Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[ENOCH2010]

49 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

If you can't see the obvious its not our fault brother. Its not really that complicated. 

It's obvious its not in the Bible 

[Retrobyter]

On 4/20/2020 at 3:03 AM, R. Hartono said:

The wise virgins shall be saved alive and shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

While on the earth the foolish virgins left behind shall be overcome by the beast :

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So This explains there are two groups of people in heaven at the time of Great Tribulation :

1. The Great Multitude of 1 Thes 4:16 in living BODIES.

2. The SOULS under the Altar of the dead martyrs overcome by antichrist in Rev 13:7, they were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. These souls came one by one until their number is accomplished.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Wow! Have YOU ever added to the parable of the ten virgins! Let's go back and review the parable and its meaning, according to Yeshua` (Jesus):

Matthew 25:1-13 (KJV)

1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 

6 And at midnight there was a cry made,

'Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!' 

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise,

'Give us [some] of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.'

9 But the wise answered, saying, 

'Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.' 

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying,

'Lord, Lord, open to us!' 

12 But he answered and said,

'Verily I say unto you, I know you not.'

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable was told for the point He was making in verse 13! "Therefore, STAY ALERT! (Greek: GREEGOREITE!) For you don't know the day nor the hour in which the Son of man comes!"

What YOU'VE added is not to be found in all of what Yeshua` said!

Now, how did His point apply in the parable? After all, ALL TEN of the virgins fell asleep while they were waiting!

The answer is that the wise virgins had a peaceful sleep, knowing that they were ready. The foolish virgins were probably suffering a fitful sleep, knowing that they had left things unfinished, dreading the worst! When they awoke and trimmed their lamps, the worst happened! They discovered that they couldn't keep their lamps burning because they hadn't filled their lamps with oil since the last time they were used! THIS is in what they were negligent! They had not fully prepared for a long party!

They tried to "borrow" some oil from the others, but wisely they refused, saying, "Nope. There won't be enough for us and for you! Go buy some from the merchant (if you can find anyone awake at midnight and willing to sell you any at that ungodly hour)!" 

By the time they got back, the bridegroom (we'd just say "groom" today) had already come and gone in with those who were ready for the marriage and its celebration!

In Yeshua`s day, one didn't just let anyone in after dark. It wasn't safe! However, if the owner of the house could recognize your voice, he might choose to let you in. But, if he couldn't recognize you, then you were fresh out of luck! They were all still friends and in the morning, they would all be together again; however, the foolish virgins had MISSED THE ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME OCCASION AND SUBSEQUENT PARTY! So, His point was, "BE READY!" "BE PREPARED!" That's it! That's all!

You've blown this parable WAY out of proportion! You've got these poor, foolish virgins (1) left behind in the Rapture, (2) fighting in a war with the "Antichrist," (3) being overcome by (losing to) him, (4) beheaded, and (5) being "souls" under the altar in Heaven! 

And, you've got the mystified, wise virgins (1) being saved alive, (2) being caught up in the Rapture, (3) always being with the Lord, and (4) being part of the Great Multitude in living BODIES in Heaven!

I think even Yeshua` Himself would be dumb-founded by your logic! 

 

On the other hand, there's NO SUCH THING as a "disembodied SOUL!" What does "soul" mean? The word in Hebrew is "nefesh":

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

Typically, we would add the word "air-" for clarity: "an air-breathing creature!" ("Creature" simply refers to a "created being," not a horror movie "monster!")

The Greek word "psuchee" was used by Paul to translate the Hebrew word "nefesh" in Genesis 2:7 when he wrote 1 Corinthians 15:45:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: l-nefesh chayaah).

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)

45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan)"; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Therefore, a "soul" is an "air-breathing creature!" So, when you suggested that there would be "two groups of people in heaven at the time of Great Tribulation," and listed them as...

1. The Great Multitude of 1 Thes 4:16 in living BODIES.

2. The SOULS under the Altar of the dead martyrs overcome by antichrist in Rev 13:7, they were beheaded in the Great Tribulation.

