The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[Revelation Man]

On 3/8/2021 at 6:47 AM, Charlie744 said:

RM, once again, thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts.

It is clear we do not interpret Daniel 2 & 7 the same. Daniel mentions 4 kingdoms and the verses above tell us. The “little horn” is not another kingdom or beast he is “the little horn” who comes OUT of the 4th kingdom.  

I have been trying to discuss Daniel 2 to establish the “foundation” of His prophecies to come in the later chapters- 7, 8, 9 & 11. We can certainly interpret 2 on its own... no need for Revelation here! 

But we all see Daniel and other verses in the Bible differently... and that is ok because our different interpretations do NOT contradict or take away from our faith, trust and love for God!!!!! 

Best wishes always and thanks for the thoughts and responses, Charlie 

 

He mentions 5............the Little is the 5th, you not understanding this is on you brother. But that is the only way your Papacy thing works and your Israel has become the Church claim also. They are both going down bad rabbit holes brother. Most people aren't called to Prophecy, and even those who are don't really understand much of what is going on tbh. Its very complex.

God Bless

Edited March 10, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

He mentions 5............the Little is the 5th, you not understanding this is o n you brother. But that is the only way your Papacy thing works and your Israel has become the Church claim also. They are both going down bad rabbit holes brother. Most people aren't called to Prophecy, and even those who are don't really understand much of what is going on tbh. Its very complex.

God Bless

RM, in my last post to you I provided the actual verses in 2 and 7 that clearly STATE the number of the kingdoms to come... but you don't want to see them for yourself. If we were disagreeing on an "interpretation" I could understand but that is not the issue here. So, once again, please read this and only this and come to your own conclusion:

2:40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 

 

7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

7:8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

 Well, RM, please notice the word "finally" and "fourth" in 2:40 above.

Please see the word "fourth beast" in 7:7 above.

Please see the term "horn" and not "beast" in 7:8 above.

I don't think Daniel can make this any clearer.... Charlie

[Revelation Man]

On 3/8/2021 at 4:23 PM, Charlie744 said:

RM, in my last post to you I provided the actual verses in 2 and 7 that clearly STATE the number of the kingdoms to come... but you don't want to see them for yourself. If we were disagreeing on an "interpretation" I could understand but that is not the issue here. So, once again, please read this and only this and come to your own conclusion:

2:40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 

 

7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

7:8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

 Well, RM, please notice the word "finally" and "fourth" in 2:40 above.

Please see the word "fourth beast" in 7:7 above.

Please see the term "horn" and not "beast" in 7:8 above.

I don't think Daniel can make this any clearer.... Charlie

HE............Is DIFFERENT from the FRST..........That tells us the Anti-Christ Beast is DIFFERENT from the Rome Beast. Whether you ever get that or not isn't going to be my fault or God's fault you missed it, its going to be your fault for not reading Revelation..........

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

HE............Is DIFFERENT from the FRST..........That tells us the Anti-Christ Beast is DIFFERENT from the Rome Beast. Whether you ever get that or not isn't going to be my fault or God's fault you missed it, its going to be your fault for not reading Revelation..........

I was continuing my study on Daniel 11 and I came across what looked like an exact picture of your timeline on a site authored by Tim Schaaf.  I am not sure but he may have borrowed that from Stephen Bohr?

Any thoughts?  Charlie

[not an echo]

On 3/3/2021 at 3:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/2/2021 at 10:25 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Just been looking at some of my old threads and I'm kicking myself for not getting back to you on this back in October!

I certainly do not believe that anything relating to the 6th or 7th Seal has yet happened, but I can see how someone, at first glance, might mistake what I am saying.  Let me clarify a little.

First of all, look at my chart and notes at the top of this page.  This (as well as other posts I have made in this thread) will give you a better sense of how I am seeing things.

