THE GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION IS FOR ISRAEL

[douge]

1 hour ago, Roar said:

In Christian theology, the term Body of Christ has two main but separate meanings: it may refer to Jesus' words over the bread at the celebration of the Jewish feast of Passover that "This is my body" in Luke 22:19–20 (see Last Supper), or it may refer to all individuals who are "in Christ" 1 Corinthians 12:12–14 

Why is accepted theology taken to be right above the Word?

Jesus speaking of his physical bodily sacrifice does not refer to the body of Christ, with Christ the head of the body, the church.

The believing remnant of Israel, are also in Christ, however, they are not in the body (Romans 16:7).

Edited July 1, 2020 by douge

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, douge said:

Why is accepted theology taken to be right above the Word?

Jesus speaking of his physical bodily sacrifice does not refer to the body of Christ, with Christ the head of the body, the church.

The believing remnant of Israel, are also in Christ, however, they are not in the body.

You seem to begin with odd statements and then digress. Please just tell us what it is you are searching for and why?

 

[douge]

28 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

You seem to begin with odd statements and then digress. Please just tell us what it is you are searching for and why?

 

When I said "Why is accepted theology taken to be right above the Word?"

I was responding to the statement made by Roar that consensus dictates truth:

"In Christian theology, the term Body of Christ has two main but separate meanings:"

I am only conveying what I have learned in the Word, to anyone who would like to evaluate what the Bible conveys with an open mind.

I am still waiting for a verse where Luke said anything in regard to the body of Christ.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by douge

[Justin Adams]

22 minutes ago, douge said:

When I said "Why is accepted theology taken to be right above the Word?"

I was responding to the statement made by Roar that consensus dictates truth:

"In Christian theology, the term Body of Christ has two main but separate meanings:"

I am only conveying what I have learned in the Word, to anyone who would like to evaluate what the Bible conveys with an open mind.

I am still waiting for a verse where Luke said anything in regard to the body of Christ.

 

 

 

 

It seems to me, while studying this, that the 'the church' and 'the body of Christ' are synonymous. Taken in the Gospel's own  context, there seems little difference between the two phrases. However, it also seems that nobody can completely agree about this, so I leave it up to you to decide. 'Church', or 'Body of Christ' appear to refer to the same 'entity' or collection of believers regardless of Israeli or Gentile origin.

[douge]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

NOT TRUE  "we would have to believe all written is to be applied to us". 

 We just need to rightly divide what is written and apply it.  What is the subject.  To WHOM is it written.  For when? 

I have been thinking on your reply.

If you are saying there is only one gospel as conveyed by Jesus and the twelve, and Paul, then at the same time you are saying, that by rightly dividing the same passages you are in essence saying that certain passages do not apply to us, then it is arbitrary what passages we are to apply to ourselves...I think it is one or another...I for one think we need to rightly divide the scriptures as to what we apply directly.

[douge]

4 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

It seems to me, while studying this, that the 'the church' and 'the body of Christ' are synonymous. Taken in the Gospel's own  context, there seems little difference between the two phrases. However, it also seems that nobody can completely agree about this, so I leave it up to you to decide. 'Church', or 'Body of Christ' appear to refer to the same 'entity' or collection of believers regardless of Israeli or Gentile origin.

I appreciate your answer...however the purpose of the remnant of Israel and the body of Christ is diluted...the remnant will reconcile the earth...the body of Christ will reconcile the heavens. We are not at odds if we believe Christ has by his redemption and blood has justified us unto eternal life.

[douge]

On 6/30/2020 at 10:28 PM, DeighAnn said:

NOT TRUE  "we would have to believe all written is to be applied to us". 

 

On 6/30/2020 at 10:28 PM, DeighAnn said:

 We just need to rightly divide what is written and apply it.  What is the subject.  To WHOM is it written.  For when?   

I am aware you are not responding, but for others to consider, I came across these verses:

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You can not say there is only one gospel and Jesus, the twelve, and Paul all teach the same gospel and everything written would apply to us as a result, and at the same time, say we need to rightly divide. If you believe the gospel of the kingdom Jesus taught is for us, then you need to accept that Jesus wants all things he taught them to apply to us as well, based on these verses.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/30/2020 at 7:38 AM, Heleadethme said:

I don't disagree with all that you are saying.  You and others might enjoy this:

2Ch 6:33

Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.

