The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[The Light]

2 minutes ago, douggg said:

I have already told you.    No one knows that person's identity right now.     When the person becomes leader of the EU, and is a Jew, over ten other leaders of the EU - then his identity will be known.

I must admit, I am totally flabbergasted, shocked, surprised, entering bewilderment.

I am now wondering if this is common. I wonder if He's LA Mad would know.

[Diaste]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:53 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning "the prophecy must take place within a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7," I don't see the seals as being part of Daniel's 70th Week, nor the first five trumpets.  Where are you seeing this?  I don't see any scriptural evidence of the 70th Week until Rev. 11:1-3.  What you are saying about "It's an unbroken foretelling of the end of age from chapter 1-22, and it's also clear it's 7 years max duration" is just not clear at all to me.  I know you're not, but it's kinda like you are making the whole of The Revelation about Daniel's 70th Week.  Consider: 

The account of Jesus' 1000 year reign occupies some six verses of Scripture (Rev. 20:1-6).  What is so hard about seeing the 2000 years of the era of the Church as occupying 34 verses of Scripture (Rev. 6:1-7:17)?

For one the bold above is not logic. It's a false equivalency. 

Two the 'church age' is a Darbyism. It doesn't exist in the Word. It was made up to help justify a doctrine Darby thought up while convalescing.

How does explicit language of 1000 years of Christ's reign on earth in any way prove "2000 years of church"? 

It's like saying, "Unicorns exist because there is no evidence they don't."

On 5/22/2020 at 10:53 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your last sentence, I don't see a large gap between the 5th and 6th Seals at all, but rather a small gap.  I see the martyrs cry, "How long, O Lord..." reflecting that a very significant amount of time has transpired, easily accounted for by the now 2000 years.  And, I see what was said to them, "that they should rest yet for a little season..." reflecting that as the time of Daniel's 70th Week (a little season!) draws closer, so will the opening of this seal.  And, because Daniel's 70th Week is ever drawing closer, I have no problem (at all) believing that the 5th Seal has been opened.  So, for me, I see the next event to take place as being the opening of the 6th Seal---which I believe can happen before I finish replying to you (and others) today.  Maybe He will!  I like that thought Diaste, as then we can sit as Christ's feet together and have our hearts burn within us as He explains to us everything that we had heretofore only seen through a glass darkly.  Even so come Lord Jesus! 

" I see the martyrs cry, "How long, O Lord..." reflecting that a very significant amount of time has transpired, easily accounted for by the now 2000 years."

How do you arrive at this? It could be true. No language appears to justify any length of time has transpired other than we know a prescribed length of time will transpire between the question and "until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."

This is just another logical fallacy. The burden of proof is one the one making the assertion. A person who says, "I believe it, now prove me wrong." engages in illogic. A premise for this doesn't exist or it's incorrect. But since proving a negative is notoriously difficult there is a sense of assurance for the claimant, not that he or she will be proven correct, but that they won't be proven incorrect. 

I'm more of the mind that evidence must exist to establish truth. If there is no evidence for a claim it's necessarily and automatically false. This is the case here with both 2000 years of 'church age' and a large time gap implied by, "How long, O Lord..."

[not an echo]

On 5/21/2020 at 3:47 PM, douggg said:

You guys process is wrong.    Start making a timeline chart.

Take the start of the 7 years, the confirmation of the covenant.      And the end of the 7 years, Jesus's return in Revelation  19, and Matthew 24:30b.     And work from both ends.      The sixth seal event and the world seeing Jesus is the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven.    It is down at the bottom of the chart.

 

Hello douggg,

Trying to do some catching up.  I hadn't forgot about you, it's just been a busy time, if you know what I mean.

First of all, your chart is just showing Daniel's 70th Week, and as I am understanding it, you have the first four seals as being part of that time.  Now, whereas this is the popular understanding, the way I see things, the first four seals were opened as early as late in the 1st Century, in accord with what history bears testimony to and what could be expected based upon what we are told in the opening three verses of The Revelation.  Consider afresh, from Revelation 1:

  1   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;  and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

  2   Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

  3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:  for the time is at hand.

To me, all in the family of God need to stop and look very, very closely at this and consider just what was at hand to begin to come to pass.  This introduction is so simple to be understood, yet it has continued to be complicated by efforts to explain it away.  Why would anyone even try to explain it away?  I think the problem is that it has been kinda overlooked for so long, and everyone has so mobilized themselves around the popular views, than no one can imagine that they have so missed it.  Perhaps I am wrong, but to me, it is in our face douggg.  And, it isn't going to be going away.  Again, verse three reads, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:  for the time is at hand."  I, for one, am going to keep this, and as other translations have it, "heed" and "take to heart" what is here said.