Basically, I see all the seals as representing what must take place before the Seven Sealed Book can be opened.  Like seven locks on a treasure chest, the contents of the chest cannot be observed until the seven locks are removed and the lid opened.  With the Seven Sealed Book, I believe very similarly, except, with each seal that is removed, something is said to occur.  For me, the most apparent take away from this is that the seals represent what will take place before the book is opened.  I do see the first five seals as being already open, the first four from as early as the first century.

Further, and something that has engaged my thinking for decades, is the thought that a fitting title for the Seven Sealed Book would be THE DAY OF THE LORD, for that is what this book is all about (Acts 2:20 with Rev. 6:12-17).  Be assured, I do not believe anything relating to the 6th Seal has yet occurred, nor the 7th Seal, nor the Day of the Lord.  Something very important to note is my understanding that the 6th Seal and the 7th Seal can be opened the same day.  From another angle, the same day that the rapture occurs (with the opening of the 6th Seal), the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6:17), because the 7th Seal will be opened the same day.  This means, the Day of the Lord will commence the same day that the rapture occurs (I Thess. 4:13-18 with 5:1-4ff).  When the implications of all this are understood in light of other scriptures, a lot of prophecy puzzle pieces come together and fit much better for me.  Much better.

As I think on the above, my mind goes to my wife's pregnancy with my only child.  There was the nine months of her pregnancy, and then there was the day he was born.  It would be quite normal to understand that the pregnancy did not end until the very day he was born.  Interestingly, before my son was actually born, my wife was still in the time of her pregnancy, even the morning of the day of the show (9-12-92).  We had known that the time of my son's birth was drawing very near, but we did not know that he would be born on this particular day.  At 8 a.m. all was well.  At 9 a.m. all was still well.  At 10 a.m., my wife was standing in the kitchen and water started streaming down her legs and puddling on the floor!  All of a sudden, all was not well!   Of course, we quickly put 2 & 2 together and realized her water had broke.  Though he had still not yet been born, because he would be born later that same day, it can truthfully be said that the day of my son had come!  Yet, when my wife's water broke, she was still in her pregnancy, howbeit, in the last of the last stages.  Like the era of the Church and the Day of the Lord, I see us in the last stages of the Church era---but the water has not yet broke, if you will.  I see that as happening the day the 6th Seal is removed.  And, that same day, the Day of the Lord will have come.  Just a little sidebar---I see the word "day" as representing a period of time, like the day of the computer.  Like the day of my son, it has continued for 28 years.  Like my day, or your day Diaste.  Concerning the Day of the Lord, I see it as continuing from the opening of the Seven Sealed Book through the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

With these things in mind, can I rightly suggest that my son was sealed in his mother's womb TILL HE WASN'T, and there is a distinct difference between the pregnancy side and the birth side?  Same as there is a distinct difference between the outside of the Seven Sealed Book and what is between its covers?  Same as there is a distinct difference between the era of the Church and the Day of the Lord?

I've got to stop for the night.  Pardon my reminiscing some and being so wordy.  But, I believe if you will think on it, you will find that the foregoing is pregnant with meaning...

Ah, childbirth. I have been an eyewitness. Near to the most amazing, wonderful thing I have ever seen, save a couple things. 

I never found the logic fitting when describing the opening of the seals and the book when it's said all the seals must be broken before the book is opened. 

Rev 5 describes a papyrus roll. It's not a book with pages and hardcovers sealed 7 times on the outside.

Rev 6 shows us a one to one relationship of seal/event. 

A papyrus roll or a scroll has the seals on the inside throughout the rolled up paper.

In ancient times words were written on a paper, it was rolled up then a wax seal applied. The process was repeated and many seals could be in a single scroll and preserved the important writings and scrolls. In this way it would be known if the scroll was altered if the seals were broken. 

This is what we are seeing in Rev 5-6. A papyrus roll sealed inside and as it's unrolled the seal are loosed to reveal what has been preserved. The text in Rev 6 does not lead us to a book with seven seals on the outside.

Hello Diaste,

Because I grew up with the KJV, I have long been used to it's translation of "a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  Of course, why the translators used the word "book" instead of "scroll" I do not know.  It is a question I believe we will be able to ask them one fine day.  But, if it is indeed a scroll, this would not impact my view.  For me, it's one of them things that is about as broad as it is long.

