Pre-Wrath Rapture

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Though out my studies of scripture I have come to the conclusion that we will be rapture'd at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) spoken of in revelations.  (1Co 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)   I dont associate the Tribulation as God's wrath.  God's wrath is what happens after the 7th Trumpet where he pours out the vials of his wrath on the those whom worshiped the beast.  Jesus said you will have tribulation in this world (meaning tribulation comes from this evil world and is not God's wrath) (Jhn 16:33 KJV - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.)  We are promised tribulation in this world, yet we are not appointed unto God's wrath.  These are two different things.  I do believe at the 7th Trumpet we will be raptured up to meet Yahshua in the clouds of heaven where we join him in the marriage supper of the Lamb, while the vials of wrath are being poured out on those whom chose to follow the beast.  Then afterward we will return with him to rule and reign on earth.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, JasonPerkins said:

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Though out my studies of scripture I have come to the conclusion that we will be rapture'd at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) spoken of in revelations.  (1Co 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.) 

1st point is the wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trump as proven by the scriptures.

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Secondly, the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, a Jewish harvest feast, the fall fruit harvest. This has nothing whatsoever to do with a trumpet judgment blown by an angel.

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 I dont associate the Tribulation as God's wrath.

That's good, because it's not.

 

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God's wrath is what happens after the 7th Trumpet where he pours out the vials of his wrath on the those whom worshiped the beast.

Gods wrath is over at the 7th trumpet as proven by the scriptures. The vials are just another view of the trumpets.

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  Jesus said you will have tribulation in this world (meaning tribulation comes from this evil world and is not God's wrath) (Jhn 16:33 KJV - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.)  We are promised tribulation in this world, yet we are not appointed unto God's wrath.

You are correct. However, I'm not sure why you don't see that the wrath of God is also the 7 trumpets and is over at the 7th trumpet.

 

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   I do believe at the 7th Trumpet we will be raptured up to meet Yahshua in the clouds of heaven where we join him in the marriage supper of the Lamb,

There will be no rapture at the 7th trumpet. The mystery of God is finished at the 7th trumpet. Jesus returns with his armies from heaven at the 7th trumpet. The Church will be raptured before the seals are opened, at the trump of God. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation. We see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. The scattered 12 tribes will be raptured at the 6th seal which is just another view of the coming of Jesus in Matt 24. This coming occurs at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

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 while the vials of wrath are being poured out on those whom chose to follow the beast. 

Vials of wrath? Trumpets? Just another view of the same thing.

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Then afterward we will return with him to rule and reign on earth.

Yes, the armies of heaven return after the vials are poured out. Just as they return at the 7th trumpet when the mystery of God is finished.

 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - Rev 11:18

At the 7th trump. Wrath begins at the 7th trump.

6 hours ago, The Light said:

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Okay. How is it this says it's over at this point? It seems the Greek here points to this as the lead in to the final phase and not an end to the plan. 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

There will be no rapture at the 7th trumpet. The mystery of God is finished at the 7th trumpet. Jesus returns with his armies from heaven at the 7th trumpet. The Church will be raptured before the seals are opened, at the trump of God. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation. We see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. The scattered 12 tribes will be raptured at the 6th seal which is just another view of the coming of Jesus in Matt 24. This coming occurs at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

This is mysterious to me. So the 7th trump isn't, or cannot be, the trump of God? The angels did receive the trumps from God in the first place. The 7th trump is all about our immortal sovereign. I'm pretty sure last trump, 7th trump, trump of God in the context of the end of the age are all the same. 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Agree with Diaste because right after the 7th Trumpet sounds it states:

[Rev 11:18 KJV] 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

God's wrath cannot be over at the 7th Trump, its the beginning of his wrath.  The vials of his wrath have not even started until chapters 15 and 16.  

[Rev 15:5-8 KJV] 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

 

 

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

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"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - Rev 11:18

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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At the 7th trump. Wrath begins at the 7th trump.

Wrath is over at the 7th trump even as it is over at the 7th vial.

