The Rapture Deception

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, of course by Satan working through the man of sin. Agreed.  It it has nothing to do with God's wrath, until you consider TIME. What do I mean? WHILE The Beast is overcoming the saints, the sea will turn to blood, and the fresh water will turn to blood, and the sun will scorch people - then it will get DARK: all these will affect saint and sinner alike.  So it will be GOD'S wrath simultaneous with Satan's wrath. OF COURSE God will not be angry with the saints; but it will still get DARK. 

There is no "fog." It is just UNDERSTANDING the text of Revelation. When God says ALL in the sea died - do you imagine that does not include the saints? When the sun scorches people with heat - do you imagine it is only those with the mark that get scorched? When it gets dark, will God give the saints cat eyes to see in the dark? It is why God's plan is to pull the saints out: but He can ONLY take those who are born again and "looking for Him."

• Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and speak to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, “Let My people go, that they may serve Me.  For if you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them, behold, the hand of the Lord will come with a very severe pestilence on your livestock which are in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the herds, and on the flocks.  But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel.”’”   Exodus 9:1-4

If God is making a distinction between Egyptian and Israeli livestock to protect that which belongs to Israel, how much more does He know who belongs to Him and will keep them from the plagues?  Your human rationale betrays you.  God is not limited to doing things according to what you think is possible or not.  Have faith in God.

When it comes to tribulation, judgment, and wrath, care should be taken to determine who is the source of it and who is the object of it.  It's not all the same.  That might make a good topic.

[iamlamad]

34 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Martin Luther wrote against Jews...  I refuse to learn from him or Calvin or any of the 'great' men.

Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"
 
Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.

"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

 The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.

Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

Martin Luther – 1543

On The Jews and Their Lies

What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies, Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971.

Martin Luther - 1543

Of The Unknowable Name and The Generations of Christ

But your [God’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...

Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.

Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...

Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…

John Calvin

A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.

You started out in error. 

Martin Luther  was a Catholic!  Yes, he did write against the Jews. But His 95 Theses were written against the Catholic church - and rightly so.  Remember the "dark ages?" There was VERY little knowledge of the word of God back then. Thank GOD for men like John Gus and Martin Luther who had even a little bible of Bible Knowledge and understanding.

I agree: all these men had unjustified hated for the Jews. But they were in one small way correct: the entire 70th week is FOR the Jews. They still have a "shattering" coming: God must take them to the place where their ONLY HOPE is God's intervention. Today, for the most part, they trust in their IDF (Israeli Defence Forces).                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

• Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and speak to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, “Let My people go, that they may serve Me.  For if you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them, behold, the hand of the Lord will come with a very severe pestilence on your livestock which are in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the herds, and on the flocks.  But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel.”’”   Exodus 9:1-4

If God is making a distinction between Egyptian and Israeli livestock to protect that which belongs to Israel, how much more does He know who belongs to Him and will keep them from the plagues?  Your human rationale betrays you.  God is not limited to doing things according to what you think is possible or not.  Have faith in God.

When it comes to tribulation, judgment, and wrath, care should be taken to determine who is the source of it and who is the object of it.  It's not all the same.  That might make a good topic.

We can only have TRUE faith in the written word of God. I don't read for the 70th week that God will protect the cattle! We do read in Joel that the cattle will be perplexed because the grass of the pasture is burned up. God's plan for this time is to destroy the world and in sinners on the world.  Find a scripture pertinent to the 70th week where God's plan is to protect the saints. On other other hand, He HAS given us scripture that the saints will be overcome.  Would He contradict Himself? I don't think so.  I don't have a "rationale." I read what the word says and I believe it. When God says ALL on the sea will die, I don't question it or try to reason a way around it. I believe ALL on the sea will die. Ships run on engines, and engines use sea water for cooling. The engines driving th ships will stop functioning. What is a ship to do stranding the middle of the sea? 

What I don't know is if "the sea" turning to blood is only localized to the Middle EAst or if it is for the oceans of the world.

[ENOCH2010]

Why do pre-tribbers fear death so much?

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Notice what is really written: "those days..." We could ask, "those days" of WHAT? What is Matthew telling us? It is "those days" of "great tribulation." You see, man in his great wisdom has in error put a TITLE on things: the whole 7 years is "the tribulation"  (when John said in chapter 1 that HE was in "the tribulation.") and the last half is "great tribulation." The truth is, in or during the last half of the week, there will be DAYS of great tribulation.  First the false prophet has to show up, then the image created, then the mark created and THEN (after the angel warning in chapter 14) the days of GT will begin in earnest as they enforce worshiping the image and making all receive the mark.  

