The Rapture Deception

[Diaste]

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Then you will have to come up with another theory on HOW the man of sin is revealed in 3b.

No point. You have your dogma. Maybe you will see the light one day.

[Diaste]

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are free to believe that if you choose - but it is simply not true. The church is a different dispensation that the Old Covenant saints. However, we are all children of Abraham. The church is the bride, but the Old Testament saints will be guests at the same marriage. And all will be judges in the Millennial reign. WE are no better than they, nor are they any better than us. The only difference is a different dispensation where we get to be born again. We are the spiritual seed of Abraham, while they are physical seed.

Have your ears heard what you just said?

[ENOCH2010]

My ears heard him say he was a better than all the saints that came before him 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So you think God is going to marry a city? Really? 

Ellicott's  Commentary under this verse has this to say:

"Before entering upon this section it is wise to recall once more that the descriptions here given are figurative, and are not to be understood literally. “There is nothing in it as it seems saving the King.” This remark may well be thought needless; but the misconceptions and misrepresentations of the Christian’s hope have been many and reckless; and, even were this not the case, there is always a certain proportion of people who seem incapable of understanding figurative language. Half the errors of the Church have been due to prosaic-minded men who could not discern the difference between figure and fact; and men of unpoetical and vehement temperament have blundered over these descriptions, and their blunders have discredited the whole Apocalypse in the eyes of some."

Matthew Henry's Commentary had this to say:  "The change of emblems from a bride to a city, shows that we are only to take general ideas from this description."

Barne's notes:  "I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife - I will show you what represents the redeemed church now to be received into permanent union with its Lord - as a bride about to be united to her husband."

Matthew Poole:  "I will show thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife; I will show thee the whole church, (invisible heretofore), the glorious state of the church triumphant, under the representation of a great city."

There are many things in Revelation that are symbolic; they are to represent something. Take for example, the horses and riders: the white horse and rider, the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider: are  there really horses and riders, or are these horses and riders to REPRESENT something?

The white horse and rider are to represent THE CHURCH, taking the gospel to the world. The church is not a horse, nor is a horse the church. This picture of a rider on a white horse, wearing a crown and carrying a bow is to REPRESENT the church.  It is the same with seals 2 - 4: the other horses that ride together: they are the REPRESENT the devil and his attempts to stop the gospel. 

It is the same with the Bride: WE the PEOPLE who are born again will be the Bride. The city represents the bride. However, if you wish to believe that God will marry a city, you are free to believe that.

 

Spare me the absurdity.  What you fail to grasp is the point that the bride of the Lamb is made up of old and new testament saints.  Why do you think that in the description of the bride, the New Jerusalem, that John includes the twelve tribes of Israel as well as the twelve apostles?  Take some time and rethink things.  

[The Light]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The white horse and rider are to represent THE CHURCH, taking the gospel to the world. The church is not a horse, nor is a horse the church. This picture of a rider on a white horse, wearing a crown and carrying a bow is to REPRESENT the church.  It is the same with seals 2 - 4: the other horses that ride together: they are the REPRESENT the devil and his attempts to stop the gospel. 

It is the same with the Bride: WE the PEOPLE who are born again will be the Bride. The city represents the bride. However, if you wish to believe that God will marry a city, you are free to believe that.

 

Absolute Baloney.

The white horse represents the 7th king who will be given the stephanos crown.

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Spare me the absurdity.  What you fail to grasp is the point that the bride of the Lamb is made up of old and new testament saints.  Why do you think that in the description of the bride, the New Jerusalem, that John includes the twelve tribes of Israel as well as the twelve apostles?  Take some time and rethink things.  

God has already married and divorced Israel. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

No point. You have your dogma. Maybe you will see the light one day.

Of course there is a point: it is exegesis. It is understanding. SOMEHOW the man of sin is revealed in 3b and Paul wrote "and not you know what is restraining..." 

So do YOU know? 

It must be - it can be no other way: in 3a the restrainer most be "gone from the midst" or "taken out of the way." 

It can either be a falling away or a departing: your choice. 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

God has already married and divorced Israel. 

Not the faithful He hasn't.  It has always been an issue of faith.  Read Hebrews 11.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So you think God is going to marry a city? Really? 

Ellicott's  Commentary under this verse has this to say:

"Before entering upon this section it is wise to recall once more that the descriptions here given are figurative, and are not to be understood literally. “There is nothing in it as it seems saving the King.” This remark may well be thought needless; but the misconceptions and misrepresentations of the Christian’s hope have been many and reckless; and, even were this not the case, there is always a certain proportion of people who seem incapable of understanding figurative language. Half the errors of the Church have been due to prosaic-minded men who could not discern the difference between figure and fact; and men of unpoetical and vehement temperament have blundered over these descriptions, and their blunders have discredited the whole Apocalypse in the eyes of some."

Matthew Henry's Commentary had this to say:  "The change of emblems from a bride to a city, shows that we are only to take general ideas from this description."

Barne's notes:  "I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife - I will show you what represents the redeemed church now to be received into permanent union with its Lord - as a bride about to be united to her husband."