I know that there are different ideas floating around about the book or the scroll and how it is sealed.  Interestingly, I can think of no design that would impact how I am seeing things.  I have also wondered if we need to be supposing that what God was holding in His hand was after this design or that.  I mean, if John had said that God was holding a phone, would it be the old rotary type phone, a flip up phone, or a smartphone?  I would suppose that it would be a little higher order of a phone that what we are presently used to!  Likewise, I can imagine that of the scroll God was holding, it could be said, "Now that's a scroll!" 

Supposing it is a scroll, when the 1st Seal was opened, IF there was some roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw (Rev. 6:1-2).  I say IF because I have never really seen it depicting some roll out of the scroll.  But, perhaps that is what is happening.  I have always envisioned that the seals were only on the outside and that there could be no opening of the book or scroll until all the seals were removed.  But again, it matters not.

When the 2nd Seal was opened, if there was some more roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw then (Rev. 6:3-4).  When the 3rd Seal was opened, if there was some more roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw then (Rev. 6:5-6).  And so forth.  Whatever the design of the scroll, whatever the placement of the seals, what is beyond the 7th Seal would not be revealed until the 7th Seal is removed.

Call it consistency, call it hermeneutics, call it "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (II Tim. 2:15), anyway you cut it, we have a pattern in The Revelation that I see as Divine.  And, for all of the efforts to treat The Revelation otherwise, my understanding has been helped far greater the more I have regarded this pattern.  Very basically, take the first three verses of The Revelation (it's foundation) in the simplicity of its reading.  Next, take 1:19 in the simplicity of its reading:  "Write the things which thou hast seen, the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."  Then note...

There is a letter to "the church of Ephesus" and we see its contents (2:1-7).  Then, there is a letter to "the church in Smyrna" and we see it contents (2:8-11).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the seven churches in Asia.

Next, the 1st Seal of a Seven Sealed Book is opened and we see what happens (6:1-2).  Then, the 2nd Seal of the book is opened and we see what happens (6:3-4).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the seals.

Next, the 1st Trumpet of a series of Seven Trumpets is sounded and we see what happens (8:7).  Then, the 2nd Trumpet of the seven is sounded and we see what happens (8:8-9).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the trumpets.

Next, the 1st Vial of Seven Vials of God's Wrath is poured out and we see what happens (16:2).  Then, the 2nd Vial of the seven is poured out and we see what happens (16:3).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the vials.

As I see it Diaste, The Revelation is not only Divinely chronological, it is logical.  It is marvelous.  And, when the basics of the foregoing are seen, adhered to, and applied to what is revealed in The Revelation as a whole, it makes for an understanding that has helped me far more than any other.  I'm thinking that you probably have, but I would like to encourage you to look again at the OP of my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  I need to go and look at it again, myself.  The best I remember, it kinda got derailed.  But, I am comfortable with my faithfulness to Scripture (the important thing) in every post/reply that I made there.  My understanding of the chronology of The Revelation is different that anything I have found in print or the webworld---but much more simple.  I think of Ackham's Razor.  Got to go...

Edited March 11, 2021 by not an echo
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[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Because I grew up with the KJV, I have long been used to it's translation of "a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  Of course, why the translators used the word "book" instead of "scroll" I do not know.  It is a question I believe we will be able to ask them one fine day.  But, if it is indeed a scroll, this would not impact my view.  For me, it's one of them things that is about as broad as it is long.

I know that there are different ideas floating around about the book or the scroll and how it is sealed.  Interestingly, I can think of no design that would impact how I am seeing things.  I have also wondered if we need to be supposing that what God was holding in His hand was after this design or that.  I mean, if John had said that God was holding a phone, would it be the old rotary type phone, a flip up phone, or a smartphone?  I would suppose that it would be a little higher order of a phone that what we are presently used to!  Likewise, I can imagine that of the scroll God was holding, it could be said, "Now that's a scroll!" 

