The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[not an echo]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

20 hours ago, not an echo said:

My desire would certainly be to be able to agree rather than to disagree, but I am unable.  As I see it, there is a quite natural flow in the chronology of The Revelation as I have put it forth.  The statement of those left behind, "For the great day of His wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17) is very true.  It (and the celestial phenomena that occurs at this time) is in perfect harmony with Joel's prophecy quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:20).  What the people are calling "the great day of His wrath,"  Joel calls "that great and notable day of the Lord" (Acts 2:20), or "the great and the terrible day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31).  Concerning this day, the cry of those left behind, "and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17) also parallels with Joel's words, "and who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11).  By definition, the Day of the Lord is a period of destruction and wrath (Isa. 13:6, 9).  So, when destruction follows the beginning of this period (e.g., with the sounding of the trumpets), as I see it, we can rightly interpret this as some of the wrath of God.  I am not sure what else it could be called.  What would you call it?  As I have stated, I see this time of the Day of the Lord as being a time of wrath, wrath, and more wrath, with lulls, kind of like with a hurricane.  A difference with the seven vials is that there will be no lulls, or not of any significance anyway.

Concerning your position that none of God's wrath begins until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet---and by this, making a hard connection with the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet---makes for a lot more problems than it solves, if I am understanding you correctly.  Where would you have the 5th Trumpet being sounded in relation to the seals?  Are you not seeing this trumpet of "woe" (Rev. 9:1-12) as being some of God's wrath?  And, similarly with the 6th Trumpet of "woe" (Rev. 9:13-11:14).  Whatever you are seeing with the 6th Seal/7th Trumpet, something must be done with the 5th and 6th Trumpets, not to mention the first four, which I certainly see as also being some of the wrath of God.  I was asked a little bit back about providing a chart of how I see things, which I did.  Maybe I could understand a little better what you are seeing if I saw a chart of it.  Have you ever worked up a chart, and if so, could you post it, or direct me to where you have provided it before.

The issue is one of: What is wrath? I'm going to get into that other than to say; when the scripture says wrath has come, or wrath is about to fall, or wrath is executed, that's wrath. Since none of the seals or trumps are called wrath or even implied, I cannot interpret them to be wrath. And since it is quite clear there is a time when wrath is come and the vials are labeled as the wrath of God, this presents clear evidence of what and where wrath occurs and also refutes all other claims.

I agree that the 5th and 6th are pretty terrible but just because they are does not mean God's wrath is released. Every time the wrath of God is released the object of that wrath is destroyed utterly.

In the 5th and 6th trump it's not that way. One prepares an army that kills a third of mankind and the other is a plague.  

"Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

Both the 5th and 6th trump are goads toward repentance. So both can seamlessly fit in to the last half of the week before the 6th seal and 7th trump. And the big thing? They are not labeled as God's wrath. 

Hello Diaste,

I've got to try to keep it short tonight, but I would like to comment on some things.  For me, I don't believe we have to see God's wrath labeled as wrath to recognize it as wrath.  Similarly with God's grace.  Do we have to have God's grace labeled as such to recognize it as such?  Does everything have to be spelled out?

Concerning  "Every time the wrath of God is released the object of that wrath is destroyed utterly," is this indeed the case with all seven vials of God's wrath? (Rev. 16:1-21).  When things are destroyed, like with the sounding of the 2nd Trumpet (Rev. 8:8-9), how much more destroyed do things have to be destroyed to be utterly destroyed?  Or, when people are killed, like after the sounding of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-21), how much more do they have to be killed for them to be utterly killed?  When "the third part of men" are killed by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone" (9:18), how much will they have to be burnt to be considered utterly burnt?  As I asked before, if this is not some of God's wrath, what term do you think would be a more appropriate term for what it is?

