BIG, BIG NEWS: RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE ON MARCH 14, 2023?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

OF COURSE they had His first letter AFTER He came in person. Where do we get the very idea of the rapture? In Paul's FIRST letter. OF COURSE He taught them in person, but then CONFIRMED what He taught them in His first letter. You know: "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout..." 

So they had TWO points of reference: what Paul told them in person (which we all know fades away with time: people forget words spoken) but they also had WRITTEN evidence. An Ancient Chinese proverb: "faintest of is more powerful that strongest of memory." My position is stronger than ever!

Except Paul didn't reference any letter. You're assuming this. Paul specifically says. 'when I was with you'. That's when he first taught them. That would have been a time when he was with them between the writing of the first letter and the second letter. Since that's true, the mentioned teaching could not have been contained in the first letter.

And it's two distinct aspects. One is the coming of the Lord and the translation of the people pf God,

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

The other is the timing in relation to other defined events,

"1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

The timing of the gathering is not taught in the first letter, only the fact of the gathering. 

[Diaste]

6 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

Rapture can happen at any moment. 

No.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We have been over this before. We have what Paul has given us. So we take in apart, verse by verse or thought be thought and try to understand what Paul was thinking. 

Let's start with "and NOW you know...." Sorry, but that does NOT FIT what He taught them in person. No one would write it like that if that was their intent. The ONLY reason one would write  "and now you know" is because they just TOLD someone. What was Paul talking about? Who the restrainer was or is.  He said "and now you know what is restraining..." 

So, do YOU know? Do YOU know who are what is restraining the man of sin and preventing him from manifesting himself before God's intended time?  According to you, the Restrainer has to be some kind of falling away, revolt, defection - from what we don't know because Paul did not inform us....UNLESS we refer back to Paul's theme.

No. The whole 'restrainer' thing has become unrecognizable from what is contained in scripture. Paul is teaching Jesus cannot return until the beast is revealed. 

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 

Here we see the idea, that day shall not come. The only 'day' Paul spoke of just before this is the day of Christ, " by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,".

So that day isn't happening until the beast is revealed. If we went with pretrib interpretation then in 2 Thess 2:1-8 the gathering would take place before the gathering takes place. 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here is what Paul did: He TOLD us in a cloaked way who or what was restraining and what was taken out of the way and that the man of sin was revealed (not in reality but in his argument); then next Paul wrote "and now you know what is restraining..." so we would all know,  then next Paul explains that the one restraining will be taken out of the way.

Paul could have written: "no, you are not in the Day of the Lord yet because the Day has not yet come." But it seems they had asked him not only about the day of the Lord but about the catching away too - so Paul has to include that; in fact, he makes the catching away as his theme.  He wrote, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," Therefore they MUST have asked him about both the DAY and the rapture. 

Now can we use some logic?

Points: they were VERY upset.  (why?)

They had been told that the Day of the Lord was already started and they were IN IT. 

This is just parroting what Lindsey came up with 50 years ago. The equating of the end of the with wrath confuses the truth. Wrath is a short time at the end of the last week and not the condition of the entire last week. Pretrib assumes the 70th week and wrath are synonymous when they are not.

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now stop and think: if Paul had told them the rapture was at the end, why would they be upset? They would have known that they would have to go through the day of the Lord, and it had started, so they had only to wait it out. That theory makes very little sense.

That's a twisting. I don't see scripture point to a 'rapture at the end'. No believer endures the day of the Lord. 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

On the other hand, since in His first letter (which I am sure they were studying) he told them rapture first, they Day of the Lord - and then someone told them the DAY had come and they were IN IT (and apparently left behind) OF COURSE they were be upset. 

And where does the first letter state such timing? Here?

"14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Or here?

"1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. "

There is no timing contained in the first citation above. In the second there is timing but only that of the coming destruction when the masses cry for peace and safety, and not any timing of the gathering or the Lord's return in relation to any other defined event. Any definitive space/time moment gleaned from these passages is made up.

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul then ends up this passage telling then that the departing (shown earlier to be the restrainer taken out of the way) must come FIRST, then the man of sin revealed, and then, finally, people will KNOW  that the DAY has started. 

See how simply this passage is when you take it a piece at a time?

What people MISS: that in verse 3, at the end of the verse, the man of sin IS REVEALED.  then Paul explains HOW he got revealed: the one restraining had to first be taken out of the way.

It is very obvious then that someone in the first part of verse 3 is the restrainer taken out of the way. 

