BIG, BIG NEWS: RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE ON MARCH 14, 2023?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

iamlamad, Daniel is an example. His book is written in quite a "helter skelter" way, as you say. But you appear not to accept that, since you can't accept that Dan 8 makes end-time prophecies, so does Dan 7, Dan 9, Dan 11, Dan 12. The visions are scattered through the book and don't flow in a straightforward chronological order.

Daniel is written around several visions by different people and at different times. John saw one long vision that started with the book in the Father's hand before Jesus ascended, right through time to the 5th seal, where we are now, and then on into the future of the Day of the Lord, then the 70th week, then His coming to Armageddon, the 1000 year reign of Christ, the white throne judgment, the new heaven and new earth, and on into eternity. However,  you have it all figured out, so of course you won't agree. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

iamlamad, if Moses' body decayed in his grave, then he would just be a spirit in heaven right now. But, no, he has an immortal body right now in heaven, the same body that he appeared in at the Mount of Transfiguration, along with Elijah who also has in immortal body, and Jesus, whose body was probably transfigured into its immortal state.

So, you've got Moses and Elijah preaching Christ in Jerusalem while it is being trampled? No, makes no sense. And then you start playing around with them arriving 3 1/2 days before the mid-point and getting killed 3 1/2 days before the end of the "week." No. They are killed in the middle of the "week" and rise 3 1/2 days later to show they will return 3 1/2 years later--similar to Jesus rising at dawn of the 3rd day to show He would return at dawn of the 3rd millennium. No, everything gets completed by the end of the 1335 days. There is no wrath in the Sabbath Millennium. That would be unthinkable with King Jesus on the throne.

I am afraid that you are the one that is off, because you are locked in to Rev being basically chronological. It's not. When we're going up together at the rapture, perhaps on Mar 14, 2023, I'll be sure not to tell you, "I told you so." Ha!

At the very least, the elders of the Old Testament were raised when Jesus rose.  But before that - God is well able to glorify a human spirit as He did with Moses and Elijah. 

It is OK if you don't believe in Parentheses in Revelation. Your answer is to move the two witnesses out of chapter 11 where John saw them appear, back to the 7th seal where the week begins. You are not the only one that does this, so you have company. God will have 144,000 witnesses in the first half of the week, but ONLY TWO for the last half, where they will be desperately needed.  I know Revelation to be extremely chronological, so I will not move them to the first half of the week. 

We will continue to disagree.  When these things begin to happen, we will be in heaven and won't care!

Question: a very important question: are you expecting Jesus tonight? Or do you believe in your heart that you will see other things first?

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

I wonder who that might be. The person with no preconceptions? 

This is a bold stroke of illogic; Because another doctrine is labeled a preconception it's inherently incorrect. 

Evidence and fact establish truth not logical fallacies.

All I am saying is, most people read with preconceived glasses on - or read with preconceptions. It is very difficult NOT to. Perhaps I should say ALL read with preconceptions. It is difficult to lay every belief aside as we read. The more one has read a given verse, the most difficult it is to lay aside what one believes that verse to say. 

For example, the dating of the first seal. I know Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals when He ascended: 32 AD.  You know something different. WHY is that? I have a history with chapters 4 & 5 that is different than you, so see them differently. Yet, we read the very same verses. I am sure we both have good reading abilities. The only explanation is preconceptions. 

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

iamlamad, first off the Amplified Version is a paraphrase, not a translation. But I'll use it anyway. Even it doesn't agree with what you have written. 

First off, recognize that the Israeli Jews are committing horrible transgression in this passage. They are sacrificing when they should not be sacrificing, because Christ made the final sacrifice. Even the Ampified gives a hint of this, but they get the main point of the transgression wrong:

¹² And the host [the chosen people] was given [to the wicked horn] together with the continual burnt offering because of the transgression [of God’s people—their abounding irreverence, ungodliness, and lack of piety].