Supposing it is a scroll, when the 1st Seal was opened, IF there was some roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw (Rev. 6:1-2).  I say IF because I have never really seen it depicting some roll out of the scroll.  But, perhaps that is what is happening.  I have always envisioned that the seals were only on the outside and that there could be no opening of the book or scroll until all the seals were removed.  But again, it matters not.

When the 2nd Seal was opened, if there was some more roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw then (Rev. 6:3-4).  When the 3rd Seal was opened, if there was some more roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw then (Rev. 6:5-6).  And so forth.  Whatever the design of the scroll, whatever the placement of the seals, what is beyond the 7th Seal would not be revealed until the 7th Seal is removed.

Call it consistency, call it hermeneutics, call it "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (II Tim. 2:15), anyway you cut it, we have a pattern in The Revelation that I see as Divine.  And, for all of the efforts to treat The Revelation otherwise, my understanding has been helped far greater the more I have regarded this pattern.  Very basically, take the first three verses of The Revelation (it's foundation) in the simplicity of its reading.  Next, take 1:19 in the simplicity of its reading:  "Write the things which thou hast seen, the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."  Then note...

There is a letter to "the church of Ephesus" and we see its contents (2:1-7).  Then, there is a letter to "the church in Smyrna" and we see it contents (2:8-11).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the seven churches in Asia.

Next, the 1st Seal of a Seven Sealed Book is opened and we see what happens (6:1-2).  Then, the 2nd Seal of the book is opened and we see what happens (6:3-4).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the seals.

Next, the 1st Trumpet of a series of Seven Trumpets is sounded and we see what happens (8:7).  Then, the 2nd Trumpet of the seven is sounded and we see what happens (8:8-9).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the trumpets.

Next, the 1st Vial of Seven Vials of God's Wrath is poured out and we see what happens (16:2).  Then, the 2nd Vial of the seven is poured out and we see what happens (16:3).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the vials.

As I see it Diaste, The Revelation is not only Divinely chronological, it is logical.  It is marvelous.  And, when the basics of the foregoing are seen, adhered to, and applied to what is revealed in The Revelation as a whole, it makes for an understanding that has helped me far more than any other.  I'm thinking that you probably have, but I would like to encourage you to look again at the OP of my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  I need to go and look at it again, myself.  The best I remember, it kinda got derailed.  But, I am comfortable with my faithfulness to Scripture (the important thing) in every post/reply that I made there.  My understanding of the chronology of The Revelation is different that anything I have found in print or the webworld---but much more simple.  I think of Ackham's Razor.  Got to go...

I would agree that any set of whatever that is a numbered set is in order and in the case of the seals, trumps and vials in Rev they are in order and opened, sounded and poured out in order from 1-7.

Where I do not agree, and where there is no real justification for it, is that trumps must follow seals and can only ever follow after the 7th seal. 

I don't think it hard to see at all that the 7th trump and the 6th seal occur close together. 

A bit harder to see is the trumps and vials all occurring within the time period depicted by the 7 seals. Or I would say that the 7th seal is the final disposition, the culmination of all Revelation reveals and it's within that last seal all the vials are poured out.

 

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.- 7th seal

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake" - 7th Bowl

Above is a description of occurrences at both the 7th seal and the 7th bowl.

[Markie51]

For those interested, I made a comment regarding the rider of the "White Horse" on this forum. Original post was made by Charlie 744, I replied to on February 13, 2021.  I did not want to post a duplicate response.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 3/10/2021 at 10:38 PM, Charlie744 said:

I was continuing my study on Daniel 11 and I came across what looked like an exact picture of your timeline on a site authored by Tim Schaaf.  I am not sure but he may have borrowed that from Stephen Bohr?

Any thoughts?  Charlie

Never heard of either one, you have a link? Easier to link than me googling their names and having to go though lots of different things. 

 

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Never heard of either one, you have a link? Easier to link than me googling their names and having to go though lots of different things. 