Shalom, iamlamad.

This is your first mistake: You've equated the "whole 7 years" as "the tribulation." The Scriptures NEVER say that! In fact, the accusative form of the Greek word "thlipsis," "thlipsin," is found in verse 9!

Matthew 24:9-11 (KJV)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

And, verse 11 hails back to verses 4 and 5:

Matthew 24:4-5 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

" (You) Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ (I am the Messiah)'; and shall deceive many. ..."

Thus, Yeshua`s (Jesus') "tribulation" began in the First Century A.D. against His own, original disciples! It's been an on-going "tribulation" since then!

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There can be no doubt that there has been MIS-interpreting going on since these words were written.  Almost every word in Revelation has been misinterpreted. 

As for the rapture, do you believe Paul when in 1 Cor. he wrote that it was a mystery up to that point? NO ONE knew before Paul received the revelation, that those who are alive will be caught up and changed! Did you note that the gathering in Matthew 23 says nothing about anyone changing or being resurrected? Why is that? It is simple: it is not Paul's rapture. It is a different gathering - taking place at a different time, and gathering from a different place.

Did you give the correct location? Matthew 23 says NOTHING about a "gathering!" The closest thing in that chapter is Yeshua`s scathing words against the scribes and Pharisees and other Jews of Jerusalem when He said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!"

That's a "gathering" that NEVER HAPPENED! And, there's no promise here that it will happen in the future! Now, if you meant Matthew 13, we can discuss that.

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To determine the timing of the rapture we must study PAUL. He was the first and only writer of the New Testament to learn that those who are alive would be caught up. 

Here is your second mistake: The word errantly translated "(we) shall be caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the Greek word "harpageesometha," the future, indicative, passive form of the verb "harpazoo" (the "oo" being an omega).

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

There is no "up" in the word! There's no "up" implied in the word! It just means "snatched!" The word means "we shall be seized" or "we shall be snatched" or "we shall be taken by force!"

The context of this verse does say we shall be taken into the air "to meet the Lord in the air," but it does NOT say where we will be going next!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It NEVER said where the Lord would be going next! The "back to heaven" part is FABRICATED!

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John also wrote that Jesus went to build us homes in heaven, and would one day come and get us and take us to those homes; but nothing there about a resurrection.

Here is your third mistake: Yeshua` (Jesus) NEVER said that He would "one day come and get us and take us to those homes!" Here's what He DID say:

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He said He would come again and receive them (and us) unto Himself, but He NEVER said where He would be going next! What He DID say was that where He would be then, there THEY (and US) may be also! This passage never even IMPLIES that He would be going back with us to His Father's house! That, too, is FABRICATED!

John writes later (in Revelation 21) that His Father's house (as a Bedouin tent) comes HERE! It will be THEN that we can enjoy our "mansions!"

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

However, this occurs AFTER the "thousand years," the "Millennium," of Revelation 20:1-7.

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It was generally believed that the resurrection was on the last day. But until John wrote, no one really knew much about that "last day." Because of John's revelation, we understand the last day to be "the Day of the Lord." It is not one 24 hour day, but an extended period of time when GOD'S will is done on earth. 

Well, Peter (Kefa ["Cephas"], which means "a hollow stone; a geode") told us about it in 2 Peter 3, but you're right: "The Day of the Lord" is NOT "one 24-hour day, but an extended period of time when GOD'S will is done on earth."

2 Peter 3:7-13 (KJV)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:8-15).

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night (at the beginning); in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (at the end).

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

But, the Millennium is just the BEGINNING of that extended period of time! We were also told this through the words of Gavri'el (Gabriel) to Miryam (Mary):

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

And, the nations of the earth still exist in the new earth for we are told,

Revelation 21:24-27 (KJV)

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

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John was not shown the rapture so did not write of it. However, God allowed John to see the raptured church in heaven right after the rapture - in Rev. 7.  That being said, from studying Paul, we can determine where the rapture fits in John's narrative. 

