VULTURES and a CORPSE.... Matt 24:28

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Wow. That's...painful. Seriously. You really believe that?

That's a violation of many concepts and even feels like a character attack. 

.....

Shalom, again, Diaste.

Very quickly, as I'm out of time, I had to address this point: YES! I WHOLEHEARTEDLY believe that! There's no violation, because GOD FEELS THAT WAY, TOO! If one feels this is a "character attack," well, if the shoe fits ....

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Well, that's part of it. WHEN they asked, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" they asked Yeshua` as soon as they could after He said what He said about the Temple!

The Olivet Discourse is seen in ALL THREE synoptic Gospels! 

Luke 21:5-7 (KJV)

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 

6 "As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

7 And they asked him, saying,

"Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

To what else could "these things" refer?! You can't just throw all of what Yeshua` said in His response under the "DISTANT FUTURE" bus! He handled the NEAR FUTURE, TOO! You've got to understand that! Denying it is futile ... and short-sighted. By doing so, you've limited your understanding of the Olivet Discourse! Consequently, everything you conclude about the Olivet Discourse is SUSPECT! One cannot rely upon or trust your conclusions, and that makes them dangerous and false!

No. The problem is it all surrounds the return of Jesus. Since that has not happened yet, the Olivet Discourse is all future. Mankind tend to liken current events in the interim to the prophetic utterance. While that's a common reaction I don't see it as prudent. We must view it as comprehensive, part of the whole. This partial fulfillment idea seems lacking in more ways than one.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That's desperation talking. They asked this IMMEDIATELY AFTER Yeshua` said what He said about the Temple!

That's not true. No time frame is given. It could have been a week later. You WANT it to be immediately. It could be, but you cannot prove from the gospels.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I'm convinced of this definition because it is so used in Scripture, particularly Matthew 1.

I actually agree with you on this definition; however, you're not taking this definition to its ultimate conclusions in light of Matthew 1. Think of the time line in terms of black and white, where "black" represents the periods of when the "potential generation" did what was evil in God's sight, and the "white" represents the periods of when the "generation" did what was right in God's sight.

In Matthew 1, there were fourteen such generations from David the king until the carrying away into Babylon. The black periods were not counted. Instead, only the white periods were counted to make the 14, although the whole period consisted of both the white periods and the black periods.

Context, context, context; The three most important techniques of interpretation and understanding. We aren't looking at a succession of generations in Matt 24:34. The word is 'this' and it's an absolute referring to what immediately precedes the subject. That ain't Matt 1, it's the whole of the people alive at the time from Matt 24:4-50

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You REALLY don't know what you're talking about! Do you really think that Yeshua` looked at the Temple, His Father's House that He zealously defended, as a "cold, stone edifice when God was gone from that place for centuries before its destruction"?! I think you're going to have to eat those words when you face Yeshua`!

As Ricky Ricardo was known to say, "Lucy, you've got some splainin' to do!"

I don't believe I do. If the Temple was so important why did Almighty God allow it to be destroyed? And the veil was rent. The time of the Temple was over and it was over long before the rending of the veil and it's destruction. And you forsake the truth in favor of personal doctrine. It was always Jesus Christ from the moment of creation, the faith of Abraham, the Exodus, the Wandering, the Promised Land.  And what of this? "

6  For you desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. - Hosea 6

16  For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. - Psalm 51

6  In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. - Psalm 40

7  Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me: I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.” - Psalm 40

11  “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats.

12  “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts?

13  Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

14  Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

15  When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

16  Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. - Isaiah 1

21 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.  But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ - Jeremiah 7

So you see, the liturgy was nothing from the beginning. It was always the relationship and not burnt offerings and blood. This was only a picture of what Jesus had already planned from the foundation of the world.

How was Noah saved if there was no Temple to scatter blood and burn flesh? Abraham believed and he was considered righteous. Yes, Jesus did throw out the money changers. But what of it? The Glory of God left the Temple centuries before. God no longer was there. Without knowing for sure I would say His act was more example of the zeal for justice than protecting the integrity of an edifice.

And you know what? I have a ready answer for my position and will gladly present my argument before the Throne. I'm ready. Are you?

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Oh, really?! Please read Hebrews 9-11! What was the point of Yeshua`s death splitting the veil of the Temple in two?

The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

I guess that just about sums it up.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I think you mean "40 years prior."

Oops! Correct. Dang senior moments.

[Retrobyter]

On 3/19/2020 at 10:15 AM, Diaste said:

No. The problem is it all surrounds the return of Jesus. Since that has not happened yet, the Olivet Discourse is all future. Mankind tend to liken current events in the interim to the prophetic utterance. While that's a common reaction I don't see it as prudent. We must view it as comprehensive, part of the whole. This partial fulfillment idea seems lacking in more ways than one.