 

I guess you can type in his name along with Daniel 11

[not an echo]

On 3/3/2021 at 3:52 AM, Diaste said:

There really isn't any proof seals have been opened and we are waiting on the 6th seal. I think this is a rationalization of pretrib to explain away the clear timing of the Return of Jesus and the gathering. 

Pretrib and others have finally come to the realization of the timing of the one and only gathering and must find a way to still remain pretribulational. So now they say some seals have been opened spritualizing seals 1-5 and spreading them out over millennia. 

In this way the tribulation still doesn't happen to them and all we are waiting on is Jesus and the gathering. That is not how it's going to happen. The beast is yet to rise. I'm pretty sure when the end begins we won't misunderstand nor will it be found in the obscurity of the distant past.

I fully understand that as you see it, "There really isn't any proof seals have been opened and we are waiting on the 6th seal."  Also, as far as I am aware, those that presently hold to the common pre-trib view see it as you do on this particular.  Most in that camp will presently still write me off because of the novelty of my interpretations.  However, I believe that in time, their view will be accepted less and less and what I have put forth will be accepted more and more.  We will see.  Now, I am not aware of any in the common, or orthodox pre-trib camp that are rationalizing as you are saying and for the reasons you are saying.  I have seen some hints at some things that are kinda similar to what I say, but it seems that those who end up going down that path do not remain pre-trib.  Further, I have seen nothing bordering the common view that is in the ballpark of being as complete, or systematic as what I have put forth in my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

I would like to stress that I have never sought to "remain pretribulational."  I would like to believe that we have this in common Diaste, that we are only interested in the truth of the matter.  To the credit of everyone who holds to the common pre-trib view, I have never felt that the reason had to do with a desire not to have to go through Daniel's 70th Week.  Conversely, to those who hold to the mid, post, pre-wrath, or any form of these, I have never felt that the reason had to do with wanting to be prepared for it when it came.  If it is so, no amount of believing it is not so will change things.  If it is not so, no amount of believing it will be so will change things.  Such thinking is futile.  We both know this.  Howbeit, it seems that atheists are convinced that if they continue to deny God's existence, maybe He will end up not existing.  Likewise futile.

But, I am kinda wondering:  For the individual, do you feel that it will be more dangerous to face the deception of what you see as the activity of the rider on the white horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the white horse?

For the individual, do you feel that it will be more painful to face the war(s) of what you see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the red horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the red horse?

For the individual, do you feel that it will be more difficult to face the poverty resulting from what you see as the activity of the rider on the black horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the black horse?

For the individual, do you feel that death by martyrdom will be worse from what you see as the activity of the rider on the pale horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the pale horse?

Said a different way, are you believing that the result and experience of one's being deceived after your concept of the 1st Seal being opened is going to be worse than being deceived by Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Wicca, or any of the myriad other cults and false doctrines that are presently in the world?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's being killed in the future war(s), after your concept of the 2nd Seal being opened, is going to be worse than that of a present day war (or any of the other wars since the first century)?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's poverty is going to be worse when it happens as a result of your concept of the 3rd Seal being opened than it has been as a result of all the famines, earthquakes, and pestilences that have occurred since the first century?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's being martyred is going to be worse when it happens after your concept of the 4th Seal being opened than it has been for those martyred heretofore?

Do you believe that the cry of a martyr for justice will be more impassioned after your concept of the 5th Seal being opened than it was for those martyred in some century prior?

And you know, we're talking about somewhat more than an individual.  We are talking about millions and millions and millions, since Christ spoke the words and John was given The Revelation.  As someone has rightly said, "Sometimes we don't realize that prophecy has been fulfilled till we look over our shoulders in retrospect."

Concerning, "The beast is yet to rise,"  I fully agree with you.

Concerning, "I'm pretty sure when the end begins we won't misunderstand nor will it be found in the obscurity of the distant past,"  I again agree.  We have much more than the "obscurity of the distant past."  We have all that has continued to happen from the distant past even to the very present here and now...which will continue until the day that the 6th Seal is opened.  And that could be today...

Edited March 14, 2021 by not an echo
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