So, God actually uses the Jewish Antichrist to accomplish His good purpose of judgment. He actually cleanses and restores the Temple in a sense by stopping the sinful sacrifices and He judges the Israeli Jews by trampling them. He does not profane the Temple by stopping the sacrifices. In fact, the word "profane" is not even in the text. If he takes his seat in the Temple at this time and displays himself to be God (the abomination of desolation), then of course he does profane it in that way.

Here's another translation of verse 11. Check out the Hebrew here:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/8.htm

Here is the word for word translation there: "And even as high as the Prince of the host he exalted [himself] and by him were taken away the daily [sacrifices] and was cast down the place of His sanctuary."

I think this is the better translation: and by him (the Jewish Antichrist) the daily sacrifice was taken away, because it was sinful. Your translation has it this way: and from Him (the Prince of the host, Michael or God) the daily sacrifice was taken away.  To me, this makes no sense, because God clearly is using the Jewish Antichrist to judge Israel and to take away a sinful sacrifice which causes Him horror.

As well, it is clear that this is referring to the time of the end just like the 1290 and 1335 days do. As I point out, Dan 8.23-26 is clearly about the Jewish Antichrist, not Antiochus. Verse 26 says it "pertains to many days" just like Dan 12.4,9.

Clive, do you know what you are saying? Antiochus defiled the temple in like 176 BC. That was BEFORE Christ came. They were still under the Old Covenant. Jesus made no attempt whatsoever to stop the daily sacrifices when He was around the temple. It was LAW. He did not come to do away with the law, He came to fulfill it. 

By the way, I disagree: the Amplified is a translation, but with added comments when a Greek or Hebrew word might have more than one meaning.  When one takes out all the brackets and added stuff, it is the ASB translation, updated. I think it is a very good study help. I would rather have the Wuest translation,. but it is not online. 

God clearly is using the Jewish Antichrist to judge Israel and to take away a sinful sacrifice which causes Him horror.  You are half right here: the reason Antiochus was allowed to do what he did was because Israel as a nation had drifted far way from God. Therefore, God could not stop what was happening. Israel was living the curse of the law because their heart was not in the law. Deut. 28 makes it clear: if they followed the law they would be blessed; if they failed to follow the Law, they would be under a curse. you are mistaken in thinking the daily sacrifices were a horror to God.  They were still under the law! 

He actually cleanses and restores the Temple in a sense by stopping the sinful sacrifices   You have it backwards. The sacrifices were STARTED BY GOD. It was LAW then and they were under an obligation to follow the law. It was those daily sacrifices that were covering their sin! 

I wonder, do you give ANY consideration to TIME?

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All I am saying is, most people read with preconceived glasses on - or read with preconceptions. It is very difficult NOT to. Perhaps I should say ALL read with preconceptions. It is difficult to lay every belief aside as we read. The more one has read a given verse, the most difficult it is to lay aside what one believes that verse to say. 

For example, the dating of the first seal. I know Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals when He ascended: 32 AD.  You know something different. WHY is that? I have a history with chapters 4 & 5 that is different than you, so see them differently. Yet, we read the very same verses. I am sure we both have good reading abilities. The only explanation is preconceptions. 

I don't disagree. Preconceptions certainly are a factor. I think we all suffer from this malady:

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof," - Genesis 3

"For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions." - 1 John 2

We want to be right, important, acknowledged, in the eyes of others. Where we need to be is approved in the eyes of our Father and our Savior.

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

Diaste, further again, if you want to put the 2nd Coming at the end of 1290 days, I have no problem with that. But not any "Gathering" at the same time. He may be protecting and fighting for His saved Israeli remnant in the last 45 days.

I honestly don't know. One of the first things I heard is that the 30 days and the 45 days after that come after the end of the week for purposes that include cleansing, restoration, gathering the survivors, the arrival of the City, etc., before the Millennial Reign begins. I guess that made some sense to me and maybe it's the right idea. The more I read about it in Dan 12 it seems appropriate the 75 days may be within the final half with the overlap in the first half. But it's possible it's just a bit of personal need for order and neatness, a clear finish, a crisp end where all things culminate at the final moment. 

