumptions, guesses, even outright fabrications; all presented as factual truths.

So present a single verse from scripture, with chapter and verse, explicitly stating that the 70th week is the wrath of God and the Lamb and I'll get in the boat with you. Not through logical gymnastics, not implied, don't draw a single inference, explicit; or the doctrine fails.

A wrong conclusion by you, the 70th week has nothing to do per se with God's Wrath, its really about Israel's repentance and judgment. God's Wrath only comes at the mid way point, so I guess its a portion of the 70th week, but God's Wrath is not what the 70th week is about per se.

You just aren't capable of seeing it. Its clearly there in the bible. Your mind is made up this it fogs your judgment on said events, its otherwise known as tunnel vision. I prove it in each post. Just like the REMNANT has to be the Gentile Church. It can't be denied.

[choir loft]

On 2/8/2020 at 8:53 AM, Diaste said:

Nope.

The main events in Matt 24 reads thus:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

If those days had not been cut short, (Days of GT are cut short) nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call,

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is the only gathering explicitly stated in Scripture. It's only AFTER the A of D and great tribulation. There isn't one before this. Only one. No matter how hard you try unjustified rationalization, fear based and disobedient, will never change that fact. 

Best get ready. The beast comes first and he's coming for us. Isn't it great? The most powerful enemy ever to tread the earth; arrayed to battle an unarmed opponent, and yet our victory is already won. Is there anything more glorious?

Man, you are all over the place with misconceptions and misinterpretations.  You are using scripture to support religious slogans and buzz words - pure hokum.

To point out just one of the major difficulties you are having with interpretation, I need to rectify your definition of THE BEAST.    I refer the readers here to Revelation 13 where the beast and its primary horn, or leader is featured.

THE BEAST is not a man.    

That's something cooked up by Christian novelists and people who haven't read the Bible.   A prophetic beast always indicates a system, organization or nation.  The horn of the beast in Revelation 13 is a man, or more properly an office held by a man who in turn is an officer within the confines of a religious system.

Revelation makes it perfectly clear the Beast is a religious system.   Rev 13:1 says the Beast rises out of the sea.   What's the sea?  The Bible interprets itself in Revelation 17:15 “The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues."  The Beast is a religious system that arises out of a massive number of people.  Got it? 

The small horn that rises out of the beast is the Pope.   In Revelation 13:6 is stated that the Beast would open its mouth and utter blaspheme against God.   To be guilty of Blaspheme one must claim to be God.   The Roman Catholic church has officially stated that the Pope is God on earth.  Therefore the Catholic church commits blaspheme when it claims the Pope is God.  The very words of anti-Christ as predicted by the Bible two thousand years ago.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”

In verse 13:3 is stated that one of the heads of the beast would suffer a mortal wound, while later in verse 12 the mortal head wound is healed.

In 1798, the army of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and put him in prison where he died two years later.  All the Catholic real estate in Rome was confiscated. <-- fatal wound

In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was commissioned by Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.  The treaty restored 110 acres of real estate in Rome as Vatican City and made it a sovereign city-state.  The Pope was restored to his religious office of leadership of all Roman Catholics worldwide (the sea of people).  <--- the fatal head wound of the anti-Christ was healed.  

There's a great deal more correction to be made to your post, but this is by way of fixing a little of it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited February 18, 2020 by choir loft

[The Light]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

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It's not that I don't understand. I reject your conclusions. I don't approach the facts from the conclusion as Pretrib does. I find facts and let them form the conclusion. 

Having dealt with you recently, I don't think this is true at all. I presented undeniable facts of the scripture that prove that Noah was on the ark 7 days before the flood. It appears to me that your mind is already made up on things despite what the word says. You will never learn the truth if you reject the truth.

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Pretrib bases all it's propaganda on a false premise; 70th week equals God's wrath.

I totally agree with your conclusion that the wrath of God does not take place during the 70th week of Daniel.

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If that's true then yes, a pretrib rapture is the only logical conclusion.

It's not true. God's wrath does NOT take place during the 70th week of Daniel.

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But it's not true that the 70th week equals God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb.

You are 100% correct.

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Ergo,a pretrib rapture is false.