Shalom, Diaste.

That is your TAKE on the Olivet Discourse. Actually, you DON'T know that it "all surrounds the return of Jesus"!

Let's do this: Let's look at the Greek of all three Gospels of the initial questions by the disciples. First, wouldn't you agree that it would be WEIRD for someone to be asked a question about tomorrow and give an answer about five years from now, particularly for the righteous Son of God?

Here are the verses in the Greek that contain those questions:

Matthew 24:3 (KJV)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

3 Katheemenou de autou epi tou orous toon Elaioon proseelthon autoo hoi matheetai kat' idian legontes,

"Eipe heemin, pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion tees sees parousias kai sunteleias tou aioonos;"

3 Katheemenou = 3 Sitting
de = but
autou = of-Him
epi = upon
tou = the
orous = mountain/mount
toon = of-the
Elaioon = Olives
proseelthon = they asked
autoo = to/from-Him
hoi = the
matheetai = disciples/students
kat' = down
idian = privately
legontes, = saying,
"Eipe = "(You)-tell
heemin, = to-us,
pote = when/at-what-time
tauta = these-things
estai, = shall-be,
kai = and
ti = what [shall-be]
to = the
seemeion = sign/indication
tees = of-the
sees = of-your
parousias = presence/coming
kai = and
sunteleias = of-end
tou = of-the
aioonos;" = age?"

Mark 13:3-4 (KJV)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 

4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

3 Kai katheemenou autou eis to oros toon Elaioon katenanti tou hierou, epeeroota auton kat' idian Petros kai Iakoobos kai Iooannees kai Andreas,

4 "Eipon heemin, pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta sunteleisthai panta;"

3 Kai = 3 And/Also
katheemenou = sitting
autou = of-Him
eis = into
to = the
oros = mountain/mount
toon = of-the
Elaioon = Olives
katenanti = opposite
tou = of-the
hierou, = Temple,
epeeroota = they-questioned
auton = to-Him
kat' = down
idian = privately
Petros = Peter
kai = and/also
Iakoobos = Jacob (James)
kai = and/also
Iooannees = Joannes (John)
kai = and/also
Andreas, = Andrew,

4 "Eipon = 4 "(They)-tell
heemin, = to-us,
pote = when/at-what-time
tauta = these-things
estai, = shall-be,
kai = and/also
ti = what [shall-be]
to = the
seemeion = sign/indication
hotan = when/whenever
mellee = are-about-to-[be]
tauta = these-things
sunteleisthai = finished/ended/accomplished
panta;" = all?"

Luke 21:7 (KJV)

7 And they asked him, saying,

"Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

7 Epeerooteesan de auton legontes,

"Didaskale, pote oun tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta ginesthai;"

7 Epeerooteesan = 7 They-asked
de = but
auton = to-Him
legontes, = saying,
"Didaskale, = "Teacher,
pote =when/at-what-time
oun = then
tauta = these-things
estai, = shall-be,
kai = and/also
ti = what [shall-be]
to = the
seemeion = sign/indication
hotan = when/whenever
mellee = are-about-to
tauta = these-things
ginesthai;" = become/come-into-being/happen?"

The questions are VERY SIMILAR in the Greek, even though the translation is quite different. Look at certain phrases: "pote tauta ... estai" are in all three, with Luke adding the word "oun." "kai ti to seemeion" is also in all three.

Markus adds that the four leaders, Peter, James, John, and Andrew, the two sets of brothers, came to Him with their questions. (The others were probably pushing them to ask!)

Lukas adds that they began by addressing Him as "Didaskale," "Teacher."

Thus, all three accounts say, "when these-things shall-be" and "and what [shall be] the sign," OR "when shall these things be" and "and what shall be the sign...?"

Mattityahuw remembers that they added, "tees sees parousias kai sunteleias tou aioonos;" or "of-the of-your presence/coming and of-end of-the age?" or "of your coming and of [the] end of the age?"

Markus remembers (or was told that Peter remembered) that they said, "hotan mellee tauta sunteleisthai panta;" or "when/whenever are-about-to-[be] these-things finished/ended/accomplished all?" or "when(ever) these things are all about to be finished? 

And,

Lukas records the general consensus that they said, "hotan mellee tauta ginesthai;" or "when/whenever are-about-to these-things become/come-into-being/happen?" or "when(ever) these things are about to happen?"

All three are correct! One has no precedence over the others, for ALL THREE are recorded as God's Word, verified and supported by the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God)

Therefore, they all fit together and are all true! And, in reverse order of when they appear seems to be the best fit: First, they asked "what shall be the sign" "when these things are about to happen" and then "when these things are all about to be finished" and then "of your coming and of the end of the age?" FOUR independent clauses (Matthew giving two)!

