An Awkward Moment in the Pre-tribulationists’ Honeymoon...

[Omegaman 3.0]

24 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Rapture is simply described as five wise virgins taken to the wedding, the foolish left behind n screamed because great Tribulation is coming.

That is a nice interpretation, but not was the Bible says. When talking about the virgins, notice the context. Matt 25 begins with "Then".

Then when? Matt 25 is the same conversation as Matt 24, there were no chapter numbers when it was written, so, the most naturals understand of the passage, is then, just after the tribulation, it will be like this. If you want to make the wedding about the rapture, that is fine, that the rapture is still after the tribulation, unless you want to dispense with normal ways of thinking and uses of language. Your choice!

[R. Hartono]

32 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is a nice interpretation, but not was the Bible says. When talking about the virgins, notice the context. Matt 25 begins with "Then".

Then when?

You need to note the foolish virgins DID NOT scream before the wise ones are taken and what this means to you.

Edited May 4, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Precisely 10,000 of them...And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

David,

Its not exactly 10,000 as many translations showed :

https://biblehub.com/jude/1-14.htm

As explained in Rev 19 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

This armies are simply the Great Multitude before the Throne who will follow Jesus to Armageddon battle after the wedding in Rev 19.

The battle between angels and devils took place in heaven (Rev 12) for the posession of heaven.

The final battle between mankind took place on earth at Armageddon battle, Jesus against antichrist with each armies of men, for the posession of earth and the winner will rule with each armies.

Edited May 4, 2020 by R. Hartono

[dhchristian]

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Its not exactly 10,000 as many translations showed :

Jude is Quoting Enoch, in Which it is 10,000 as well. The Wording of the verse can be open to any number as some translations point out, But when the source text and the Quoted both agree I tend to stick with that translation, such as is the case here. 

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

As explained in Rev 19 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Yes, the saints are given these Robes at the fifth seal, and told to wait a little longer. And white robes were given unto every one of them;

Compare this with the garment of the bride And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (rev. 19:8)

Do You see the difference? Though intricately linked, the Saints are not the Bride, Nor the bride the saints, The army of the Lord consists of the Saints, the Bride is the great multitude. If You are seeing this, now consider this verse.

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor. 11:2)

This is Paul a saint, presenting the Corinthian church as the bride. Do you see it? 

[The Light]

20 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

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Anyone who has seen me comment about eschatology on there forums, knows that I an no pre-tribber, I find the doctrine without Biblical support.

Understood. Just a note, the Jews can't find any Biblical support that Jesus is the Messiah, but I am convinced that it is there.
 

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What I realizes is this:

I am a post-trib believer, but that does not get me out of any quandary.

I am both a pre-trib believer and a pre-wrath (post-trib) believer.

Perhaps you could take a peek at these verses:

Rev 5

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I see 24 elders and 4 beasts and they say that they have redeemed by thy blood our of every kindred and tongue and people and nation.

It seems obvious to me that 24 elders and 4 beasts can't be redeemed out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. There are more kindred's and tongues and people and nations than 28. What are all these people from every kindred and tongue and people and nation doing in heaven and how did they get there?

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Before I came to know my savior, and accept Him as Lord, I too deserved that fate. In fact, I STILL deserve that fate! However, I have the privilege of being the recipient of HIs grace, and escaping His justice, because He paid the penalty for my sins.

 

Amen, even as all believers.

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The character of this war does not change with the timing of the rapture, that aspect is the same, no matter when the resurrection/rapture occurs, but it is an interesting observation.

What it points out, is the urgency, of spreading the gospel in the hopes that God will reach the unsaved, so that none of their blood, is on our hands!
Thanks for the thought provoking thread. And yes, pure and clean, made righteous, washed in His blood is what His chosen are, even if that scenario is a bit grisly! We do not take pleasure in the death or fate of the unrighteous, we are grateful that He has given us His righteousness!

 

Very well put.

 

[simplejeff]

18 minutes ago, The Light said:

Understood. Just a note, the Jews can't find any Biblical support that Jesus is the Messiah, but I am convinced that it is there.

For starters,  read the account of Jesus on the road to Emmaus with the two men who thought Jesus was still dead.

 

From TORAH, PROPHETS, and PSALMS,   JESUS REVEALED much about Himself to them from the SCRIPTURES, as Jesus' Father Directed Jesus to do.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 2:11 AM, Revelation Man said:

And how does THE ABOVE FACT change THIS FACT ? Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {And we see BELOW who these are that is being spoken of by looking back at verses 7 and 8, Jesus didn't SPECIFY it for no reason, the Saints/Bride of course returns with Jesus, have you ever heard of a Marriage Supper that doosn't include THE BRIDE ? Armageddon is the Marriage Supper.}

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

Hi Rev Man,

So let`s look at what you have said.

Marriage of the Lamb. The title of the Lord, `Lamb,` relates to Israel`s sacrifices. (John 1: 29)

Wife - already married, Israel has been the wife of God. (Isa. 54)

Made herself ready, righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19: 8) Israel had to do righteous acts. (Heb. 11: 23)

[Marilyn C]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 9:43 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi NonprofitProphet,

Yes that is all against scripture and quite wrong. Silly even. Now you may be surprised to hear that I am a pre-tribber BUT do not believe that version that has been `sold` to people for decades. So what have I been taught and see from God`s word. (And I know others here on Worthy believe this also.) 

1. The Church is the Body of Christ, (Eph. 1: 23) while Israel is described as the `bride,` (Isa. 54) and also the New Jerusalem, (Rev. 21: 2) OT saints, (Heb. 11: 16)

2. The Church will be raptured when it is mature in the knowledge of Christ, (Eph. 4: 13) & the time for the first restoration of rulership in God`s kingdom. (Acts 3: 20 & 21) 

3. The Church is righteous for it is His Body. (1 Cor. 1: 30)

4. The armies which come with the Lord at the end of the trib, is the angelic armies, (Matt. 25: 31) They are holy and pure angels. (eg. Rev.15: 6) 

Any questions?

BTW very glad you have pointed out the horrendous errors of that false, demonic doctrine.

Just in case you missed my post. That is the correct pre-trib, doctrine.

[The Light]

On 5/2/2020 at 7:48 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Michael,

I agree that many have `white robes` etc as written in God`s word. And the 144,000 who `follow,` are obedient and not run around the universe etc following after Jesus. It is a picture of their obedience.

Now let us look at who Jesus actually says comes back with Him as His army.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the HOLY ANGELS with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man .....comes in His own glory, & in His Father`s glory & in the glory of the HOLY ANGELS.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with HIS MIGHTY ANGELS.` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

When He returns with his angels He sends them to gather the elect. This is not the armies of God returning to the earth.

Matt 24

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All the scriptures that you listed have to do with the event that occurs at Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[Marilyn C]

26 minutes ago, The Light said:

When He returns with his angels He sends them to gather the elect. This is not the armies of God returning to the earth.

Matt 24

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All the scriptures that you listed have to do with the event that occurs at Rev 14.

 

 

Hi The Light,

So let`s have a closer look -

` When the Son of Man comes in His glory and ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE GATHERED BEFORE HIM, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.` (Matt. 25: 31 - 33)