... you've got a problem!

How can you have an "air-breathing creature" that doesn't have the "air-breathing" parts, like lungs, bronchial tubes, and nostrils? "Living souls" ARE "living bodies," just as in Genesis 2:7 above!

I believe it's time for you to re-think your logic.

[R. Hartono]

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Wow! Have YOU ever added to the parable of the ten virgins! Let's go back and review the parable and its meaning, according to Yeshua` (Jesus):

Matthew 25:1-13 (KJV)

1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 

6 And at midnight there was a cry made,

'Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!' 

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise,

'Give us [some] of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.'

9 But the wise answered, saying, 

'Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.' 

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying,

'Lord, Lord, open to us!' 

12 But he answered and said,

'Verily I say unto you, I know you not.'

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable was told for the point He was making in verse 13! "Therefore, STAY ALERT! (Greek: GREEGOREITE!) For you don't know the day nor the hour in which the Son of man comes!"

What YOU'VE added is not to be found in all of what Yeshua` said!

Now, how did His point apply in the parable? After all, ALL TEN of the virgins fell asleep while they were waiting!

The answer is that the wise virgins had a peaceful sleep, knowing that they were ready. The foolish virgins were probably suffering a fitful sleep, knowing that they had left things unfinished, dreading the worst! When they awoke and trimmed their lamps, the worst happened! They discovered that they couldn't keep their lamps burning because they hadn't filled their lamps with oil since the last time they were used! THIS is in what they were negligent! They had not fully prepared for a long party!

They tried to "borrow" some oil from the others, but wisely they refused, saying, "Nope. There won't be enough for us and for you! Go buy some from the merchant (if you can find anyone awake at midnight and willing to sell you any at that ungodly hour)!" 

By the time they got back, the bridegroom (we'd just say "groom" today) had already come and gone in with those who were ready for the marriage and its celebration!

In Yeshua`s day, one didn't just let anyone in after dark. It wasn't safe! However, if the owner of the house could recognize your voice, he might choose to let you in. But, if he couldn't recognize you, then you were fresh out of luck! They were all still friends and in the morning, they would all be together again; however, the foolish virgins had MISSED THE ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME OCCASION AND SUBSEQUENT PARTY! So, His point was, "BE READY!" "BE PREPARED!" That's it! That's all!

You've blown this parable WAY out of proportion! You've got these poor, foolish virgins (1) left behind in the Rapture, (2) fighting in a war with the "Antichrist," (3) being overcome by (losing to) him, (4) beheaded, and (5) being "souls" under the altar in Heaven! 

And, you've got the mystified, wise virgins (1) being saved alive, (2) being caught up in the Rapture, (3) always being with the Lord, and (4) being part of the Great Multitude in living BODIES in Heaven!

I think even Yeshua` Himself would be dumb-founded by your logic! 

 

On the other hand, there's NO SUCH THING as a "disembodied SOUL!" What does "soul" mean? The word in Hebrew is "nefesh":

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

Typically, we would add the word "air-" for clarity: "an air-breathing creature!" ("Creature" simply refers to a "created being," not a horror movie "monster!")

The Greek word "psuchee" was used by Paul to translate the Hebrew word "nefesh" in Genesis 2:7 when he wrote 1 Corinthians 15:45:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: l-nefesh chayaah).

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)

45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan)"; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Therefore, a "soul" is an "air-breathing creature!" So, when you suggested that there would be "two groups of people in heaven at the time of Great Tribulation," and listed them as...

1. The Great Multitude of 1 Thes 4:16 in living BODIES.

2. The SOULS under the Altar of the dead martyrs overcome by antichrist in Rev 13:7, they were beheaded in the Great Tribulation.

... you've got a problem!

How can you have an "air-breathing creature" that doesn't have the "air-breathing" parts, like lungs, bronchial tubes, and nostrils? "Living souls" ARE "living bodies," just as in Genesis 2:7 above!