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

Quote

From another angle, I am seeing the Day of the Lord as being a period of time, that begins when the 7th Seal is opened.  Very importantly, I see this as occurring the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, which makes the cry of those left behind true indeed (Rev. 6:17).   Of course, I also see this period of time as including the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath---when it's time.  One thing I have tried to figure from what you have said, is just when you are actually seeing the wrath of God beginning in relation to what you have said concerning Revelation 11:18?  Are you seeing the 1st Vial of God's wrath being poured out immediately after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

Immediately or a half an hour, or whatever, I don't know. The point is unless wrath begins twice then Revelation isn't strictly chronological concerning the 7's. And it can't be strictly chronological. If every mention of 42 months or 1260 was chronological it adds up to more than 7 years. That means in this case it's not a strict chronology.

If you look again at what I am saying concerning the chronology of chapters 11-20, these chapters have some overlapping or repeated information, but still continue or progress in a strict chronological order.  The repeated time frames of Daniel's 70th Week do not all need to be added up.  In other words, the seven year period of the 70th Week is made up of only two 3-1/2 year periods.  Just because these periods are mentioned more than 3 or 4 times, it would be an error to add them all up.

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

I do believe that I can safely say that we will not be able to see things similarly until what we are seeing rests on the same foundation, and that foundation for me is the first three verses of The Revelation.  I don't believe I have yet seen your comments on this.

Sure. There is a lot in those 3 verses. What do you mean specifically?

Simply put, on the basis of the wording of the opening three verses of The Revelation, Christians, even is John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for some of its prophecies to begin to be fulfilled.  As I see it, this is foundational.  Some "things" were "at hand" to begin "to come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3).  And, some things really begin to open up when these words are truly regarded.

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

A very big difference in how I am seeing things is the following:  I don't believe the seals have anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but rather the era of the Church, of which we are a part.  I see the rapture as happening with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Further, I also don't see the first five trumpets as having anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but what will happen towards a stage reset for Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see Daniel's 70th Week beginning until after the "little book" is seen "open" in Rev. 10.  More specifically, I don't see any evidence of Daniel's 70th Week actually having begun until Rev. 11:1-3, during the time of the 6th Trumpet period.  I see II Thess. 2:4 as being a little bit of a commentary, if you will, on Rev. 11:1---something I think everyone needs to look at closer.  I believe by these few comments that you can see that I am seeing things somewhat differently than those who hold to the common pre-trib view.

I have heard this before: "I don't believe the seals have anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but rather the era of the Church, of which we are a part." I see no biblical justification for this. It's great you see it that way but what's the proof? You think Jesus or the Gospel is the rider of the white horse in the 1st seal? 

The 5th seal is 2000+ years of history? The 6th seal? Wrath has come and the people of earth call for avalanches to fall on them? Is this a yearly occurrence? Has it happened even once? And what of the cosmic signs of His coming? Have the heavenly bodies been extinguished? 

No, I by no means "think Jesus or the Gospel is the rider of the white horse in the 1st seal."  Rather, I see the horseman of this seal as being akin to "that spirit of antichrist" that John spoke of in I John 4:1-3, of which he says, "and even now already is it in the world."  I have a thread I started in early April entitled, "The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse" that I would encourage you to look at my opening post of.  I also have a thread entitled "The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs" that I would encourage you to consider.  And, concerning the 6th Seal, I stated in my above post that you replied to that "I see the rapture as happening with the opening of the 6th Seal."  So, whereas I see all the seals as pertaining to the era of the Church, I only see the first four as having been opened late in the first century.  According to the wording of the 5th Seal (especially the words, "How long..."/Rev. 6:10) I see it as being opened much later, and I can easily see it as being already open.  I do not see the 6th Seal as ever having been opened.  Rather, I believe its opening is imminent, as is Christ's return for the rapture of the Church, as I have stated.  And, because I see the 7th Seal being opened on the same day as the 6th Seal, this means all the seals relate to the era of the Church, which will continue until the day Christ returns for it---which could be today, or even tonight. 

Got to go...

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

Simply put, on the basis of the wording of the opening three verses of The Revelation, Christians, even is John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for some of its prophecies to begin to be fulfilled.  As I see it, this is foundational.  Some "things" were "at hand" to begin "to come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3).  And, some things really begin to open up when these words are truly regarded.

I thought that's what you were suggesting. The Greek is 'dei en ginomai'. Literally "It is necessary within the emergence". 

The term 'en' which is translated 'shortly'(I don't know why) means "in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within)." 