There there is this: most "tribbers," whether pre or post, cannot find the "trib" or the 70th week in Revelation - clearly marked out - beginning and end: most only guess on where it starts. Then they have no idea where Paul's rapture fits into Revelation; so, they imagine they know it is either pre or post. In other words, they are guessing! I am pretrib, but I have never read after any pretribber that could show us accurately in Revelation where the 70th week begins and where the rapture is in relation to the week. So they imagine the rapture is in 4:1, when any beginning reader could tell us that was JOHN being caught up in 95 AD!  That HUGE error on the part of pretribbers opened the door for posttrib, midtrib and prewrath - for all could read Rev. 4:1 and KNOW that was not the rapture. Sorry, I am rambling. 

I believe that the Scriptures teach us that the "Rapture," not to "Heaven," but to the air where we meet with the Lord and then descend to the Middle East, occurs at the END of the whole 2,000-year tribulation, marked by the sun, moon, and stars signs. Yeshua` told us,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (in the sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I believe this is ALL of His "elect," His "chosen ones!"

These signs in the skies do not end until Revelation 9! Then, it is in Revelation 11 that we read,

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever!"

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Retrobyter
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[Diaste]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If all this is an argument for a posttrib rapture, it is a very very WEAK argument. The truth is, God WANTS people to repent and turn to Him during the week.  At least they will be with Him forever. If they don't repent during the week, they will be LOST to God forever.  I think when the angels preach the everlasting gospel, warning people that to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire, many will refuse the mark and lose their head - but they will be with God forever. 

It's not an argument for, it's a question about the grave hypocrisy of the doctrine. Pretrib says "We escape, you suffer." Very sad and disturbing.

 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The real argument of pretrib vs posttrib is determining and understanding PAUL in 1 and 2 Thes, and then Jesus in the Olivet discourse.  These scriptures are the key to determining the truth. Preparing for the "trib?" That is human reasoning.  If some saints are exempt from wrath and others must live though it: just more human reasoning.  Our job is to get as many as possible "IN CHRIST" before He comes. 

I don't disagree here. Though I think being spiritually prepared as were the 5 wise virgins is vital and in the realm of great spiritual maturity and sound reasoning.

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Pretrib condemns millions of brothers and sisters in Christ to death and destruction in the wrath of the Almighty, while the Pretrib group uses that same wrath as an excuse to be taken before wrath begins.  Sorry, but all TRUE brothers and sisters will escape His wrath via the rapture. It will certainly NOT be God's fault they were not "in Christ" at the time of the rapture. I could write, "posttrib condemns millions of brothers and sisters to being overcome and loosing their head when they could have escaped."

The argument here is that Pretrib says the group of saints that 'came out of great tribulation' endured the wrath of God. Not possible according to Pretrib's own doctrine and the truth, 'we are not appointed to wrath'. 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please explain how believers on the sea  - when it turns to blood  - can live, when God said all die.
Please explain how believers can have light when God tells us it will be total darkness. 

Please explain how the believers can escape the scorching heat of the sun of they are on the same side of the earth as the sinner.

Please explain how believers will have water to drink when God turns all fresh water into blood. 

The truth is, ALL ON THE EARTH at this time will suffer from God's wrath. No one will be exempt. 

Posttribbers seem to think that most believers will live through the 70th week. Pretribbers think most believers will be overcome.  Which is the truth of scripture?

The Pretrib doctrine conflates the 70th week with God's wrath. Scripture tells us wrath only begins when the Son of Man arrives; after the A of D, and after great tribulation.

I choose to rely on the strength of the Lord's mighty hand to protect us no matter the situation.

 

Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord,

“He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. 

You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day, nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday. 

A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. 

If you say, “The Lord is my refuge,” 

and you make the Most High your dwelling, 

no harm will overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. 

For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. You will tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. 

“Because he loves me,” says the Lord,

“I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him;

I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation.” - Psalm 91

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please answer this question first: in verse 3b, is the man of sin revealed? 

Yes.

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I choose to rely on the strength of the Lord's mighty hand to protect us no matter the situation.

Yes and the "not appointed to WRATH" might just mean the final lake of fire and have nothing to do with the Eschaton. The 70th week may mean nothing as well. Ancient history is not necessarily OUR future.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You're using an idea for your benefit and failing to apply it evenly across all the members of the group. If you, as a believer, are not appointed to wrath, then no other believer is appointed to wrath either.

This is a theory, but it is not the truth of scripture. There many "believers" that are not "born again."   In other words, they BELIEVE in Christ, but they are not "IN Christ." They are not qualified for the rapture. Paul is very clear that the rapture is reserved for those IN CHRIST: that means, born again.  What is God to do? Will He withhold wrath because some people did not get born again? No, wrath is written and will surely come. God will take out of the earth all who are Born again and expecting Him. We cannot pull scriptures out of their context. We cannot form doctrine from isolated scriptures! We form doctrine from ALL end times scriptures - IN CONTEXT.  