I believe it's time for you to re-think your logic.

You will find it when you get there with ur soul.

[Revelation Man]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:05 PM, ENOCH2010 said:

It's obvious its not in the Bible 

Its obvious you can't see what is in the bible. Paul told us it was a MYSTERY yet you can't then decipher what he does tell us. Go figure. There are 100's of POINTERS you guys refuse to see......I imagine the Pharisees told Jesus the same thing, where are you at in the Scriptures !! They couldn't see what was obvious, and they were supposed leaders. So maybe, just maybe you can't see it because its staring you right in the face and you don't want to see it. Its kinda tiresome pointing out the obvious over and over tbh. 

And it doesn't matter how many time these OBVIOUS THINGS are pointed out, you like the Pharisees want a MATTER OF FACT statement, psstt, why didn't the Pharisees see Jesus in the scriptures ? Could it be they are doing the same thing you are? Insisting that the obvious can't be true ? I imagine if we all lived 2000 plus years ago and I pointed to the Suffering Servant in the Bible you would have only seen the Conquering King. Both are there of course.

The Rapture is OBVIOUS via the scriptures, you just chose to not look at what is pointed out as obvious, like the Church Returning with Jesus while the Beast is still on earth in Rev. 19. When are you going to answer these OBVIOUS POINTS ? Avoiding the truth doesn't change the facts brother. Your understanding nor mine are important, God's are, and we should yield to the truth. We see the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened in chapters 4 and 5 but of course that's not real either is it ? We see that the REMNANT in Rev. 12 can not be Jews, thus it can only be the Remnant Church but again, you can't overcome my argument, so you dodge it. The reason you guys can't overcome any of these arguments is because the truth always holds up over time.

But you hold on to your beliefs.........I will hold on to the facts, I don't care about my beliefs at all. When God shows me things I am thankful, even if it proves my previous understanding to have been in error. Just like on the Seals, they are not actionable, not even the 6th Seal, they all only start after the 1st Trump is sounded. The truth is all I care about, I know I am an error prone human, so I have a good shot of learning, if I understand I don't know everything already.

What's obvious is some people are not called to teach eschatology, I been saying that for awhile now. Its not like everyone is called to be the same thing.  

Edited April 29, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture is OBVIOUS via the scriptures, you just chose to not look at what is pointed out as obvious, like the Church Returning with Jesus while the Beast is still on earth. When are you going to answer these OBVIOUS POINTS ?

He Revelation man, I really chimed in here to let you know that you are getting a bit personal, and accusative, please stick to the topic, and cease telling people that they cannot see the obvious.

Apart from that, I thought I would add that you are absolutely correct I think about what you said that the church cannot return to earth while the beast is on the earth, unless they are raptured first. The only think I would note about that that I think is missing, is that you did not establish that the rapture had to occur before the time of the beast, nor have you established that it cannot occur after the Great Tribulation. If you believe that to be the case, you should establish that with some relevant Bible quotes, right? I look forward to seeing those.

In the meantime, I am thinking that those are just assertions, an idea added to scripture, that scripture never states. Is there some reason you know of (scripturally) why the following sequence cannot happen?:

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

You will find it when you get there with ur soul.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Sorry, but I'm not going! First, there's no such thing as "heaven" as it is described in theology. Second, it's our prospect to rise again in the Resurrection! Until that point in human history, we will remain in our graves (or urns or whatever) until that time. When we come back to life and become air-breathers again, THEN we will be "immortal souls!"

That which is DESCRIBED as "heaven" is really the New Jerusalem! In THAT, I COMPLETELY believe! However, haMelekh Yeshua` (King Jesus) must reign for His first 1,000 years from modern Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) before Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem) comes down. It is THEN that we shall enjoy our new home!