It doesn't denote a beginning or a time frame and just says these things happen, now doubt quickly, inside the prophecy. It's true they happen 'shortly' but only within the prophecy. I don't see the word 'en' as a catalyst for 1st century origins of fulfillment. Mainly because if these things occur 'inside the realm' and are a 'condition or conditions extant inside' the prophecy, then they all must occur in at least 3.5 years and at most 7 years.

I used to use the argument of relative time when debating atheists and I think in some cases it's appropriate. Here it's obvious in the Greek 'shortly' doesn't mean 'soon' and relative time isn't a valid argument.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

No, I by no means "think Jesus or the Gospel is the rider of the white horse in the 1st seal."  Rather, I see the horseman of this seal as being akin to "that spirit of antichrist" that John spoke of in I John 4:1-3, of which he says, "and even now already is it in the world."  I have a thread I started in early April entitled, "The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse" that I would encourage you to look at my opening post of.  I also have a thread entitled "The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs" that I would encourage you to consider.  And, concerning the 6th Seal, I stated in my above post that you replied to that "I see the rapture as happening with the opening of the 6th Seal."  So, whereas I see all the seals as pertaining to the era of the Church, I only see the first four as having been opened late in the first century.  According to the wording of the 5th Seal (especially the words, "How long..."/Rev. 6:10) I see it as being opened much later, and I can easily see it as being already open.  I do not see the 6th Seal as ever having been opened.  Rather, I believe its opening is imminent, as is Christ's return for the rapture of the Church, as I have stated.  And, because I see the 7th Seal being opened on the same day as the 6th Seal, this means all the seals relate to the era of the Church, which will continue until the day Christ returns for it---which could be today, or even tonight.

I do believe I have read the OPs you created in regards to Revelation. It's interesting you see the 1st seal as the 'spirit of antichrist', it's a new one for me. I have never been positive about the meaning of the 1st seal. It's sort of an interpretation by elimination for me. It looks like it can only be the end time beast when all other evidence is weighed. Mainly how the described events, people, conditions, etc., are set to manifest within the prophecy truths outside the sphere of the prophecy are eliminated and by default then the rider of the white horse revealed by the 1st seal is the beast.

I think the specifics of 'en' above refute any other interpretation of the 'when' of the opening of the seals. The first verse is, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants..." Defines the realm or sphere which then limits the entire prophecy to "the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within)." which as we know is either 3.5 years in the mind of some, or 7 years by the interpretation of others.

 

 

 

[The Light]

On 3/9/2020 at 12:06 AM, DeighAnn said:

I personally don't believe the seals are PUT FORTH in chronological order.  

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

It is "one of the seals",  it doesn't say first.   

 

The seals are in chronological order. It may not say first, but it does say, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. So by process of elimination we can know that when he opened one of the seals, it WAS the first.

REV 6

³ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

 

⁵ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

 

⁷ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

 

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 8

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

 

[not an echo]

On 5/19/2020 at 6:55 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/18/2020 at 11:37 PM, not an echo said:

Simply put, on the basis of the wording of the opening three verses of The Revelation, Christians, even is John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for some of its prophecies to begin to be fulfilled.  As I see it, this is foundational.  Some "things" were "at hand" to begin "to come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3).  And, some things really begin to open up when these words are truly regarded.

I thought that's what you were suggesting. The Greek is 'dei en ginomai'. Literally "It is necessary within the emergence". 

The term 'en' which is translated 'shortly'(I don't know why) means "in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within)." 

It doesn't denote a beginning or a time frame and just says these things happen, now doubt quickly, inside the prophecy. It's true they happen 'shortly' but only within the prophecy. I don't see the word 'en' as a catalyst for 1st century origins of fulfillment. Mainly because if these things occur 'inside the realm' and are a 'condition or conditions extant inside' the prophecy, then they all must occur in at least 3.5 years and at most 7 years.

I used to use the argument of relative time when debating atheists and I think in some cases it's appropriate. Here it's obvious in the Greek 'shortly' doesn't mean 'soon' and relative time isn't a valid argument.

