Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, douggg said:

Man was created in the image of God.    The animals were not.

Shalom, douggg.

And, if you KEEP it to this statement alone, you are correct. However, land animals and some sea-going animals have spirits (breaths) and are souls (air-breathers), just as human beings have and are.

Quote

It meant that Jesus's inner self  departed his body.

No, it means that His BREATH left His body, and under "normal" conditions, He would no longer be an air-breathing creature. Therefore, He, like we shall be if the Lord tarries, was BURIED in Sh'owl (the Grave).

HOWEVER, the NEW "normal" through Him is the RESURRECTION!!! He was RAISED to life after three days and three nights. And, we, like Him, shall be RAISED to new life - a life eternal - when He returns!

John 11:1-44 (KJV)

1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying,

"Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick."

4 When Jesus heard that, he said,

"This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."

5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was. 7 Then after that saith he to his disciples,

"Let us go into Judaea again."

8 His disciples say unto him,

"Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?"

9 Jesus answered,

"Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him."

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them,

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

12 Then said his disciples,

"Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well."

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,

"Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him."

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples,

"Let us also go, that we may die with him!"

17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. 

18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off: 19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her,

"Thy brother shall rise again."

24 Martha saith unto him,

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." (Martha was not wrong to say this, but she wasn't factoring the SOURCE of resurrection into her equation!)

25 Jesus said unto her,

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

27 She saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying,

"The Master is come, and calleth for thee."

29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.

30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him. 31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying,

"She goeth unto the grave to weep there."

32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died!"

33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34 And said,

"Where have ye laid him?"

They said unto him,

"Lord, come and see."

35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews,

"Behold how he loved him!"

37 And some of them said,

"Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?"

38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said,

"Take ye away the stone."

Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him,

"Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days!" 

40 Jesus saith unto her,

"Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said,

"Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,

"Lazarus, come forth!" 

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them,

"Loose him, and let him go."

John added these words Yeshua` said earlier:

John 5:16-47 (KJV)

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things (Jesus healed a man at the Pool of Bethesda) on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them (brings them to life); even so the Son quickeneth (brings to life) whom he will! 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me! 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust! 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me! 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

RESURRECTION IS IMPORTANT! There's no guarantee of "going to Heaven when you die"; someone in history made that up. But, there IS a guarantee of RESURRECTION when our Lord returns! It's not because of WHEN He comes; it's because HE is coming!

Edited May 10, 2020 by Retrobyter
to fix some grammar

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, it means that His BREATH left His body, and under "normal" conditions, He would no longer be an air-breathing creature. Therefore, He, like we shall be if the Lord tarries, was BURIED in Sh'owl (the Grave).

No, it meant that Jesus's inner self  departed his body.    Jesus did not stop existing.    His earthly body was from Mary.   It died.    Jesus is the Lord from heaven, before and after his time here on earth.

The Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

NO, it meant that Jesus's inner self  departed his body.    Jesus did not stop existing.    His earthly body was from Mary.   It died.    Jesus is the Lord from heaven, before and after his time here on earth.

The Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Shalom, douggg.

Well, that's what YOU believe, but Scripture doesn't support it!

You used the wrong pronoun: Not "IT died," but "HE died!"

Again, look at Adam:

GOD HIMSELF said, 

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou ("you" singular) return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

He didn't say, "unto dust shall thy body return," but "unto dust shalt THOU return!" And,

Genesis 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name "Seth": 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

The text doesn't say, "his body died"; it says "HE died!"

If you're like most believers, you will recognize that Isaiah 53 is about Yeshua`s crucifixion.

Isaiah 53:1-12 (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken (NOT His body), smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he (NOT His body) was wounded for our transgressions, he (NOT His body) was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him (NOT upon His body); and with his stripes (NOT His body's stripes) we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he (NOT His body) is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he (NOT His body) was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he (NOT His body) stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death (NOT His body was placed in the grave); because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (NOT His body); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (air-breather) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He (YHWH) shall see of the travail of his soul (air-breather), and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he (NOT His body) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death (His SOUL - His "AIR-BREATHER" DIED): and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Face it! You have a LOT of re-writing to do to the Scriptures if you want your opinion to be taken seriously!

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, that's what YOU believe, but Scripture doesn't support it!

You used the wrong pronoun: Not "IT died," but "HE died!"

I did not use the term "it" died.      It is not a question of whether Jesus died or not, for Jesus certainly died, but rather a question if Jesus continued to exist after his body died.

And whether humans continue to exist, their soul,  after death.      I say yes, and you seem to be saying no.

Matthew 23:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 23:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Those are existence of self, the inner man - conscientious awareness.

Edited May 10, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

On 5/9/2020 at 11:28 PM, R. Hartono said:

Jesus spoke with Moses n Elijah because It was not a vision n Peter Saw their bodies n offered to make tents because It was not a vision, however its ur rights to guess it was a vision as u knew better than Peter.

God bless.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) said it was a VISION. That settles it!

[R. Hartono]

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) said it was a VISION. That settles it!

Don't worry retro you re free to guess it so.

Edited May 12, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Retrobyter]

On 5/10/2020 at 6:30 PM, douggg said:

I did not use the term "it" died.    

Shalom, douggg.

Oh, really? Let's review, shall we?

On 5/10/2020 at 5:06 PM, douggg said:

No, it meant that Jesus's inner self  departed his body.    Jesus did not stop existing.    His earthly body was from Mary.   It died.    Jesus is the Lord from heaven, before and after his time here on earth.

The Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Seems like you don't even know what you wrote!

Quote

It is not a question of whether Jesus died or not, for Jesus certainly died, but rather a question if Jesus continued to exist after his body died.

And whether humans continue to exist, their soul,  after death.      I say yes, and you seem to be saying no.

Matthew 23:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 23:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Those are existence of self, the inner man - conscientious awareness.

I DO say no! People do NOT continue to exist after death! They await the RESURRECTION, and in the Resurrection, they will be raised to new life, and they will become souls once again!

Let's look at the context of Matthew 22:32 (and 37):

Matthew 22: (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said,

"'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' (Deuteronomy 25:5)

25 "Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 

32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob (Exodus 3:6)'?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!" 

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Yeshua` wasn't arguing that Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov were still alive somewhere! He was arguing that there would be a RESURRECTION! THAT'S when they will be "the living," not while they're still in the ground!

Look, I know it's not widely accepted, and it's a little scary to say that there's a DISCONTINUITY to being alive, but our God YHWH is quite capable of remembering everything about YOU and constructing YOU from the dust of the ground, just as He did Adam! That's what the Resurrection is! It's CREATION!

[douggg]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Seems like you don't even know what you wrote!

Okay, I should have wrote Jesus died.    But the point being, Jesus continued to exist after he died.      

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I DO say no! People do NOT continue to exist after death!

That position is in a huge conflict with what the bible says.       Are you saying Jesus did not continue to exist during those three days his body was in the tomb?

You continue to speak about the resurrection.    But the resurrection applies to the redemption of the body.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:52 PM, R. Hartono said:

Don't worry retro you re free to guess it so.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Just admit you're wrong, and let it go.

Matthew 27:1-9 (KJV)

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"THIS is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye HIM!" 

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

I'm DONE talking to you about this! If you want to argue the point anymore, take it up with Yeshua`.

[R. Hartono]

3 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Just admit you're wrong, and let it go.

Matthew 27:1-9 (KJV)

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"THIS is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye HIM!" 

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

I'm DONE talking to you about this! If you want to argue the point anymore, take it up with Yeshua`.

Don't worry retro you are free.