Further, we all know that there is a lot in the prophecy of The Revelation.  And we all know that for most any prophecy, there is the time when it will begin to be fulfilled.  According to my understanding, the prophecy was "at hand" to begin to be fulfilled---in John's day.  The Revelation is sandwiched in these words (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10).  So, whether the time frame of The Revelation's prophecy is only the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week, then the 1000 years of Christ's reign (so some), OR, the 2000 years of the Church era, then the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week, then the 1000 years of Christ's reign, the prophecy was at hand to begin to be fulfilled.  So, it should highly concern us what was about to begin to happen in John's day.  It is quite evident that Daniel's 70th Week did not begin then, as it still hasn't.  But, the era of the Church, or what has come to be called the Church Age did.  And, evidences that the opening of the first four seals and the going forth of the four horsemen did.  A hundred years of the era of the Church and the same activity.  Two hundred years of it, 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000+ years of it---and the same activity.  It's in our face, even today.  To me, it's like Wow!  Jesus, in the opening of His Olivet Discourse---which dovetails with the first four seals---could not have concisely expressed what it was going to be any better...in my humble opinion.

Also, you have the 6th Seal being opened 45 days??? before Christ's Second Coming and you are not showing the 7th Seal.  Where would you put the 7th Seal?  The opening of the 7th Seal is huge.  The Seven Sealed Book cannot be opened until it is removed.  It needs to be shown on your chart.   

[not an echo]

On 5/22/2020 at 9:02 PM, douggg said:

On 5/22/2020 at 11:53 AM, not an echo said:

 I don't see the seals as being part of Daniel's 70th Week, nor the first five trumpets.  Where are you seeing this? 

The first six seals cover the 7 year 70th week, start to ending- as the events in the seals are linear, as things get progressively worse, affecting the world as a whole.

 

Differently, as you are interpreting the seals, you have the events dispersed across history, more so in different time periods, like the dark ages, coming and going, and in different parts of the world.     But the seals don't indicate that - not an echo.       They are linear, getting progressively worse - as the 7 years advance.

Hey again douggg,

Where are you finding the evidence for the first six seals covering the 70th Week?  Also, I'm not seeing you mention anything about the 7th Seal.  I don't see the evidence of Daniel's 70th Week beginning until after the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" (a very big key!) in Revelation 10:2.  As I see it, the whole chapter of Revelation 10 revolves around the event of the little book of Daniel being at this time opened (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  It is after this, that we immediately---and for the first time---begin to see the hard evidences of Daniel's 70th Week beginning.  To me, douggg, it is right before our very eyes.

[douggg]

35 minutes ago, not an echo said:

First of all, your chart is just showing Daniel's 70th Week, and as I am understanding it, you have the first four seals as being part of that time.  Now, whereas this is the popular understanding, the way I see things, the first four seals were opened as early as late in the 1st Century, in accord with what history bears testimony to and what could be expected based upon what we are told in the opening three verses of The Revelation. 

The problem with your approach is that the seals get progressively worse - not spread across over 2000 years, in sporadic manner.

If you look at my chart, I place the riders as things get progressively worse during the seven years.

[douggg]

22 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Where are you finding the evidence for the first six seals covering the 70th Week? 

The rider on the white indicates messiah attributes.     He is given a crown, unlike the other riders.      The Antichrist function is to be King of Israel, perceived messiah by the Jews, for about 3 years before revealing that he is the man of sin - and not the messiah after all.     His claim to be God, causes war to break out, ending the false messianic age of peace and safety.

For the 2000 year period, the Olivet discourse addresses that period as the gospel is spread to the nations.     We  don't see that in Revelation 6.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Also, you have the 6th Seal being opened 45 days??? before Christ's Second Coming and you are not showing the 7th Seal.  Where would you put the 7th Seal?  The opening of the 7th Seal is huge.  The Seven Sealed Book cannot be opened until it is removed.  It needs to be shown on your chart. 

The 7th seal lists cataclysmic events to take place during the great tribulation.      Due to space limitations, and getting overly complex, I did not show all those numerous cataclysmic events during great tribulation.   What the chart can do for you is to give the critical path of major events from the beginning of the 7 years to the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns.   The more you look at it, the more simple and informative you will find it.

The one thing I did show, in regards to your query, was the 7th (and final) vial of God's wrath as the nations have gathered their armies at Armageddon.   Which I thought it was critical, that although the tribulation of those days (1290 days) was over (Matthew 24:29), the great tribulation (1335 days) was still in effect because of the 7th vial of God's wrath.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 5/22/2020 at 9:37 PM, douggg said:

On 5/22/2020 at 9:31 PM, The Light said:

Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture of the Church as the Church is already in heaven. It is however A rapture.