Hi Diaste,

Actually the Greek is 'dei ginomai en tachos' and concerning "The term 'en' which is translated 'shortly'(I don't know why)",  it is the preposition 'en' combined with 'tachos' that is translated as "shortly" (Rev. 1:1).  I would be interested in seeing you rewrite verse one using the words that you see as being more correct.  Also, don't forget that it is not verse one alone, but the first three verses that I see as being the foundation upon which an interpretation of The Revelation must be built.

Revelation 1:

  1   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;  and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

  2   Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

  3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:  for the them is at hand.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hi Diaste,

Actually the Greek is 'dei ginomai en tachos' and concerning "The term 'en' which is translated 'shortly'(I don't know why)," it is the preposition 'en' combined with 'tachos' that is translated as "shortly" (Rev. 1:1).  I would be interested in seeing you rewrite verse one using the words that you see as being more correct.  Also, don't forget that it is not verse one alone, but the first three verses that I see as being the foundation upon which an interpretation of The Revelation must be built.

Revelation 1:

  1   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;  and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

  2   Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

  3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:  for the them is at hand.

While true it still doesn't change the idea to be outside the context of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. When taken as a singular and complete work in and of itself, which is appropriate, the prophecy must take place within a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7. If, as you contend, it began 'immediately' why only a partial immediateness? It's all the same prophecy. It's an unbroken foretelling of the end of age from chapter 1-22, and it's also clear it's 7 years max duration. 

I don't see where it can be justified to begin the prophecy 2000 years ago partially fulfilling the seals with a large time gap between the 5th and 6th seal, when the duration of the prophecy is contained in the prophecy.

Seems I need to consult the Greek NT a bit more. So thanks for that.

In my view the prophecy must be taken as a whole and all in the prophecy must stay within the prophecy. In that case:

" δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, " or 'dei ginomai en taxos' is literally, 'what is necessary to emerge within quickly'. It's true 'en taxos' is combined into 'shortly' as 'en' is a prefix, but even though 'taxos' could be translated 'immediately' it's mitigated by the preposition 'en' and tells us it's 'immediately within'. This is why the KJV says 'shortly'. Not wrong just not the whole story. 

Taxos:  swiftness (speed), i.e. done as quickly (speedily) as is appropriate to the particular situation.

That situation being the Revelation of Jesus Christ as verse 1 states.

Since we must remain in proximity to the entire prophecy 'must shortly come to pass' is 'what is necessary to begin to emerge within the realm of the Revelation and that will occur without necessary delay'.

The immediacy here is not from when the prophecy was given, it's the speed at which the events unfold within the prophecy all in the singular duration of 7 years maximum.

 

 

 

 

[The Light]

On 3/12/2020 at 12:22 AM, not an echo said:

Our difference, I believe, stems in part from our differing interpretations of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  I believe Jesus' Discourse can be rightly divided into three sections.  From a bird's-eye view, I see the opening section as pertaining to the era of the Church, the central section as pertaining to Daniel's 70th Week, and the closing section as pertaining to the Rapture of the Church, which will end what is commonly called the Church Age and will occur before the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.  My view of this is consistent with all three accounts (Matt. 24, Mk. 13, and Lk. 21).

Coming in a little closer, I would divide the accounts thus:

THE OPENING SECTION---Matt. 24:4-14;  Mk. 13:5-13;  Lk. 21:8-19 (Concerns the era of the Church)

THE CENTRAL SECTION---Matt. 24:15-28;  Mk. 13:14-23;  Lk. 21:20-24 (Concerns Daniel's 70th Week)

THE CLOSING SECTION---Matt. 24:29-51;  Mk. 13:24-37;  Lk. 21:25-36 (Concerns the Rapture of the Church)

Coming in even closer now, for more of a bug's-eye  view, I see the the opening section as pertaining to the era of the Church, which will end before the manifestation of the "abomination of desolation" (e.g., Matt. 24:15).  I see the central section as pertaining to Last Day's Israelites and Daniel's 70th Week, which will end with CHRIST'S SECOND COMING and the Battle of Armageddon (e.g., Matt. 24:27-28).  Finally, I see the closing section as pertaining to the event that will come between the Church Age and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, the day of CHRIST'S SIGN RETURN and the Rapture of the Church (e.g., Matt. 24:29-31ff).