The truth then is:  apostasia is a departing: from WHAT Paul did not come right out and say, like departing from Moses.  And in truth, Paul did not have to say, for when we understand Paul's meaning, it is the great departing of the church as in Paul's rapture / gathering. Once the church has been taken out of the way, then the man of sin will be free to be revealed. But God is not going to allow that until the proper time. 

Incorrect. The Lord's return and the gathering are what is being delayed until the beast is revealed. That day(the coming of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion and the man of sin is revealed.

"for [that day shall not come]," They only day mentioned is the coming of the Lord in conjunction with the gathering. 

" except there come a falling away first," If this is the 'departure' then it has to happen before the 'departure' of verse 1. So the Coming and Gathering cannot happen until the gathering happens? Really?

"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" This is what restrains the Coming and the Gathering, the revealing of the man of sin.

[Diaste]

23 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

I know things. 

Me too.

[Diaste]

32 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

Yes

Nope. But you go.

[Diaste]

18 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

Yes I will. And very soon. 

We'll see.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. The whole 'restrainer' thing has become unrecognizable from what is contained in scripture. Paul is teaching Jesus cannot return until the beast is revealed. 

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 

Here we see the idea, that day shall not come. The only 'day' Paul spoke of just before this is the day of Christ, " by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,".

So that day isn't happening until the beast is revealed. If we went with pretrib interpretation then in 2 Thess 2:1-8 the gathering would take place before the gathering takes place. 

 

Let's look at it together: but please take off ALL preconceived glasses:

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth [(currently) restrains, holds him [this wicked one] back (keeping him down)(from being revealed)(now)] that he might be revealed in his [own appointed] time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness (rebellion against divine authority)] doth already work [but is being restrained]: only he who now letteth [or is now restraining, holding back] will let [or will continue to restrain or hold back], until he be taken out of the way [or until he be gone from the midst].

⁸ And then [after the restraining power has been taken out of the way] shall that Wicked [one, the lawless one - the antichrist Beast - the man of evil] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  (Lamad transliteration - taking words from many translations)

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2 Thessalonians 2:7  (2 Thessalonians 2:7 in all English translations)

This then is "that restrainer thing." It should be well explained by using words from several different translations.  God is sovereign, and He will not allow the man of sin to become the Beast (be revealed as the Beast) until GOD'S timing.  In short, GOD is holding him back, and preventing him from being revealed (entering the temple and declaring he is God) until the time God has specified.  In short, he, the man of sin, is not going to be allowed to enter the Jewish temple until God allows it. 

HOW will God allow it? He will take Who is restraining now "out of the way." This is a simple concept. Imagine a gate blocking the entrance of a mansion. A car cannot enter until that gate is "taken out of the way" or opened or removed. The gate is heading the advancement of the driver, restraining him from entering. 

This is in no way "unrecognizable:" it is Paul telling us what will soon happen. If someone does not believe what Paul is telling us here, after reviewing all English translations, I would guess they just don't want to know. 

 

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Paul is teaching Jesus cannot return until the beast is revealed. 

  No, not at all. That is a theory from preconceptions.  In short, Paul is teaching how to know for sure when the Day of the Lord has come.  (Some Greek texts have "The day of Christ," and others have it as "the Day of the Lord.")

Since Paul used "The day of the Lord" in his first letter, I think that is the better text. Anyway, CHRIST IS LORD, so let's go with what has been defined so well in the Old Testament: Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord. Remember, these people were under severe persecution from the Jews. That is why it was so easy for them to believe that the Day of the Lord had come. 

 

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Here we see the idea, that day shall not come. The only 'day' Paul spoke of just before this is the day of Christ, " by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,".

  No, wrong. Whatever Paul meant in other scriptures by "the day of Christ" is not what is happening here: It is the DARK day of destruction they think they are in: "the Day of the Lord." The very day Paul told them in His first letter would come immediately AFTER the rapture.  Paul has not even hinted yet of the coming or the gathering. That is his theme, but so far he is talking about what they THOUGHT because of what someone told them or perhaps a false prophecy. They THOUGHT they were in the Day of the Lord. And since Paul had taught them previously and in His letter that the rapture would come first, OF COURSE they were upset. 

(we cannot go by preconceptions here: we have to go by what Paul has given us: TWO letters to these people: and the letters MUST agree. In His first letter, the rapture takes place, and then THE DAY comes - as if no time between. )

 

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So that day isn't happening until the beast is revealed.

  This really isn't truth either. The truth is, they thought the day had come and they were IN IT - like it had started months ago. Paul's argument (when Greek tenses are considered) is that when someone sees the man of sin revealed, then they have proof positive that they are IN the day of the Lord, as it had started previously. And that is exactly what John teaches us: "The DAY starts at the 6th seal, in chapter 6 - and then later the man of sin is revealed - in chapter 11.