 

The Jew and Gentile ekklesia/church, born of Christ, is nothing less than the mystery of God from the foundation of the world.  The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.  It’s not about “Israel after the flesh”…it’s about the whole world now.  Israel after the flesh was a type and shadow of things to come (an ‘ensample’ and allegory of the coming body of Christ, the church)  and a vessel so to speak, for the coming  Messiah/Christ to be born in the flesh and fulfill the Law and the prophecies.  The promises made to Israel after the flesh were and are all fulfilled in Christ/Messiah.  They may come to Him at any time, whosoever wills, He has not cast them off irrevocably.  And they do need to come to Him because a Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly…after the spirit, in the heart, through faith.  Yes including all the faithful Jewish saints of old…as well as don’t forget all the believing Gentile saints of old….Abel, Enoch, Noah, Ruth, Rahab, Naaman, widow of Zarephath, etc.  They all belong to the household of God, the Israel of God, and will all be made perfect with us who believed after the crucifixion.

Shalom, Heleadethme.

Sorry about the delay. I tried to start this post several times, ran out of time to complete it, and lost it over and over again.

No, the truth is that there are MANY prophecies that MUST be fulfilled ONLY by and for the children of Israel, because it was to THEM that the promises of the future Kingdom were made! It is NOT true that ...

"Israel after the flesh was a type and shadow of things to come (an ‘ensample’ and allegory of the coming body of Christ, the church)  and a vessel so to speak, for the coming  Messiah/Christ to be born in the flesh and fulfill the Law and the prophecies. The promises made to Israel after the flesh were and are all fulfilled in Christ/Messiah."

You obviously don't know how close to error you are! That's Replacement Theology you're spouting! The "body of Christ, the church" does NOT and CANNOT replace "Israel after the flesh!" For that to be true, God would make Himself a LIAR to all those He had His prophets write, and we KNOW that cannot be true! The "Israel of God" IS the physical children of Israel!

He has not given their promises to you instead! He has BLESSED you to have a small PART within those promises! Don't "boast against the branches!" (Some would say, you're LUCKY to have a small part, although we know that "luck" had nothing to do with it!)

Gentile "Christians," who think they're ALL that, feel that somehow the "church" (which is usually capitalized as in the Roman Catholic "Church") is where Jewish believers in the Messiah are "graffed."

THAT'S BACKWARDS!

It is WE who are Gentile believers who are "graffed" into the children of Israel, the Olive Tree, over which the Messiah (which means "King Apparent") will rule and reign! Gentile believers who call themselves "Christians" ought NEVER to think more highly of themselves than they were given!

Look again at Romans 11, which is PAUL'S words to the Gentile Roman believers! Read these words slowly and with proper emphasis:

Romans 11:7-32 (KJV)

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (the chosen ones) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written,

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear"[Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10]); unto this day.

9 And David saith,

"Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." (Psalm 69:22-23)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? God forbid (Greek: mee genoito! = "Never may-it-be!"): but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh (Israel), and might save some of them. 15 For if the (temporary) casting away (shelving) of them (Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them (Israel) be, but life from the dead (the RESURRECTION)?! 16 For if the firstfruit (Yeshua`) be holy (set apart), the lump (from which the firstfruit is a part) is also holy (set apart): and if the root (Yeshua`) be holy (set apart), so (set apart) are the branches!

17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (from) a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 BOAST NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root (you are not carrying the Root), but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; (Okay,....) because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For if God spared not the NATURAL branches, take heed lest he also SPARE NOT THEE! 

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:

on them which fell, severity; (God was severe to them!)
but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise THOU ALSO shalt be cut off! (Gulp!)

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster tree), and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the NATURAL branches (same DNA as the "good olive tree"), be graffed into THEIR OWN "OLIVE TREE?"

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), LEST YE SHOULD BE WISE IN YOUR OWN CONCEITS; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel SHALL BE SAVED (RESCUED; DELIVERED): as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion (Zion or Tsiyown) the DELIVERER, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are "enemies" for your sakes: BUT  AS TOUCHING THE ELECTION, THEY ARE "BELOVED" FOR THE FATHERS' (THE PATRIARCHS') SAKES! 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (I.e., God doesn't change His mind and renege on His gifts or on His calling!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these (Israel) also now not believed, that through your mercy they (Israel) also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded (you and) them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (you and them)!