Hey Not an Echo,

Just wondering why you (and many others) think that Matt 4-14 is about the Church age. Jesus is asked a direct question.  Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled

Mark 13

 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

² And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

³ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

⁴ Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Everyone seems to think that the destruction of Temple was the fulfillment of there not being one stone upon another. How is that possible, when there are many stones still one upon another. Secondly, look at the question. What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? The question is what is the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? WHAT THINGS. The destruction of the Temple and there not being one stone upon another. SO, HAS THE SIGN WHEN ALL THESE THING SHALL BE FULFILLED HAPPENED YET? No there has been no sign that the Temple has been destroyed and there is not one stone upon another.

The point is there is no church age being discussed in Matt. Matt 4-14 is also happening during the 70th week. The beginning of sorrows is THE 1ST 4 SEALS. The seals, 1 thru 6, are the 70th week. After the 70th week, the wrath of God begins

So when the disciples ask when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age, Jesus answers. He does not give them a history lesson about what happens for the next 2000 years. He answers the question about the destruction of the Temple and all the stones being cast down and the sign of His coming at the end.

Quote

As is known, those who hold to the common pre-trib view believe that there will be two phases to Christ's return.  As can be seen, I BELIEVE THIS TOO, as I see Jesus speaking of both phases right in the middle of His discourse.  Of course, everyone sees Matt. 24:27 as pertaining to Christ's Second Coming.  But, is this the same event of which He speaks three verses later, in verse 30?  There He says, "And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven."  To me, these differing statements do not sound like different angles on the same event.  The word sign denotes something far different than the substance of His coming for every eye to see as depicted in verses 26-27.  My point is, why would Jesus use the word SIGN in connection with this event, when His SUBSTANCE will be right before everyone! 

Exactly. Why does Jesus use the word sign when everyone will see Him in the clouds at His coming? The answer is because Jesus will already have come for His Church 7 years before this coming. It will be a secret rapture where Jesus does not reveal Himself and the voice of the turtle is heard in the land.

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

However, the sign of His coming will be revealed.

Luke 17

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Quote

 

 I am just seeing verses 29-35 as pertaining to the rapture as well!  And, the other accounts are consistent with this.

Verses 29-35 do pertain to A rapture. It is not the rapture of the Church. They will already be in heaven before the 70th week of Daniel begins. BEFORE ANY SEALS ARE OPENED.

The rapture that you see is a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church will be coming with the Lord when he returns for the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. The nation of Israel will remain on earth in a place of protection as their blindness will not have been removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pre trib rapture. So that rapture that you see when the Lord comes in verses 29-35 is about the rapture from the earth of the 12 tribes that are not in the nation of Israel. Those 12 tribes across the earth will understand that the sign of His coming has already happened when the pretrib rapture occurs for the Gentiles. That rapture is likely to happen on Pentecost, the early summer wheat harvest.

Quote

One more thing before signing off for the night:  According to Matthew's account, just before Jesus began His Olivet Discourse, the disciples had asked Him, "Tell us, when shall these things be?  and what shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, and of the end of the world?" (Matt. 24:3).  By this, they were as much as asking Him, "What shall be THE SIGN OF THY SECOND COMING?"  In reply, He reveals to them many things, but the only time He uses the definite article the with the singular word sign is in verse 30.  Now, it may seem kind of odd that Jesus would indicate that before His Second Coming He is going to make a Sign Return.  Odd, until it is realized that at His Sign Return, He is coming to get something before He returns later to stay!  And, what is that?  Look afresh at the verse that follows, verse 31---"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Exactly.