 

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the gathering would take place before the gathering takes place. 

  Pure myth from preconceptions blocking what is really being said. Part of this myth is the theory that The day of the Lord is the rapture: so the rapture must come first before the rapture. No, it is the Gathering must come first before the man of sin is revealed to show people that the DAY has started. Again, if we refer back to Paul's first letter, we see that the day of the Lord will follow hard after the rapture, AS IF the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath.

We cannot form doctrine from isolated verses or passages: what Paul is saying here MUST agree with what he wrote in his FIRST letter. And when we understand this passage, it does agree: the gathering of the Saints is the restrainer being taken out of the way. And when that happens, and then when the man of sin is revealed, all will know that THE DAY has come and by the time the man of sin is revealed, they are IN it. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is just parroting what Lindsey came up with 50 years ago. The equating of the end of the with wrath confuses the truth. Wrath is a short time at the end of the last week and not the condition of the entire last week. Pretrib assumes the 70th week and wrath are synonymous when they are not.

That's a twisting. I don't see scripture point to a 'rapture at the end'. No believer endures the day of the Lord. 

The equating of the end of the with wrath confuses the truth. Wrath is a short time at the end of the last week and not the condition of the entire last week. Pretrib assumes the 70th week and wrath are synonymous when they are not.  

Shall we just follow what THE WORD says, and not put our own spin on what is written? In other words, are you willing to go with what is written? I will do a search and find the FIRST MENTION of "wrath" in Revelation.

 

Revelation 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

We can note several things here: first, this is in the seals, sealing the book. Seals cannot be moved ANYWHERE ELSE in Revelation: their purpose is to prevent anyone from getting this book open and revealing what is written "within" until the One who sealed is is present to open them. Second, we see then that the Day of His wrath will start before any time of the end judgement. Third, we can note that the 7th seal and first trumpet judgment comes as the next major events after the start of the Day of His wrath. 

 

The next time we see"wrath" is in chapter 11: "and thy wrath is come."

Blue Letter Bible:  "is come" is Greek " erchomai."

From Strongs we see:

Speech: Verb,  Tense: Second Aorist, Voice: Active, Mood: Indicative

From the web we read "The aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action." 

In other words, John is telling us in chapter 11 that wrath started PREVIOUSLY, which is exactly what we know from the 6th seal.

The next time John mentions wrath is in chapter 12 and it is Satan's wrath.  Since we find no verse anywhere here that God gets over his wrath, then in chapter 12 we know that Satan's wrath is running parallel with God's wrath: simultaneous. 

Next, in chapter 14 John speaks of Mystery Babylon and "the wine of the wrath of her fornication."  Two verses later John wrote: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God..." A few verses later John wrote, " the great winepress of the wrath of God." These verses are showing us that God's wrath has not been abated but continues.

Next, John wrote:

Revelation 15:1

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

 

Revelation 15:7

And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

What then does the written WORD of GOD show us about God's wrath? It comes in the last two seals and then continues on through the entire 70th week. Are you going to believe what is written; or stick with your preconceived ideas that does not fit what is written?

 

This is just parroting what Lindsey came up with 50 years ago. 

No, I did not quote from Lindsey: I quoted from the WORD. Your preconceptions are showing. 

 

Wrath is a short time at the end of the last week and not the condition of the entire last week. 

You have just been proven wrong by the written world of God that shows God's wrath through the entire week. Again, preconceptions showing. Why can't people just follow what is written instead of human imagination?

 

Pretrib assumes the 70th week and wrath are synonymous when they are not.

Pretrib follows what is written exactly -  that God's wrath begins before the 70th week and continues on through the entire week. Can we please just follow what is written? 

 

That's a twisting. 

No, it is just taking John at his word with you human reasoning added.

 

No believer endures the day of the Lord.

   Then you have just written off God's plan to replenish the earth with the Sheep from the judgment of the nations.  It would be MUCH better if we just followed the scriptures rather than imagination. OF COURSE people survive and are the sheep at the judgment.  Your theories amaze me. 

 

I don't see scripture point to a 'rapture at the end'. 

Where then DO you see the rapture?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

And where does the first letter state such timing? Here?

"14 For if we believe ... 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Or here?

"1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. "

There is no timing contained in the first citation above. In the second there is timing but only that of the coming destruction when the masses cry for peace and safety, and not any timing of the gathering or the Lord's return in relation to any other defined event. Any definitive space/time moment gleaned from these passages is made up.

When Paul wrote "times and seasons" what was on his mind? OF COURSE the rapture he had just written about. You should have asked yourself, "WHY would Paul write of the Day of the Lord, just three verses after the rapture?" Could it possibly be that the DAY follows the rapture -  just as Paul wrote it? Could it be that His coming and then the rapture are the trigger for the Day of the Lord? 

Did you ever notice that BOTH "the day" and "Jesus" come "as a thief in the night?" Could it be that the reason they BOTH come as a thief in the night is the HIS COMING triggers the Day of the Lord? 

When Paul wrote "when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them," what was on his mind? Of course the rapture which he is still writing about - and what will immediately follow the rapture. WHY is the destruction "sudden?" Because the destruction comes from what just happened: the dead in Christ rising - causing a worldwide earthquake. What day was mentioned just before the "sudden destruction?" Of course "the Day of the Lord." Could it be then that this sudden destruction is then a part of how the Day of the Lord begins?  What will be this sudden event when people are thinking "peace and safety?" It will be that SUDDENLY, without any warning, the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves! This could happen TONIGHT! It is this event that begins what we call "the rapture." It will come suddenly, without any warning and when no one is expecting it.

Paul wrote that "that day should overtake you as a thief." Since "that day" is triggered by HIS COMING, and we are WATCHING for His coming, OF COURSE it does not take us by surprise. We are EXPECTING His coming. Any time now. Or we SHOULD be. 

Next, Paul wrote, "9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

HOW will the saints get to "live together with Him?" Of course what Paul has been talking about: by way of the RAPTURE. That is how "so shall we ever be with the Lord" or "get to live together with Him." These phrases are proof positive that Paul is STILL talking about the rapture, but giving us TIMING information: the rapture JUST BEFORE "The day."

What can we learn from verse 9? Only those left behind are appointed to wrath. God sets no appointments for us: His plan is to rapture us just before His wrath.  (Note: that means BEFORE the 6th seal where His wrath begins.) THEY are appointed to wrath, but WE are appointed to salvation (the rapture.) (We are "saved" from the sudden destruction by way of being caught up.)  Paul had just mentioned the Day of the Lord, so now he is adding to that information that the Day of the Lord is also WRATH. 

What can we learn from verse 10? That Paul is STILL talking about the rapture. "So shall we ever be with the Lord" and "get to live together with Him" are saying the same thing with different words. 

Next, Paul wrote, "Wherefore comfort yourselves together."  The TRUTH of the rapture is a comfort: we will not see God's wrath. We will be caught up BEFORE God's wrath.  On the other hand, believing we must go through the 70th week and through God's wrath would certainly NOT BE A COMFORT. 

Do you see how simple Paul taught us that the rapture or gathering comes just before the DAY and just before wrath?

not any timing of the gathering or the Lord's return in relation to any other defined event. Any definitive space/time moment gleaned from these passages is made up.

  I disagree. When Paul began writing the first verses of what is now chapter 5, His mind was very much still on the rapture. This is proven by "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

"Live together with Him" is saying what "so shall we ever be with the Lord" is saying: just in different words - showing us that Paul is still very much writing of the rapture. We will accomplish this "living together with Him" by way of the catching up. 

IN CONTEXT then, what did Paul mean here by "salvation?"  He is meaning, we are saved from the "sudden destruction" by way of being caught up. Paul could as well have written, "God has not appointed us to wrath, but to be caught up by our Lord Jesus Christ..."  Another translation has it "gain deliverance."

For "Salvation" or Soteria, Strong's has "deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation." 

In chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord" is by and through the catching up. Therefore, in chapter 5, the "so shall we ever be with the Lord" also is by and through the catching up. Paul is just giving us more information as to WHEN this catching up will be.  Next, Paul tells us to "comfort yourselves together."

In chapter 4, it was "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."  Again this is showing us that Paul is STILL writing of the rapture, but giving us more information. 

What EXACTLY is this "comfort?" It is us ESCAPING the wrath of God by way of the rapture.

Therefore I disagree with you: Paul is showing us a paradigm: a vision right in from of us: a comparison of what will happen with two groups of people when this "suddenly" takes place: At the same time, some get WRATH while others get raptured or caught up.  Make no mistake here: Paul is telling us that HIS COMING and the rapture will be the trigger for His wrath.

AT this sudden event (the dead in Christ suddenly flying up out of their graves) some get raptured, and some get left behind in His wrath.  This is Paul's message and his timing: JUST before wrath. 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Incorrect. The Lord's return and the gathering are what is being delayed until the beast is revealed. That day(the coming of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion and the man of sin is revealed.