A nice try iamlamad, but fallacious. It's the 'one true Scotsman' logical fallacy. I of course would be talking about all those eligible for redemption and salvation in the Lord at any time and any from any age across history. You're injecting a conflation of groups that are unrelated to the topic.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 4 & 5 about the rapture: only those IN CHRIST are raptured.

IN CONTEXT then, only those IN CHRIST are not appointed to wrath. 

Absolutely true. Then what of the group here?

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Pretrib says great tribulation, the 70th week, the tribulation period, is all the wrath of God. Clearly this group is redeemed as they are standing before the throne and have come out of great tribulation. Not possible per the Pretrib doctrine. They would have endured the wrath of God, to which the doctrine you hold says we are not appointed. Yet your doctrine says this group must endure God's wrath. A sticky issue and no answer from the advocates of Pretrib.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But there is yet another scripture that is pertinent:

Heb. 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

He is not coming this next time to bear sins: that task was accomplished His first coming. He is coming this next time "unto salvation." This word "salvation" has a broad meaning. Here - as in 1 thes. 5 - the meaning is to rescue people from God's wrath in the Day of the Lord.  (1 Thes. 5: WE get "salvation" [caught up] and get to "live together with Him" - but THEY get left behind and get "sudden destruction.")  Notice the words very closely in this Hebrew verse: to WHOM shall He appear to?  He will appear ONLY to those that are looking for him. 

What "Hebrew verse"?

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This brings up a question in my mind: will a staunch believer in a posttrib rapture be looking for Jesus coming  - tomorrow? 

No. Scripture says certain conditions must be met, and others must exist, before the Lord returns. That does not mean we are not looking. We are. We place our hope and trust in the Lord, not a doctrine.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore, they are also force to assume that the 6th seal, where GOD tells us wrath begins, must then happen, not where John put it, between the 5th and 7th seal, but at the end. 

No. You are saying that. No one I have heard has ever said the 6th seal comes after the 7th seal. This is another logical fallacy called reductio ad absurdum where one takes an opposing argument to some ridiculous conclusion as a harsh critique.

Posttrib is the doctrine that says wrath begins after great tribulation with the idea of the days of great tribulation 'cut short' of the end of the week. Scripture tells us this and also places both great tribulation and wrath fully inside the last half of the week, not after the week is over. This smoothly harmonizes with every scripture of truth on the matter.

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course, none of this really fits Revelation. The truth is, the 6th seal, with all the other seals are sealing a book: a very important book that when opened will get Satan kicked off his throne and give the kingdoms of the world back to their rightful owner: Jesus Christ. Note carefully though: the book cannot get opened to reveal what is INSIDE IT  (at least the trumpet judgments  - but most likely the entire 70th week) until all 7 seals are opened first. It is therefore impossible to move the 6th seal anywhere else. All 7 seals MUST HAPPY in linear time before the first trumpet judgment is sounded. 

Therefore, your theory that no OTHER believer is appointed to wrath, is false. That scripture must be taken in context.  It is going to be church age -> rapture -> Day of the Lord and His wrath: wrath following instantly after the rapture. When millions of "christians" (believers?) that are not born again at that point in time discover they were not ready so were not caught up - but were left behind -  many of them will do everything in their power to find out WHY they were left behind  - and correct their mistake: they will become determined not to "miss it."  At that point in time, after the wrath of God has started, but before the first trumpet judgment, they will be "believers" that will have to suffer God's wrath. God is not going to have a second rapture for all those not ready at the first rapture.

Uh huh... then do tell how it is that John saw the result of the first seal before the second seal was opened. 

Paul said 'we are not appointed to wrath'. This is the clause Pretrib uses to justify their escape. Yet it only applies to them. What an arrogant position! 

What makes you a 'better' believer? More 'true'? Such prejudice and hypocrisy. And worse...you are condemning your own family to that which you escape.

Oh? No 'second rapture'? Then what of those in Rev 7? "“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

You aren't going to see great tribulation. How did these get to the throne room?