Edited May 22, 2020 by The Light

[douggg]

On 5/10/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

Hello again Diaste (and all),

I'm just not understanding what you are seeing as a difficulty here.  Borrowing from your own words, it is right there in black and white.  After the 6th Seal is opened, in Revelation 6, it reads:

 15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:

 17  For the great day of His WRATH is come;  and who shall be able to stand?

Although what happens here is separated by chapter seven from the opening of the 7th Seal and the sounding of the trumpets, this chapter is clearly just an interlude relating to what John sees after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal.  Because there is no time frame given relating to the subsequent opening of the 7th Seal, scripturally it can be opened the same day, and I believe that it is.  Likewise with the sounding of the first four trumpets.  So, the destruction that happens with the sounding of these trumpets joins hard with the WRATH that "is come."  And, I don't see it this way simply because those left behind are saying that His wrath is come.  Isaiah 13:6-11 speaks to this, especially in verse nine:   

  9   Behold, the Day of the LORD cometh, CRUEL both with WRATH and FIERCE ANGER, to lay the land desolate:  and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Interestingly, it is quite evident that some land is going to lay desolate after the sounding of the the first four trumpets.  Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, aren't you even seeing a convergence of Rev. 11:18 with Rev. 6:17 because of the same use of the phrase "wrath is come"?  What then is your own difficulty seeing the destruction stemming from the trumpets as being part of the wrath of God?  From another angle, are you seeing the seven vials of wrath as representing all the wrath that God has?  Diaste, in all honesty, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's instruction to Timothy that he charge some "that they strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).

Consider all the arsenal of the United States military.  If our battleships begin to shell a rogue nation, the inhabitants of that land could rightly say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  Later, if during a news broadcast, we see that our military has rained cruise missiles upon that land, we could as appropriately say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  And then, even later, if we dropped 7 nuclear bombs on that land, a more full impact of our nation's wrath would be realized.  But, even then, the full extent of our wrath capabilities would not be known.  I have tried to see where you are coming from, and I do to an extent.  I hope you are seeing where I am coming from.

I perhaps made a poor choice of words here.  When we are trying to rightly divide the Word, it takes some study, or work.  Like putting a puzzle together can sometimes be difficult, especially when it comes to some of those blue sky pieces!  Some pieces look so similar that it can be easy to be mistaken.  So Diaste, if we were sitting at a table together, working on a 1000 piece puzzle, I might say to you that I don't think that piece you are showing me goes where you are trying to put it.  And, I can see you taking issue.  But, I would still like you, a little bit anyway. 

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.  I may just be too tired.

First of all, in light of the first three verses of The Revelation, which is foundational to our correct understanding, I cannot see there being a 2000 year disconnect between what was "at hand" to begin to "come to pass" and the first thing that rightly goes into this category finally taking place.

And Diaste, in some respects, it isn't quite the same thing that has been happening for the past 2000 years as it was prior.  For the past 2000 years we have had the Church active in the world, with the power conferred to us on the Day of Pentecost.  There has been a battle all this time, and often it has raged, between us who are a part of Christ's Church and the principalities---the powers---the rulers of the darkness of this world---and the spiritual wickedness in high places---that we have faced (Eph. 6:12).  It would have been easy for the Church to think that it would have had much more success than it has.  In other respects, it's just the same ole same ole, because it's the same Devil and his crew that has been at it throughout history.  In some respects, it's going to be the same ole same ole till Christ's Millennial Reign, and after that, some more of the same ole same ole till God shuts Satan down for eternity.  Now, we do know very well that during Daniel's 70th Week, Satan and his imps are going to continue to be active, and there's even going to be some beheading.  But, it's not like this is going to be some novel way to martyr those who are following God.  So really, I'm just not able to see where the weight of your argument lies.

Concerning the cry of the martyrs in Rev. 6:9-11, they ask what I see as a very telling question.  If these are martyrs of Daniel's 70th Week, as I believe you are taking it, why would they ask the question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"  However you cut it, if these are 70th Week martyrs, not much time will have passed.  If these are 70th Week martyrs, they will be in the company of many who did not see their killers come to judgment for decades, and none will have yet seen their killers meet their ultimate judgment.  Rather, I see these as Church era martyrs, who are being told that it will "yet be a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev. 6:11).  These words easily harmonize with Daniel's 70th Week (a little season!), and those who will be martyred during that time, which would mean that as that time draws nearer, so will the opening of this seal.  Because I see the time of the rapture as being imminent, and Daniel's 70th Week beginning not long thereafter, I have no problem seeing this seal as having already been opened.  As I have said similarly before, this leaves the 6th Seal, which I believe can be opened before I push Submit Reply.

I do hope you will look afresh at what I am seeing concerning the chronological order of The Revelation.  As I see things, it is going to be found to hold.

You guys process is wrong.    Start making a timeline chart.

Take the start of the 7 years, the confirmation of the covenant.      And the end of the 7 years, Jesus's return in Revelation  19, and Matthew 24:30b.     And work from both ends.      The sixth seal event and the world seeing Jesus is the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven.    It is down at the bottom of the chart.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

 

Exactly.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Please look at my chart, down at the bottom.   Just follow the red line.   The 1290 day timeframe is the tribulation of those days.   The part of the verse in blue is the sixth seal event.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by douggg

[The Light]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Please look at my chart, down at the bottom.   Just follow the red line.   The 1290 day timeframe is the tribulation of those days.   The part of the verse in blue is the sixth seal event.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Doug,

I guess we can agree about the day 1 confirmation of the covenant.

As for 1 Thes 5:3 they say peace and safety comment, you have it occurring at the beginning of the week. They actually say peace and safety just before the day of the Lord begins at the end of the week.

1 Thes 5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What happens is, they say peace and safety immediately after the tribulation of those days, only to be cast into the wrath of God. 

As for the daily sacrifice beginning on day 220, there is no guarantee that the Temple is cleansed on day 2520, therefore day 220 is not reliable as the sacrifice starting day.

As to the daily sacrifice stopped comment. The sacrifice is taken away on day 1185.

As to the transgression of desolation, that is the destruction of the Temple, ie, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. How can the abomination of desolation occur after the transgression of desolation? There will not be one stone upon another when the transgression of desolation occurs.

As to the revealed man of sin killed? I don't think the revealed man of sin will be killed. He has already been killed. Maybe this will help:

Rev 17

⁸ The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

⁹ And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

¹⁰ And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

¹¹ And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Rev 13

³ And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 13

¹² And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

As to the brought back to life now the beast comment, he was already the beast. The beast was and is not and yet is.

As to the abomination of desolation comment about it being day 1185. The Word of God says  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

As to the two witnesses appearing on Day 1. The two witnesses appear just before the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord happens immediately after the tribulation, just after the Lord returns at the 6th seal.

As to the rapture occurring before the transgression of desolation comment, the rapture of the Church will happen before the tribualtion, which is before the seals are opened. The tribulation is over before the wrath begins. See the 6th seal and Matt 24.

As to the 7th angel sounding on or before day 2520, the 7th angel will sound at the end of the wrath of God. The wrath of God begins on day 2520 and ends 1260 days later. When the angel blows the 7th trumpet Jesus has returned. Armageddon is over and the kingdoms of this world are the kingdoms of our Lord.

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As to the 1335 day great tribulation comment, The great tribulation is 45 days long. The difference of the abomination of desolation being set up on day 2475 and Jesus returning on day 2520.

As to the armies of Armageddon comment happening before day 2520, you are appointing God's people to wrath. Day 2520 happens with the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth. There is yet time, times and half a time remaining after day 2520.

As to the Jesus returns and casts the beast and false profit into the lake of fire, that happens 1260 days after the coming of Jesus on day 2520 for the gathering.

In summary, the tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel, the time of Jacobs trouble. The wrath of God occurs after the 70th week. The tribulation is about what happens to the Jews from beast and the wrath of God is what happens to the unbelievers by God. Totally separate time frames.

[douggg]

30 minutes ago, The Light said:

As for 1 Thes 5:3 they say peace and safety comment, you have it occurring at the beginning of the week. They actually say peace and safety just before the day of the Lord begins at the end of the week.

 

No-one is going to be saying peace and safety at the end of the week, at the height of the great tribulation.

 

The Day of the LOrd (which Paul calls the Day of Christ in 2Thesslaonians2) begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

That event will not happen until the middle part of the 70th week.       

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Jews and the world saying peace and safety is during the first half of the 70th week, because they will be thinking the Antichrist person is their long awaited messiah.     And that they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety.