Learn a lesson from the Great Awakening ...

[Behold]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world.  Nobody put it on Him, He took upon Himself, so yes, it is true. 

To keep the topic in context, you are not held responsible if someone else does something wrong, they are.  You are held responsible for what you do.  (Using "you" as a general term)

Jesus is held responsible for your sin.  As i told you.

 It was God who placed it on Him...as the "CUP" of wrath...  .  That is why Jesus said...>"not MY WILL, but THINE be Done".

Thats in the NT,.  onelight

[TheBlade]

"The Laodicean church age" yeah I've heard some talk about the "Churches" Christ addressed as "ages" and how we would be the last one. We being ALL.. not the ones we disagree with For me just WAY to many *ISM's.  And each *ISM's knows they are right... ok praise God.

There are what over 29million Churches in the world. How many in our home town that we've never been to. How about the Churches in Iran, China? On and on. To just simple apply Laodicean to all.. Christ never did that. Is each Church an age? Sure I can see it but its not written. And if the holy Spirit says anything He will ALWAYS back it up with the word. And we should always read above and below a verse or we can make that verse say anything we wish.

For me its what if this is true going to do about it? See with GOD it always goes UP so to speak.. always for good always to point to Christ always to give Him all the glory and praise... made myself happy PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS!  so.. bring it before Him.. stand in the gap for them.. always praying and in the spirit..IF God showed us something..

 

This is the BEST TIME to be alive! Something wonderful is about to Happen. I love the song playing now by Petra "Praise Ye The lord"

 

 

[OneLight]

48 minutes ago, Behold said:

Jesus is held responsible for your sin.  As i told you.

 It was God who placed it on Him...as the "CUP" of wrath...  .  That is why Jesus said...>"not MY WILL, but THINE be Done".

Thats in the NT,.  onelight

I guess it comes down to semantics again.  Yes, Gods plan for salvation included Jesus taking our sins upon Him on the cross.  There is no doubt about it, yet show me one time in scripture, outside of it being Gods plan created from the very beginning, that one person came up to Christ and told Him that He was responsible for the sins of the world.  You can't because it is not there.  Even in the beginning, Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent, but nobody blamed God.  I find it odd that you are trying to compare God to man.

[dhchristian]

16 hours ago, Behold said:

Scripture and verse?

I am describing church history, Not biblical History. Asuza was just one move of many going on around the world at the time, and in society as whole, It is the move from Modernism to postmodernism. From the harsh truths of the Victorian era, the suppression of passion and emotion to its release. The History is the People of the Holiness movement were blocked out of the Methodist churches, because of doctrinal concerns (textualism) they sought the Baptism of fire ,the experience and they received it. If You ever read the accounts and how this spread in the course of several years all around the world, There is no way this was anything but a move of the Holy Ghost. Most of the people involved were poor and uneducated, Just like Paul speaks of, with the weak of the world to confound the wise. (1 Cor. 1;27) But Like all great movements they eventually get corrupted, and the Power has left them. Most of the "later movements" were false movements, But there is going to be one final revival and that  which will be unlike any in church history and it will involve the gift of discernment falling upon them that fear the LORD and are truly seeking Holiness.

Where is this found in scripture? Malachi 3:16-18. This revival will usher in the day burning like an oven in Malachi 4, In which our works will be tried by fire, and those who have built on the foundation of the cross with hay and stubble will see their works burn up, but those who have built with Gold, silver  and fine stones will endure.

But alas you do not believe in striving for Holiness and would rather quench the Spirit.  You do not see the need for a Christian to reach repentance and anguish and brokenness over sinfulness. In Fact you reject the very doctrines upon which Paul bases that passage of what we build on the foundation...

¹⁰ According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

¹¹ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

¹² Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

¹³ Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

¹⁴ If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

¹⁵ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

¹⁶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

¹⁷ If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

¹⁸ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

¹⁹ For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. ( 1 Cor 3)

 

¹⁶ Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

¹⁷ And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

¹⁸ Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

² But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

³ And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

This is what this stubborn Dumb ass is trying to warn you about, But Like Balaam you instead continue to smite the ass. You sit there and look down on the Poor and weak from your pedestal of Pride unable to see these passages are referring to the likes of you, Self appointed teachers who are unable to hear what the Spirit IS saying to the church, and in so doing are quenching the Spirit.

This is the denial of the Laodicean church, assuming they are good with God, when they are poor pitiable wretched blind and naked and your textualism keeps you from hearing the warnings being sent to you, and in so doing you are making proselytes of others here who follow your self deception and delusion.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Peter 4:17-18) 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by George
Notice what is CROSSED through ... this would be a personal attack ... you just called Justin weak in the faith ... figure out a way to discuss it without the personal attack.

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, dhchristian said:

What if I prove to you there is no more Philadelphian church around today? And that we are all Laodiceans would you listen to what I say or would you get defensive about this? Because I have done this before and that person is now totally reprobate in his thinking and I do not want to push you there. I Would be willing to do this in a soap box debate But Only if you are capable of receiving this, as it will change your whole view of prophetic scripture. 

Suffice it to say for now, when the Philadelphian church fell into textualism, their candle was quenched.

I agree with JustPassingthru, the Body of Christ is not only alive and well but coming to the final stage before being `caught away.`

`till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11)

 

To think that the Lord could only build a weak & sick Body is heresy, but mainly ignorance I would think on your part. This is your quote - 

The church today is sick and on its deathbed, Whether that sickness is complacency or intellectualism, or heresy.... What is even worse is she is denial that she is sick and dying, instead she is in delusion of her grandeur and vitality. It is a sad state to be in.

 

Have you been able to look across the world into all the believers hearts? Would you like to say that to those being martyred today?

Have you any idea  what the Lord the Head of the Body has been doing for these past 2 centuries and across the world?

 

How does the Body of Christ Mature.

 

The Apostle Paul gave the early disciples the whole counsel of God. They were taught the full revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes.

`For I (Paul) have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)

 

Here is a summary of the main truths, then the errors that came in and finally the restoring of those truths through the centuries.

 

1. Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)

2. Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)

3. Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)

4. Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)

5. Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)

 

6. Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)

7. Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)

8. Methodist - Holiness. (1738)

9. Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)

 10. Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916)

 

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.

 

When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,

Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)

[Behold]

8 hours ago, OneLight said:

I guess it comes down to semantics again.  Yes, Gods plan for salvation included Jesus taking our sins upon Him on the cross.  There is no doubt about it, yet show me one time in scripture, outside of it being Gods plan created from the very beginning, that one person came up to Christ and told Him that He was responsible for the sins of the world.  You can't because it is not there.  Even in the beginning, Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent, but nobody blamed God.  I find it odd that you are trying to compare God to man.

Will you  show us a verse that says that Jesus leaves the body and spirit of a born again Christian. ???????   I'll keep asking you, as you said you posted it, but you never have.  Time to be honest.

Also, i never implied that Jesus was the reason for the sin of the world , i only stated that Christ bore the judgement due all mankind for their transgressions as God sent Him for this purpose.  = This is Jesus on the Cross becoming the sin of the world.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Behold

[leah777]

We, as individuals, are church, yes?

Many are wonderful God blessed born again living people doing good things on earth and giving their lives for Him.

How can 'church' be dead when such are here, and always have been through history?

Perhaps I don't understand what is meant by "church" here in this thread.

[Behold]

5 minutes ago, leah777 said:

We, as individuals, are church, yes?

Many are wonderful God blessed born again living people doing good things on earth and giving their lives for Him.

How can 'church' be dead when such are here, and always have been through history?

Perhaps I don't understand what is meant by "church" here in this thread.

As you stated,  all the born again are the "body of Christ"..... the living CHURCH of God.......the Bride of Christ.

[dhchristian]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

agree with JustPassingthru, the Body of Christ is not only alive and well but coming to the final stage before being `caught away.`

`till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11)

 

To think that the Lord could only build a weak & sick Body is heresy, but mainly ignorance I would think on your part. This is your quote - 

The church today is sick and on its deathbed, Whether that sickness is complacency or intellectualism, or heresy.... What is even worse is she is denial that she is sick and dying, instead she is in delusion of her grandeur and vitality. It is a sad state to be in.

 

Have you been able to look across the world into all the believers hearts? Would you like to say that to those being martyred today?

Have you any idea  what the Lord the Head of the Body has been doing for these past 2 centuries and across the world?

 

How does the Body of Christ Mature.

 

The Apostle Paul gave the early disciples the whole counsel of God. They were taught the full revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes.

`For I (Paul) have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)

 

Here is a summary of the main truths, then the errors that came in and finally the restoring of those truths through the centuries.

 

1. Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)

2. Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)

3. Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)

4. Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)

5. Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)

 

6. Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)

7. Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)

8. Methodist - Holiness. (1738)

9. Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)

 10. Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916)

 

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.

 

When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,

Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)

I Agree with this in that this is the potential of the church of this Laodicean age, when she comes to the unity of the Spirit and the Bond of peace, But right now she sits Powerless and divided. Like I have said this could be the church's finest hour if she heeds the call of Ephesians 4, and moves on to Ephesians 5 and 6, And has the potential to overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony (rev. 12:11) But we are not there yet. The saints are being killed all day long so yes there are overcomers even now as we speak But corporately the church has yet to "reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)

It is when the divides between our Calvinist brethren and our Methodist brethren and our charismatic brethren and our Baptist brethren and even our catholic brethren are corrected, that this will occur, which is what I am trying to show people here are preventing this from occurring. Sitting here and calling people who teach holiness as being heretics is part of the Problem, the Calvinist calling the Arminian heretics is part of the problem, the Arminian calling the Calvinist a heretic is part of the problem, Or those who are textualist calling charismatics heretics is a part of the problem. The solution is not a compromise, as resulted in the Great awakening or even the baptism of fire and tongues as happened in the Pentecostal movement But of Pride in ones position and reaching repentance. 

Each of these positive moves have an error that must be corrected in them that keeps this division alive.

6. Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517) Error is loss of the distinction between the faithful and the saints, which led to Calvinism

7. Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608) 

8. Methodist - Holiness. (1738) Full assurance of Faith became a doctrine we hold to instead of an experience we live through, Hence the birth of textualism

9. Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906) In response to textualism the experience prevailed, any experience prevailed and the gift of discernment was lost

 10. Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916) Because of the vast spread in the world the birth of Kingdom now teachings were born, and the worldy riches of the church began to conceal there spiritual poverty.

 

All of these error must be overcome before the unity of the Spirit can be achieved, and until the church sees these problems she remains poor wretched blind and naked. This will be the church's greatest moment and the revival will far exceed all the others, But first she must admit she is in need of such a correction and revival all of them that consist of this Laodicean church age. She must take to heart the letter to the laodiceans, this includes the Calvinist and the Methodist, the Baptist and the charismatic and the catholic, and the apostolic, we are all one and we all need to heed the instruction in there as if it was our own and we need to lay aside the delusion that we are superior which is the delusion of being Philadelphians. Do You understand this? The denial of a problem is apparent in all these denominations, and all of them have Jesus knocking and waiting to for them to Let Him In the Calvinist and the Arminian, the Baptist and the Weslyan, the fundamentalist and the charismatic, the Catholic and the protestant. They all need to be zealous and repent and until all realize they have a problem the church is on a deathbed in denial that she has a problem.

"It is not about me being right it is about us getting it right" This is the second part of My calling after "can the teacher be taught?"  For me personally this statement lays aside my doctrinal differences in the arriving at truth and unity of the Spirit. It lays aside my desire to right and to love all my brethren in Christ in the fellowship of the saints. But as a church it has a far bigger connotation, of laying aside our pride of denomination and having the attitude that strives for fellowship of the Spirit, which means coming to terms with those errors each of our divides has in them. 

It is not about being shown to be superior, but about being able to grow and mature into the fulness of Christ. That unity comes when we all admit we are Laodiceans and take to heart the instructions in that letter and overcome. With man this is impossible, But with God nothing is impossible, "Not by power or by might but by my Spirit". On the other side of this many will fall away from the truth and the Love of many will wax cold as we are seeing here on this forum in a microcosm of what is going on as a whole in the church as a whole.

Thank you for the comment Marylin as this is exactly what we need to be discussing and not just calling one another heretical. All these things the Holy Ghost has shown me since 2007 when I started to keenly learn from Him not from men. Use discernment that you have been given and pray for guidance and he will show you the truth of these things. Let Him teach you, and to all the Pastors and teachers out there The Holy Ghost is all of our teacher and the denominational divides are not of the teaching of the Holy Ghost but of men. Each teacher must go to the cross and learn to be taught by the Holy Ghost again if this Revival is to take place, and it starts with you admitting that your church whatever it may be is on the deathbed of denial and self deception. It begins with the teachers being able to be taught and to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. You all have something to give and you all have errors to fix. Let the great Physician heal and mend those errors and in so doing join with your fellow Brethren in Christ Jesus as one, Perfectly one As Jesus Prayed in John 17. We are all Laodiceans, this unites and not divides the church. Then you will see a revival not built on compromise, But on the fulness of Christ, We all know in part and when the fellowship of all the parts comes together, so too will the fulness of Christ therein be. But You must be willing to admit you are part of the least, the least of the seven churches, in order for Christ to empower you to overcome as he overcame. For he came not to rule but to serve, not to have his feet washed but to wash his followers feet. Let that mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus.

God bless, and again Thank you Marylin. 

[leah777]

There appears to be confusion for some on this thread as to what "church" is.

Perhaps some are speaking of denominations or bricks and mortar churches, rather than the multitude of humans who make up church as spoken of by Jesus Christ.