Matthew Poole:  "I will show thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife; I will show thee the whole church, (invisible heretofore), the glorious state of the church triumphant, under the representation of a great city."

There are many things in Revelation that are symbolic; they are to represent something. Take for example, the horses and riders: the white horse and rider, the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider: are  there really horses and riders, or are these horses and riders to REPRESENT something?

The white horse and rider are to represent THE CHURCH, taking the gospel to the world. The church is not a horse, nor is a horse the church. This picture of a rider on a white horse, wearing a crown and carrying a bow is to REPRESENT the church.  It is the same with seals 2 - 4: the other horses that ride together: they are the REPRESENT the devil and his attempts to stop the gospel. 

It is the same with the Bride: WE the PEOPLE who are born again will be the Bride. The city represents the bride. However, if you wish to believe that God will marry a city, you are free to believe that.

 

Shalom, iamlamad.

And, THIS is why I don't trust the human writings called "commentaries!" There's too much allegorical thinking! Can't you just see that this is a PHYSICAL CITY that shall descend AND LAND upon the New Earth, becoming a MASSIVE replacement for the old Jerusalem? Revelation 21:2 is an example of a simile and Revelation 21:9 is an example of a metaphor!

Revelation 21:2 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared AS a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9-13 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with (spoke with) me, saying,

"Come hither (Come here), I will shew thee 'the bride,' the Lamb's 'wife' (the Lamb's crowning achievement)!"

10 And he carried me away in the spirit (on the wind) to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Yeshua`s not actually "married" to the city! It's silly to suggest otherwise! It's all shiny and new LIKE a bride on her wedding day! It's going to be a place of which to be EXTREMELY PROUD! After all, Yeshua`s been working on this city for almost 2,000 years now, preparing a place - a room or a "mansion" - for each one of us! (And, why shouldn't they be "mansion-sized apartments or condos?")

This city is SO HUGE that it takes going up to the top of a mountain over a thousand miles away for us, with our limited range of vision, to see it all!

It "comes down from God out of the sky," and since the atmosphere meets the ground all around us at the horizon, it LANDS! If it "hovers," as some have suggested, then it hasn't truly come "OUT of the sky!" Furthermore, there's no such thing as "hovering." Such a feat would use ENORMOUS amounts of energy!

Satellites don't "hover"; they "fall" perpetuously! It's kinda like Abbott and Costello:

Lou Costello: "The other day, I was so frustrated, I threw myself to the ground!"
Bud Abbott: "What happened?"
Lou Costello: "I missed it!"

That's PRECISELY what a satellite does! It's going so fast at its altitude, that it keeps falling to the ground and MISSING it, because the earth's curvature falls away from the satellite before it can get there! The path it traces is called an "orbit." That's how our moon - earth's primary satellite - orbits our earth.

But, this city's wall has FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi), and one would think that at least the first of the twelve foundations would be actually sunk into the earth's crust! Furthermore, I believe the city will appear something like my avatar above, which shows the city with a cut-away section to see the foundations within. Both jasper and sard are red stones; that they are said to be "clear as crystal" is merely the clarity of the gemstone, not the color! "Jasper" today is called the "BLOODstone!" It's normally the dark green chalcedony with flecks of red jasper on its surface, like drops of blood. But, it's the FLECKS OF RED MINERAL WHICH LOOK LIKE BLOOD that are called "jasper," not the dark green chalcedony! The wall is said to consist of jasper, and the first foundation is of jasper. If the walls all meet together (since there's no mention of a roof), then we have a four-sided pyramid that is COMPLETELY COVERED in the "BLOOD!" I believe THAT makes it more valuable than mere "diamonds!" One does not enter the city without going THROUGH THE "BLOOD!" 

The rest of the "foundations," I believe, are foundations of the city at different levels within the walls of the city. The walls support each foundation, and the foundations provide support for the walls! One might even say that the city is STAMPED with the Trinity!

Some also suggest that this city represents the Holy Place and should therefore be a cube, but John said,

Revelation 21:22 (KJV)

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 

And, the temple (or the Holy Place of the temple) is not the city itself either! The "temple" is God Himself and His Messiah, the PERSONS!

Finally, the wording is ...

Revelation 21:16 (KJV)

16 And the city lieth foursquare (Greek: tetragoonos keitai = "four-angled it-lies"), and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 

To "lie foursquare" means to "cover a square area!" He confirms this with the next statement: "the length is as large as the breadth (or width)." A square is two-dimensional; a cube is three-dimensional. So far, it says NOTHING about the third dimension, "height!"

THEN, John adds, "The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal," bringing in the length ONLY of the third dimension. However, he said NOTHING about the shape, size, or directions of the walls leading to that height!

Edited April 28, 2020 by Retrobyter
to fix a verse range

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course there is a point: it is exegesis. It is understanding. SOMEHOW the man of sin is revealed in 3b and Paul wrote "and not you know what is restraining..." 

So do YOU know? 

It must be - it can be no other way: in 3a the restrainer most be "gone from the midst" or "taken out of the way." 

It can either be a falling away or a departing: your choice. 

2 Thess 2:1-8 tells us Jesus coming and the rapture comes after the man of sin is revealed.

And with that, I'm off this merry-go-round.

Good day.