"for [that day shall not come]," They only day mentioned is the coming of the Lord in conjunction with the gathering. 

" except there come a falling away first," If this is the 'departure' then it has to happen before the 'departure' of verse 1. So the Coming and Gathering cannot happen until the gathering happens? Really?

"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" This is what restrains the Coming and the Gathering, the revealing of the man of sin.

Can we please go by the words written, and not human imagination of what is written?

 

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The Lord's return and the gathering are what is being delayed until the beast is revealed.

only he who now letteth [is restraining] will let [will continue to restrain], until he be taken out of the way.  And then shall that Wicked be revealed  

Read it over and over: what happens when the restraining power is removed? Is it really "the gathering?" NO! It is the revealing that is delayed and held back. How can two ever agree when preconceptions blocks the understand what is written? What then is "being delayed?" It is the revealing. WHY is the revealing being delayed? Because ONLY GOD knows the proper time for this revealing. 

 

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That day(the coming of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion and the man of sin is revealed. They only day mentioned is the coming of the Lord in conjunction with the gathering.  

AS far as written out as "day," this is true. "Day of the Lord" or "Day of Christ" is written.  But in fact, Paul is talking about TWO different "days:" there will be "a day" when Jesus comes, the dead are raised, those alive are caught up, and the church escorted to heaven. Then there is ANOTHER day mentioned: The day of the Lord or the day of Christ. Take your pick: Christ is Lord, so it is the same day: a DARK day of destruction - a very DIFFERENT day than the rapture. Paul DID certainly write of "The Day of the Lord" in both letters, but in context, it is the dreaded day of wrath, not the wonderful day of the rapture. (They may well both come in the same 24 hour period since the day of wrath will come instantly after the rapture.) The darkness, fear, dread, terror: they all come a moment AFTER the rapture.

 

If we study all the end times scriptures, we find that the Day of the Lord will be TRIGGERED by the rapture and the rapture triggered by His coming. In other words, the rapture (a wonderful day) is OUTSIDE the "Day of the Lord," but will be the TRIGGER for that Day. 

The terms Paul uses:

Coming: His coming: from what we read in other scriptures, TWO more comings: this is His coming FOR His saints.

Gathering: He is coming next for the express purpose of gathering His saints OUT of the coming wrath. 

Day of the Lord (or Day of Christ) Some people IMAGINE this means the rapture and His coming FOR the rapture. Sorry, that is PRECONCEPTION and not scripture: go back to the Old Covenant and learn what "the day of the Lord" is: a DARK day of destruction; where God's plan is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. On the other hand, the time of the rapture will be a day just like TODAY; when people are thinking peace and safety.

THAT day: same as the day of the Lord: NOT the rapture, NOT the gathering, only DARKNESS and destruction.

Apostasia: a departing: Something "taken out of the way" (by an external force). Some think this is a departing from Christ or from Moses or from church, and the KJV translators called in a falling away - which, in my mind, simple does not fit with something "taken out of the way" by an external force. Note carefully that Paul never said who or what this departing was a departing FROM. Also note, this is a very SIGNIFICANT departing: THE Departing.

It is interesting how Strong's defines the first half of this compound word: APO

Of Separation: of the separation of a part from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken: 

I did not write this: Mr. Strong wrote it. Did he have the rapture in mind? NO one knows. All I can say is, this DEFINES the rapture perfectly.

Man of sin:  Just as other scriptures tell us, he will turn into the Beast once he is revealed. 

 

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If this is the 'departure' then it has to happen before the 'departure' of verse 1 

No it doesn't: that is only imagination.

 

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So the Coming and Gathering cannot happen until the gathering happens? 

This is the confusion that comes when someone does not understand that the Day of the Lord is a DARK day of destruction, NOT A bright day of rapture.The truth is, the Day of the Lord (that dark day of destruction) cannot come until first the church is caught out. We are simply NOT HERE when Wrath starts. (It does appear we will be here maybe a minute before wrath begins, but are snatched out JUST IN TIME.)

 

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"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" This is what restrains the Coming and the Gathering, the revealing of the man of sin. 

Sorry, but this idea is myth. The truth is, AFTER the departing (of the church) comes first, THEN the man of sin will be revealed (because the Holy Spirit working through the church will have been "taken out of the way" WITH the church) and when the man of sin is revealed, then all will know the DAY has started.  Go back and read it again: the restraining is preventing the REVEALING, not the coming.  Read it until you get it: but take off your preconceptions of what this is saying. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by iamlamad