No, there is no translation of the living (rapture) in Matthew 24:31.      There is the resurrection of the dead bodies of the martyred tribulation saints (souls) gathered from heaven.

The Jews from the four winds of the earth, from out of the nations, will be in their earthly bodies, brought to the land of Israel.*

 

* corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28.   It is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to earth.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

One more thing for tonight douggg,

I just can't see this as you do.  To me, there are so many prophetic points of convergence between Matthew 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-27, Acts 2:20, I Thessalonians 4:13-5:3ff, and Revelation 6:12-7:17 that I can't see Matthew 24:31 as anything but the time of the rapture of the Church.

Note that I put Act 2:20 in bold.  In support of the references that I have listed is this much overlooked prophecy of Joel's appealed to by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  Not only does this prophecy concern God's pouring out of His Spirit upon the Church, it also points to the era of the Church, as it encompasses the time from its inauguration on the Day of Pentecost until its close, just before the Day of the Lord.  It is quite apparent that Joel's prophecy is precise to the very day of the beginning of the era of the Church.  Not so apparent is that it is also precise to the very day of its end, if what it says concerning the signs in the sun and the moon fits with the 6th Seal---and with everything else that fits with the 6th Seal---and it does!  Because the end of the era of the Church is marked by the rapture, Joel's prophecy, howbeit much overlooked, holds perhaps the most important key to unmistakably recognizing the time of this event, not only in connection with what Jesus said, but also in The Revelation.

Concerning the Jews being brought, or gathered to their homeland, Scripture speaks much to this, and there are solid evidences that indicate that they will be re-gathered to their homeland as they migrate there under the supervision of the Lord.  Consider Isaiah 11:11-12 (which relates to this) and then the verses which shortly follow:

 15  And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea;  and with His mighty wind shall He shake His hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

 16  And there shall be an highway for the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria;  like as it was to Israel in the day that He came up out of the land of Egypt.

Consider also from Isaiah 60:

  9   Surely the isles shall wait for Me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because He hath glorified thee.

And from Jeremiah 23:

  5   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

  6   In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:  and this is His name whereby He shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

  7   Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

  8   But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them;  and they shall dwell in their own land.

Consider also Isaiah 35:8-10, 49:22-23, 51:11, and Hosea 3:4-5.

While it is questionable what the need might be to suddenly re-gather the Israelites to their homeland---in a way that sounds like the rapture---it is certainly not hard to understand the need to gather the Church to Heaven in such a manner.

[not an echo]

56 minutes ago, douggg said:

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Also, you have the 6th Seal being opened 45 days??? before Christ's Second Coming and you are not showing the 7th Seal.  Where would you put the 7th Seal?  The opening of the 7th Seal is huge.  The Seven Sealed Book cannot be opened until it is removed.  It needs to be shown on your chart. 

The 7th seal lists cataclysmic events to take place during the great tribulation.      Due to space limitations, and getting overly complex, I did not show all those numerous cataclysmic events during great tribulation.   What the chart can do for you is to give the critical path of major events from the beginning of the 7 years to the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns.   The more you look at it, the more simple and informative you will find it.

The one thing I did show, in regards to your query, was the 7th (and final) vial of God's wrath as the nations have gathered their armies at Armageddon.   Which I thought it was critical, that although the tribulation of those days (1290 days) was over (Matthew 24:29), the great tribulation (1335 days) was still in effect because of the 7th vial of God's wrath.

 

 

Make that one more thing again for tonight, 

But you do show the Great Tribulation beginning 1290 days BEFORE the opening of the 6th Seal.  I'm kinda confused. 

Hey douggg (and everyone), hope you have a blessed Memorial Day.  We can certainly be thankful for all our servicemen and women that have gave the ultimate sacrifice to secure and preserve for us the liberties and blessings that we so often take for granted.  Tears in my eyes for those in the forum family and abroad that have lost their loved one(s) in this cause.

[douggg]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

While it is questionable what the need might be to suddenly re-gather the Israelites to their homeland---in a way that sounds like the rapture---it is certainly not hard to understand the need to gather the Church to Heaven in such a manner.

Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 It a gathering of the elect, by angels,  not a translation of the living by Jesus Himself.    There are two passages that directly indicate who are being gathered.

Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text, about bringing every single Jew back to the land of Israel.     None left in the nations.

Revelation 20:4-6 Resurrection (called a resurrection in the text) of martyred tribulation saints (their souls from heaven, them in Revelation 6, the fifth seal).