I have no sure insight. And you may be correct. I have done a little subtraction of time frames and maybe wrath is a very short time, like a month. I would not think it would last very long, the world was flooded in 40 days.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

Diaste, further of course, I do not agree with the 2nd Coming/ Gathering placement.

"

1) So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 

2) For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

3) Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

 4) The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

5) At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

6) They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

7)  And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call,

8) and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

21 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

when Moses and Elijah also descend to Jerusalem.

Right timing. Maybe Enoch and Elijah? I do think Moses and Elijah would make a powerful statement just by their presence apart from plaguing the earth.

 

21 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

 Of course, there will be a second resurrection at the very end of the 70 Week for the final judgment.

This adds a resurrection. Pretrib has to have one before the week begins, one after GT (Rev 7) and the one where the second death has power over the judged. That's a minimum of 3 where there are only two.

21 hours ago, CLIVE CAMPBELL said:

Also, the saved Israeli remnant will still be on the earth at that time and I presume will be given immortal bodies at the same time. Will there be other saved people, Jews or Gentiles, on the earth at that time? Some saved Jews outside of Israel perhaps. Saved Gentiles? Perhaps, but maybe God won't save any Gentiles after the 70 Week starts. These are unknowns.

All of the above I'm sure. We know the Jews flee to the valley in Zech 14 at the day Jesus returns. We also know "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" from Zech 14.

So there are both Jews and Gentiles left alive after the end of the week going into the Millennial Kingdom. What position or destiny these people hold I do not know.

 

[CLIVE CAMPBELL]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Daniel is written around several visions by different people and at different times. John saw one long vision that started with the book in the Father's hand before Jesus ascended, right through time to the 5th seal, where we are now, and then on into the future of the Day of the Lord, then the 70th week, then His coming to Armageddon, the 1000 year reign of Christ, the white throne judgment, the new heaven and new earth, and on into eternity. However,  you have it all figured out, so of course you won't agree. 

iamlamad, obviously, we both think we have some things figured out, but we don't agree. One of us is wrong or both. And it really doesn't matter in the end, does it?

[CLIVE CAMPBELL]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question: a very important question: are you expecting Jesus tonight? Or do you believe in your heart that you will see other things first?

iamlamad, no, I am not expecting the resurrection and rapture tonight, as the daily sacrifices have not yet started and gone on for 1040 days. So, yes, I believe that I will see that first. I likely will also see first a big regional Mideast war, where Israel will invade Syria past Damascus, southern Lebanon and the East Bank. I believe that Israel will drive the Palestinians into Jordan. This will enable the Dome of the Rock to be disassembled and the 4th Temple to be built. It is possible that this war will happen after the resurrection and rapture, but I'm guessing it won't. If I'm wrong about these things, I'm wrong. No big deal.

[CLIVE CAMPBELL]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All I am saying is, most people read with preconceived glasses on - or read with preconceptions. It is very difficult NOT to. Perhaps I should say ALL read with preconceptions. It is difficult to lay every belief aside as we read. The more one has read a given verse, the most difficult it is to lay aside what one believes that verse to say. 

For example, the dating of the first seal. I know Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals when He ascended: 32 AD.  You know something different. WHY is that? I have a history with chapters 4 & 5 that is different than you, so see them differently. Yet, we read the very same verses. I am sure we both have good reading abilities. The only explanation is preconceptions. 

iamlamad, as an example of that, I see the seals very differently. I believe they are referring to the Lamb breaking the seals of the Old Testament to Israel before His ascension in 30 AD, not 32 AD. Jesus opened the eyes of His chosen Jews at that time. That is how I see all 7 seals. It is not as though there is some literal scroll in heaven that Jesus unseals. It figuratively was written inside and on the back to show it covered 2 millennia--similar to there being 2 tablets of the law. So, yes, we all see it differently.