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That's not true. No time frame is given. It could have been a week later. You WANT it to be immediately. It could be, but you cannot prove from the gospels.

Actually, I can. It's called a "squeeze play":

First, we're already into the Passion Week. We know this because John told us that Yeshua` came to Bethany "6 days before the passover came" (John 12:1). We are also told by John in John 19:31 that the day of the preparation was when Yeshua` died. He also mentioned that the Passover, also called a Shabbat, was a "high day." That is, not falling on the actual weekly Shabbat, it was an EXTRA Shabbat ("Sabbath"), "day of rest." 

Furthermore, Mattityahuw ("Matthew") told us that Yeshua` said, like Yonah, He would be in the heart of the earth for "three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40). This is BACKWARD by Jewish reckoning because the evenings came BEFORE the mornings in Jewish counting, and we know that the children of Israel counted any portion of a day or of a night as the whole day or the whole night, respectively. This is why the Jewish day begins at sundown with the sighting of the first three stars.

We know that Yeshua` was resurrected sometime in the night of the first day of the week (after sundown on Saturday) because John told us in John 20:1 that Yeshua` was already gone when the women came to the tomb "The first day of the week ... when it was yet dark." Counting backward, the 3rd night would be Saturday sundown until Yeshua` was resurrected. The 3rd day would be Saturday daylight. The 2nd night would be Friday sundown to Saturday sunup. The 2nd day would be Friday daylight. The 1st night would be Thursday sundown to Friday sunup, and the 1st day would therefore be Thursday daylight. Since Yeshua` died at about 3 p.m., Thursday would be the Day of Preparation, making Friday the Passover. "Six days before the Passover" would put it on the previous Shabbat.

Thus, the presentation of Yeshua` as the Messiah of God to be Israel's King, the "Triumphal Entry" (Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:28-40; John 12:12-19), was on the next day, the first day of the week, yowm rish'own, called "Palm Sunday." He drove out the money changers from the Temple (Matthew 21:12-13) on the second day, yowm shaanayim, according to Mark 11: 

Matthew 21:1-11 (KJV)

1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, 2 Saying unto them,

"Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. 3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, 'The Lord hath need of them'; and straightway he will send them."

4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5 "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, 7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. 8  And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.

9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying,

"Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest."

10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying,

"Who is this?"

11 And the multitude said,

"This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."

Mark 11:1-11 (KJV)

1 And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples, 2 And saith unto them,

"Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him. 3 And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither."

4 And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him. 5 And certain of them that stood there said unto them,

"What do ye, loosing the colt?"

6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go. 7 And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. 8 And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way. 9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying,

"Hosanna (Greek word that transliterates the Hebrew phrase "Howshiy`aah naa'" meaning "Rescue-us now"); Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest."

11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

That ended Sunday, the first day of the week, yowm rish'own.

Mark 11:12-14 (KJV)

12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: 13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14 And Jesus answered and said unto it,

"No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever."

And his disciples heard it.

Then, we read in Mark 11:15-19:

Mark 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17 And he taught, saying unto them,

"Is it not written, 'My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer?' but ye have made it a den of thieves!" 

18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

19And when even was come, he went out of the city.

This corresponds to Matthew 21:12-17:

Matthew 21:12-17 (KJV)

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them,

"It is written, 'My house shall be called the house of prayer'; but ye have made it a den of thieves!"

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them. 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying,

"Hosanna to the Son of David";

they were sore displeased, 16 And said unto him,

"Hearest thou what these say?"

And Jesus saith unto them,

"Yea (YES); have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?"

17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.

That concluded Monday, the second day of the week, yowm shaanayim.

Tuesday morning, the third day of the week, yowm shlishiym, having had cursed the fig tree that bore no fruit when He was hungry the day before, the disciples noticed that the fig tree was already withered.

Mark 11:20-26 (KJV)

20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him,

"Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."  

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them,

"Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

This corresponds to Matthew 21:18-22: 

Matthew 21:18-22 (KJV)

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it,

"Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever."

And presently the fig tree withered away. 20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying,

"How soon is the fig tree withered away!"

21 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."

Then, in Matthew 26, after the woes upon the scribes and P'rushiym, and His pronouncement of "desolation" upon them (Matt. 23), and the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24 & 25), we read...

Matthew 26:1-2 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples, 

2 "Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified."

This was said no later than two days before Wednesday sundown to Thursday sunup, when Yeshua` was betrayed in the garden and brought before the Sanhedrin and the Roman courts the night and morning before the crucifixion, or Tuesday morning. This is the squeeze play: It HAD to occur on Monday when He was given the tour of the buildings AND gave the Olivet Discourse.

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Context, context, context; The three most important techniques of interpretation and understanding.

Well, there's context and then there's context! As you can see from the context above, one CAN determine that the questions the disciples posed WERE INDEED related to what Yeshua` said about the Temple! One shouldn't just limit one's "context" to the other verses in a single chapter. All three books, and even four, ARE the context for all that Yeshua` said during His first advent.

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We aren't looking at a succession of generations in Matt 24:34. The word is 'this' and it's an absolute referring to what immediately precedes the subject. That ain't Matt 1, it's the whole of the people alive at the time from Matt 24:4-50.

Well, I agree with you! However, don't limit "the whole of the people alive at the time" to some people in the future from our perspective! The "whole of the people" INCLUDES the people in the First Century A.D!

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I don't believe I do. If the Temple was so important why did Almighty God allow it to be destroyed? And the veil was rent. The time of the Temple was over and it was over long before the rending of the veil and it's destruction. And you forsake the truth in favor of personal doctrine. It was always Jesus Christ from the moment of creation, the faith of Abraham, the Exodus, the Wandering, the Promised Land.  And what of this? 

6  For you desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. - Hosea 6

16  For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. - Psalm 51

6  In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. - Psalm 40

7  Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me: I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.” - Psalm 40

11  “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats.

12  “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts?

13  Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

14  Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

15  When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

16  Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. - Isaiah 1

21 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.  But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ - Jeremiah 7

So you see, the liturgy was nothing from the beginning. It was always the relationship and not burnt offerings and blood. This was only a picture of what Jesus had already planned from the foundation of the world.

How was Noah saved if there was no Temple to scatter blood and burn flesh? Abraham believed and he was considered righteous. Yes, Jesus did throw out the money changers. But what of it? The Glory of God left the Temple centuries before. God no longer was there. Without knowing for sure I would say His act was more example of the zeal for justice than protecting the integrity of an edifice.

And you know what? I have a ready answer for my position and will gladly present my argument before the Throne. I'm ready. Are you?

The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

I guess that just about sums it up.

Well, you're right, but you're still wrong. While it IS all about a relationship with YHWH Elohiym, whom most only know as "God" or the "Lord God," seldom even writing "LORD God," it's THROUGH the Sacrifice that there can even BE a relationship with YHWH Elohiym!

When God looks at an individual, if there is no sacrifice covering the sins of that person, then God can only see the sin and cannot have fellowship with that individual.

And, while it is the Messiah Yeshua`s Sacrifice that makes the real difference, animal sacrifices have been made since God made coats of animal skins right after the Fall! There have ALWAYS been altars upon which those animal sacrifices, representing the Eternal Sacrifice, were made. It's the Sacrifice that makes the "trading places" possible (2 Corinthians 5:21). Oh, and it's not about "clearing one's conscience." It's about making one RIGHTEOUS before God!

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (in the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God who Himself has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ (in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message about exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (for the Messiah), as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (we ask you on behalf of the Messiah), be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (in the Messiah).

And, THAT'S the exchange. He, in spite of His righteousness (or God's righteousness within Him), BECAME "sin" for us. As such, God poured out His wrath on "sin" when He poured out His wrath upon the Messiah when He hung on the cross. And, the other half of the exchange is that we, in spite of our sins, instead BECAME "His righteousness," when we trusted God to justify us.

[Retrobyter]

On 3/9/2020 at 12:48 PM, Sister said:

Hello Retrobyter

The two passages of scriptures do go together because when the second woe sounds which is the killing of the two witnesses, the third woe comes "quickly".  The third woe is the Coming.  It comes "quickly".  In Matthew Jesus is speaking about his Coming, and the eagles are gathered there around the carcass before he comes.

I quote again;

Matthew 24:28   For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Matthew 24:29   Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What comes first?

The eagles gathered around the carcass or Christ's appearing?

What does the Word say?

 

Shalom, Sister.

You've misunderstood me. The VULTURES gathered around the carcass (eagles are not generally scavengers) in the First Century A.D. You see, what Diaste doesn't understand is that Yeshua` NOT ONLY talked about His Second Coming, but He also talked about the WHOLE range of tribulation they were going to face, starting with the Jews' persecution of the believers and the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Furthermore, the "tribulation" that He speaks about is over the WHOLE period of 2,000 years, not just a mere 7 years or even a "great tribulation" of 3.5 years. This nonsense was invented by Darby, who equated the 70th Seven of Daniel 9 with this period of "tribulation" about which Yeshua` spoke. However, it is CLEAR, by virtue of both Hebrew and English grammar, that the 70th Seven is about the MESSIAH YESHUA` (JESUS the CHRIST), not some "Antichrist" dude referred to as "the prince that shall come."

So, in answer to your question, it is UNDOUBTEDLY the VULTURES gathered around the carcass that comes first. Yeshua` hasn't returned, yet! However, these events are separated by some 2,000 years, more or less!