[R. Hartono]

3 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Sorry, but I'm not going! First, there's no such thing as "heaven" as it is described in theology. Second, it's our prospect to rise again in the Resurrection! Until that point in human history, we will remain in our graves (or urns or whatever) until that time. When we come back to life and become air-breathers again, THEN we will be "immortal souls!"

That which is DESCRIBED as "heaven" is really the New Jerusalem! In THAT, I COMPLETELY believe! However, haMelekh Yeshua` (King Jesus) must reign for His first 1,000 years from modern Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) before Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem) comes down. It is THEN that we shall enjoy our new home!

Is your Avatar representing hidden triangle of all seeing eye.

[douggg]

 

On 4/27/2020 at 6:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan)"; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Therefore, a "soul" is an "air-breathing creature!"

 

 

 

       

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

He Revelation man, I really chimed in here to let you know that you are getting a bit personal, and accusative, please stick to the topic, and cease telling people that they cannot see the obvious.

Apart from that, I thought I would add that you are absolutely correct I think about what you said that the church cannot return to earth while the beast is on the earth, unless they are raptured first. The only think I would note about that that I think is missing, is that you did not establish that the rapture had to occur before the time of the beast, nor have you established that it cannot occur after the Great Tribulation. If you believe that to be the case, you should establish that with some relevant Bible quotes, right? I look forward to seeing those.

In the meantime, I am thinking that those are just assertions, an idea added to scripture, that scripture never states. Is there some reason you know of (scripturally) why the following sequence cannot happen?:

Shalom, Omegaman (3.0),

I can, if you don't mind me butting in and you're willing to consider it with an open mind.

Yeshua`s "ministry" was 3.5 years long. (Actually, He was offering the Kingdom of God, David's Kingdom, to Israel, the Jews, His own tribe, first.) We know this from the number of Passovers He attended while offering the Kingdom to Israel. He was rejected by the leaders of the Jews (the elders of Judah) who COULD have made Him their King as was His birthright.

Matthew 2:1-2 (KJV)

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying,

"Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship (bend the knee to) him."

He was (and still is) the heir of David. The messenger Gavri'el told Miryam ("Mary"), His mother, this:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Furthermore, Yeshua` is called the "Christos" which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word, "Mashiyach." And, while there were many "mashiyachs" down through the history of Israel, the LAST "mashiyach" would be the ULTIMATE "mashiyach," the "anointed one" to become King, and the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant!

Here's the Davidic Covenant:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!" 

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD,

"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?'"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Notice two things: First, this is NOT about Shlomoh ("Solomon")! Solomon was installed as king while David was still alive!

Second, note that God did NOT say, "I will be LIKE his father, and he shall be LIKE my son!" He said, "I will BE his Father, and he shall BE my son!"

(more tomorrow)

 

[douggg]

On 4/27/2020 at 11:02 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

In the meantime, I am thinking that those are just assertions, an idea added to scripture, that scripture never states. Is there some reason you know of (scripturally) why the following sequence cannot happen?:

The reason the rapture cannot take place after or at the great tribulation, is that in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the Rapture/Resurrection.    Which the world must be saying peace and safety before the Day of the Lord beginning.    Hardly the case during the great tribulation.   (It can get a little confusing, so please take a look at my second chart down below on the rapture)

In addition, you have left out a couple of critical steps.   The great tribulation is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation - which you properly show.       However, before then is the Transgression of Desolation, an act by the Antichrist.       That act is what actually ends the peace and safety - and triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

 

So it is Peace and Safety, then

The transgression of desolation act, then

the revealed man of sin killed, then

the person brought back to life as the beast, then

the statue image of the beast placed in temple, the Abomination of desolation thing.

which triggers the great tribulation.

 

Here it all is on my chart.

 

 

While the rapture/resurrection cannot happen at the end of the great tribulation, it does not necessarily have to happen before the 70th week begins (as the pre-trib view asserts) - although it could.

Here is my chart of the "anytime" rapture view.   (a label I adopted from Luke 21:34-36).       The rapture/resurrection could take place anytime within the blue zone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by douggg