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Okay. How is it this says it's over at this point? It seems the Greek here points to this as the lead in to the final phase and not an end to the plan. 

 

Finished, accomplished, completed. I'm not following what you are saying.

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This is mysterious to me. So the 7th trump isn't, or cannot be, the trump of God?

The trump of God is the voice of God.

Rev 1

¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

¹¹ Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:..........

Rev 4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Exo 19

¹⁶ And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

 

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The angels did receive the trumps from God in the first place. The 7th trump is all about our immortal sovereign. I'm pretty sure last trump, 7th trump, trump of God in the context of the end of the age are all the same. 

As noted, the trump of God is the voice of God. Additionally, the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, a Jewish harvest feast, the fall fruit harvest. The harvest that you see in Rev 14, with Jesus in the clouds, is the same as the harvest seen in the coming of Jesus is Rev 6 (The great multitude in Rev 7), which is the same coming that you see in Matt 24.

 

[The Light]

33 minutes ago, JasonPerkins said:

Agree with Diaste because right after the 7th Trumpet sounds it states:

[Rev 11:18 KJV] 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

God's wrath cannot be over at the 7th Trump, its the beginning of his wrath.  The vials of his wrath have not even started until chapters 15 and 16.  

[Rev 15:5-8 KJV] 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

What will you do with this? and the 7 trumpets?

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

 

[missmuffet]

Here are some weaknesses in the Pre-wrath rapture:

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.

https://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

Edited April 6, 2020 by missmuffet

[RonaldBruno]

The scroll with seven seals is like a play written, orders that take place at another time. When Jesus arrived in heaven in 32 AD, He opened the scroll. How else would we know what was inside? Of course, heaven is outside our time domain. The vision of Jesus opening the scroll was in Johns past. In Rev. 5:3, no one in heaven or on earth was worthy to open the scroll - (this was at a time prior to the death and resurrection.) Then in  verse 5, the sacrificial lamb shows up worthy - (which is post death, resurrection and ascension).

The trumpet and bowl events fall within the seals events. It is like a transparent sphere, multidimensional. As you turn the sphere you see different vantage points of tho he that overlap and are a cumulative. This is why this book is so confusing and has many views. 

It is not written in a linear, chronological order. God shows us one thing at a time. 

So, the play doesn't start until the stage is set and the trumpets start to blow. Now with each trumpet, it does not necessitate that all the events are released and fulfilled before the next trumpet sounds. They could all sound off rapidly and then the damage accumulates and events overlap. 

Here is proof that the seventh trumpet is the famed last trumpet, when our resurrection/rapture occurs.

Many things occur after the seventh trumpet sounds. Revelation 11:15-19 tells us:

* Christ appears.            * The resurrection of the Church   (Rec. 11:15 is the same event as Rev. 7:9, just a different vantage point. Rev. 7:14 confirms that the great multitude, just came out of the Great Tribulation, washed by the blood of Christ)                             * The Kingdoms of the world become the Lord's * The dead ( in Hades) are resurrected and judged                             * We receive rewards according to our deeds   * The Temple of God in Heaven is open               * The Bowls of God's wrath are released upon the earth.

>>> So, I have to agree with Jason Perkins.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I agree. The above is accurate and true. But since the word of the Lord is true in it's entirety, and especially the word of prophecy then this is also true

7th Trump

"15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

In Rev 6:15-17 we are seeing the fear of the people due to the impending wrath which is about to fall

In Rev 11:16-18 we see the elders proclaiming that wrath is come. This is not a contradiction and smooths out the timeline. Therefore what is happening is wrath is presaged at the 6th seal and either commences or is about to at the 7th trumpet.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

Finished, accomplished, completed. I'm not following what you are saying.

You originally quoted Rev 10:7, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The Greek term shown below is a move to the next phase. It doesn't mean it's over, it means the consummation is about to begin.

"teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos)."

So then the 7th trump declares the beginning of the final phase of the process, not the end of the actions.