DON'T be "wise in your own conceits!"

On 6/30/2020 at 7:38 AM, Heleadethme said:

Isa 34:4

All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Rev 6:14

The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Isa 25:7-8

And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

The veil that exists between heaven and this fallen earth (which is currently bound in futility and time – death)  will be taken away……..why every eye will see Him……His heavenly kingdom will come to earth and God will dwell with us.  The earth itself will be renewed by fire, and corruptible will put on incorruptible.  I think of it that earth will be part of heaven once heaven takes it over so to speak…the restoration of all things.  I still am not able to reconcile the timing of everything though…what takes place before the thousand years or after the thousand years, or how to think of that….when “time will be no more”, etc.

Oh, my!  This is SO wrong! The "heavens" are the "SKIES!" Haven't you ever seen a video of the mushroom cloud of a nuclear explosion?! I'm not saying that's what this is, but such an event can happen for other reasons, too, and in this particular case, it will happen with a huge meteor (meteorite) shower! (Isaiah 34:4 and Revelation 6:14 are describing such a "shower!" First, the smaller, herald meteors will be "dissolved" in the atmosphere. Then, the larger meteors will fall THROUGH the atmosphere and STRIKE the earth in many places, becoming METEORITES! In fact, Revelation's meteor shower doesn't end until chapter 9!

Isaiah 25:7-8 doesn't occur until AFTER the Millennium - the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign, which doesn't BEGIN until our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah of God returns! Isaiah 25:7-8 reflect Revelation 21:1-4! A "THOUSAND YEARS" is a VERY LONG TIME!

Finally, "time shall be no more" means that "DELAY shall be no more!" It isn't the absence of time (as some have suggested); it's the end of a waiting period! Time is a NECESSARY construct when physical things move through 3D-space. Whenever a thing moves, we measure its speed by time ("miles PER HOUR," distance PER TIME, for instance)! Eternity is not the absence of time; eternity is INFINITE time!

And, remember! "Heaven" is the SKY throughout the Bible, usually referring to our earth's ATMOSPHERE!

[Retrobyter]

On 7/1/2020 at 3:57 PM, douge said:

I appreciate your answer...however the purpose of the remnant of Israel and the body of Christ is diluted...the remnant will reconcile the earth...the body of Christ will reconcile the heavens. We are not at odds if we believe Christ has by his redemption and blood has justified us unto eternal life.

Shalom, douge, and happy Independence Day (as celebrated this year)!

And, HERE is the rub! By divorcing the two groups, you have succeeded in dividing the earth from the heavens!

You don't get it, yet. The "heavens" (both the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos" or its plural "ouranoi") mean the "SKIES!" And, as can be shown in BOTH "Testaments," the terms are referring to this earth's ATMOSPHERE (where the clouds form and the birds fly)! It is often put in the plural because they refer to both the day skies and the night skies. There's also the thought embedded that different places have slightly different skies.

There IS a reference to outer space in Hebrew (the "heaven of the heavens," shmeey hashaamayim) and in Greek ("above the heaven," "epouranios," the combination of "epi," meaning "above," and "ouranos," meaning "sky"), but NEITHER OF THESE refer to some place called "God's abode" that people capitalize and call "Heaven!"

ON THE OTHER HAND, that which most CALL "Heaven," the New Jerusalem, IS being built in outer space and is therefore called an "epouranios" city, a city "from above the sky." It's the NEW JERUSALEM - the CITY - that has the gemstone foundations, the pearly gates, and the streets of gold, not some "Heaven!" Did you know that it's far easier to grow large, faultless crystals in space than it is on earth? So, if you have a city that has walls of jasper (the red crystal in bloodstone) as well as a first foundation of jasper, and this city is 12,000 furlongs long, wide, and high, these huge crystals would be possible if built in space!

Furthermore, we are NEVER told in the Scriptures that we "go to heaven" when we die. To the contrary, we are told that the New Jerusalem lands HERE, upon the New Earth, after the earth has been renovated after the Millennium. We don't go to the city; the city comes to US!

[douge]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, HERE is the rub! By divorcing the two groups, you have succeeded in dividing the earth from the heavens!

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Both heaven and earth will be gathered in one