You are 100% wrong. You are drawing an incorrect conclusion. Just because we can prove that the wrath of God does not take place in the 70th week of Daniel, that does not prove that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. In other words, just because the standard pretrib model is wrong by putting the wrath of God in the 70th week, that does not mean they are wrong about a pretribulation rapture.

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This false equivalency is lens through which Pretrib examines eschatology, specifically the 2nd coming and the gathering. The result is steaming heap of incoherent story lines. Unjustified overlaps, magical appearances, dangerous additions and subtractions, assumptions, guesses, even outright fabrications; all presented as factual truths.

You are correct in understanding that the second coming is NOT the gathering. And yes, the standard pretrib model is absolutely incorrect in their assumption. Again, that does not mean that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. All it mean is that they are wrong about the second coming being the gathering. All things need to be examined. When we can prove that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, and you reject, you have shown that you are guilty of the very thing that you are accusing pretribers for in your statement.

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So present a single verse from scripture, with chapter and verse, explicitly stating that the 70th week is the wrath of God and the Lamb and I'll get in the boat with you.

Sorry, we can prove that the wrath of God does not occur in the 70th week of Daniel. However, that does not prove there will not be a pretrib rapture.

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Not through logical gymnastics, not implied, don't draw a single inference, explicit; or the doctrine fails.

So you have proven that the wrath of God is not in the 70th week of Daniel. That does not prove the fallacy of the pretrib rapture, it only proves that the standard pretrib model is wrong. Just as the word proves that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, that does not prove a pretrib rapture. It's just one of the many pieces of the puzzle that lead to the truth.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 2/16/2020 at 8:00 AM, The Light said:

Conclusion - The word clearly shows that Noah was instructed to enter the ark. He entered, and then the animals came unto him. Seven days later the flood waters were up the earth. We can prove that Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark in one day. And that day was 7 days before the flood.

You can believe what the word says or you can grab the subject from a previous paragraph and create baloney. The problem is that the Word already proves that the baloney that you create is false.

 

Hi Light,

Let's look at Gen 6. (Using the NASB)

In verse 13-22.....God says that the earth is filled with violence, and He is about to destroy the inhabitants....... Noah...go and make an ark. Verse 18....and you shall enter the ark.....you shall bring two of every kind of animal......take some food....thus Noah did all that God commanded of him. 

These few verses....6:13-22....covers a period of about 100 years. 

Since there were no chapter breaks.....(but for the sake of finding which verses I'm referring to we'll use them)......the next verse states  that the Lord said to Noah...."Enter the ark, take with you animals and such....and after 7 more days I will send rain for 40 days/nights. (chapter 7: 1-5)

chapter 7 verse 6....Noah was 600 yrs old when the flood of water came upon the earth.....THEN Noah and crew entered the ark.....and with them the animals.

verse 10....after 7 days, the water of flood came upon the earth 

So....Chapter 7:1 says for Noah to enter the ark, and in 7 days I will send rain.....then in Chapter 7:verse 6......Noah was 600 yrs old wen the flood came upon the earth, THEN Noah entered the ark because of the flood........ and carrying on to verse 10, after 7 days that the water of the flood came upon the earth.

verse 11......In the 600th year of Noah's life, in the 2nd month, on the 17th day......on the SAME DAY all the fountains of the great deep burst open.....the rain fell upon the earth for 40 days/nights.................... ON THE VERY SAME DAY, Noah and crew entered the ark, they and all the animals with them.......and the Lord closed it behind him. 

verse 17....THEN the flood came upon the earth for 4o days....

I have read this many many times. Chapter 7, verses 1 - 10 tells of the happenings around the ark...what was going on, etc. The narrative goes back and forth. 

Chapter 7 verses 11-16.....gives an exact time frame of all that was happening from the previous verses. The year, the month and the day.....on the SAME DAY, the fountains burst open......on the SAME DAY Noah and company entered the ark, and God closed them in. THEN the flood came upon the earth....

This is the concluding statement. The SAME DAY is when all was completed. The animals were loaded, the food was loaded, Noah and company boarded.

I will have to agree with Diaste on this. I can see it no other way.