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So WHERE in John's very linear in time narrative does God's wrath begin?  John and Paul together are clear: God's wrath will begin BEFORE any part of the 70th week. And His wrath will continue on through EVERY PART of the 70th week written in Revelation: His wrath will start at the 6th seal in chapter 6 and will continue on from that point to the end: so every trumpet judgment will come with His wrath. The war in heaven will take place while He has wrath. Then Satan's war machine will get going and millions will be beheaded. This will only ADD to God's wrath. So when the time is right, God will begin to pour out the bowls of His wrath on a world of people who refuse to repent - to SHORTEN THOSE DAYS of GREAT TRIBULATION caused by Satan's wrath.  In other word, while Satan is very angry because he is cast down (lost his wings) and is murdering saints around the world, God is pouring out the vials of HIS wrath to shorten the days where Satan is murdering people. 

Do you finally see this? God's wrath and Satan's wrath are CONCURRENT: both are angry simultaneously.  Satan's wrath and God's wrath coinciding -  side by side -  at the same time - running parallel. I don't know of any other way to say it. While Satan is angry with the saints and putting them to death, God is angry with Satan and the Beast and all they are doing and will pour out the vials of His wrath WHILE Satan's anger is putting the saints to death.

But you can't prove this. 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, it is impossible to separate IN TIME God's wrath from Satan's wrath. They happen together  - at the same time.  While saints are being murdered, sores will appear on all those who have the mark: God's wrath in the first bowl. While saints are being martyred, the sea turns to blood, and all in the sea die: God's wrath in the second bowl. While MORE saints are being martyred, all fresh water turns to blood: God's third bowl of wrath. While yet MORE saints are being martyred, suddenly the sun begins to burn with greater intensity, scorching men with heat: God's fourth bowl of wrath.  And while even MORE saints are being martyred around the world, suddenly everything turns dark: God's fifth bowl of wrath. By this time, FAR fewer saints are being martyrs. God is SHORTENING those days where saints are being martyred. He is rendering the armies of the Beast HELPLESS. It is much harder to hunt down a saint in the dark. On the other hand, it will be much easier for the saints to hide in the dark. However, the armies of the beast will have ifrarad and will STILL be hunting down saints - but the murders will be slowed down greatly.

Do you get the picture? Both God's wrath and Satan's wrath happen at the same time. It is impossible to separate then in TIME. Therefore, if there is a believer on the sea when it turns to blood, that believer will die along with everyone else.  The believers won't get the sores, because they won't have the mark. But God is not going to create tiny lights for the believers when it is dark everywhere else: it is going to be dark EVERYWHERE, so the saints  must suffer along with those who have the mark. It will be the same with the heat from the sun: it will scorch the saints right along with those who refuse to repent. In other words, ALL in the sea will die, all will get scorched, all will be in the dark, all will have blood to drink, saint and sinner alike. 

 ???

[Eddy Crocker]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Yes and the "not appointed to WRATH" might just mean the final lake of fire and have nothing to do with the Eschaton. The 70th week may mean nothing as well. Ancient history is not necessarily OUR future.

Jesus is the second Adam and picks up where the first Adam left off. Jesus died in Golgotha meaning the place of the skull. Adam died in his head, skull, or consciousness. Jesus picks up there. The first Adam lived 930 years which is 70 years short of a day with Yahweh. 
Jesus fulfills that 70 years Of the first Adam after he dies at Golgotha. 50 days later Pentecost happens and about 7 more years until the Gentiles were grafted in and received the Holy Spirit as well as the Jews 7 years later. This I believe Is where Jesus has already fulfilled the 70 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy which are the 70 years short of when the first Adam died. There’s also 70 feet in the tabernacle starting from the gate going unto the first veil of the tabernacle which separates the court around about from the Holy place.

We are told to stand in the Holy place. The first veil is the door into the Holy place. Jesus says he’s the door. So in other words Jesus fulfills these 70 weeks to get us past the 4th step of the Tabernacle to get us into the Holy place. The 3rd step of the tabernacle was the brazen laver where the sacrifice was washed.

This is why Jesus had to be baptized because in order for the priest to put the sacrifice on the altar of sin sacrifice the sacrifice had to be washed first. John recognizes this and that’s why he made the comment about Jesus being the lamb that takes away the sin of the world.

Jesus is fulfilling everything that was instituted thru the law and the prophets and he’s fulfilling the tabernacle pattern to a tee. This is how we truly understand everything in scripture but I never hear anyone using  this tabernacle pattern. This is why you have the 2 witnesses measuring the tabernacle. This is where you get the 70 feet which are the 70 weeks of Daniels prophesy being fulfilled.

Ezekiel 43:10...,Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern