Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse

[not an echo]

Hello all,

The Olivet Discourse is a talk Jesus had with His disciples on the Mount of Olives concerning some bad things that were going to be taking place.  Of the four Gospel accounts, this discourse is found in all but John's account.  Part of the reason for this may be that, though John was actually present when Jesus spoke these words (Mk. 13:3-4), he was also given The Revelation!  As it turns out, God inspired the other Gospel writers to give an account of Jesus' discourse, but John to give an account of The Revelation.  Since both the Olivet Discourse and The Revelation concern things that were going to be happening, it should not surprise us to find paralleling information between the two.  Nor should it surprise us that one holds keys to unlocking the mysteries of the other and vice-versa.  This is important to remember.

Of great concern is who Jesus' Olivet Discourse pertains to.  Many scholars (especially of the common pre-trib view) put forth interpretations that have the entire discourse pertaining only to Israelites.  Though I also see the rapture as occurring pre-Daniel's 70th Week (just not according to the common view), I believe Jesus is speaking to more than Israelites and encourage patience and the closest attention be given as we take another look at this.  Of course, one's understanding of the Olivet Discourse will greatly impact his or her understanding of the timing of the rapture, relative to other events.

To begin, it cannot be dismissed that some 2000 years of world history continues to substantiate what Jesus said in the opening of His discourse.  We do not have to look to events yet future to find fulfillment of what He warned was going to be happening.  It has been fulfilled and is being fulfilled even now, in our day.  The continued fulfilling of what Jesus said about deceivers and false Christs, about wars and rumors of wars, about famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and about the persecution and martyrdom His followers would face is remarkable.  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Just a little sidebar---atheists, agnostics, and non-Christians should take note.  And, if the things of which Jesus warned connect with the first four seals of Revelation 6 (as commonly believed, and by myself as well), understanding all of this would seem to be pivotal (if not altogether necessary) to a correct understanding of The Revelation.

Even on the surface, does it not seem appropriate, even obligatory, that in such a talk with His disciples, Jesus would warn them of things they and His New Testament Church would be facing?  He was speaking these things to the pillars of His Church the very week He was to be crucified!  Early in the era of the Church (commonly referred to as the Church Age), our brothers and sisters in Christ might not have made all the connections, but now we have the perspective of retrospect.  As we say of hindsight, it is 20/20, and some 2000 years of hindsight has confirmed to my satisfaction that Jesus did indeed speak of things very relevant to the Church.  Think about it:  What He said for openers has characterized every century since that time, if not every decade, if not every year.  The more one becomes aware of what all is happening in this world, the more it seems that what He said fits every day!

So, concerning Jesus' Olivet Discourse, just what pertains to Church Era Christians, and what pertains to Last Day's Israelites?  Or, what is here that these should understand as pertaining more to themselves?  I am reminded of Paul's words, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (II Tim. 2:15).

What follows represents the best way I, as a workman, have found to rightly divide Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  Realize that in Matthew's two chapter account (specifically chapter 25), Jesus teaches some things in parables that neither Mark nor Luke record.  I have plans of starting a thread relating to that chapter in the future.  But, for the focus of this thread, my focus will be on what all three do give an account of, as recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.  These accounts parallel in a big way, which is very helpful and needs to be highly regarded.

Now, there is a saying to the effect that the simplest way is usually the most correct.  Whether this is so with the way that I would divide Jesus' discourse, it is a simple way when understood.  To better organize things and help our focus, let's begin by pulling out the central section of each account, as illustrated below:

As can be seen, when the central section is pulled out, the result is three sections.  As I see it, Jesus' discourse can be rightly divided in this way.  My reason for doing this with the central section is because it is so easy to distinguish as pertaining exclusively to the Israelites.  We will start here and then consider the rest of the discourse from this basis.  Going a step further, since Matthew and Mark's accounts of this section are equally as easy to distinguish as pertaining to LAST DAY'S Israelites, this is how I will label it.  The central section of which I am speaking is similar in each account and is not broken up in any way.  Below, I have indicated where this section occurs.  Time to get your Bible out!

Each of these parallel references supports that Jesus has Last Day's Israelites here in view and that they will need to be braced for some extremely tough times.  Note the opening verse(s) of each respective section and what I have highlighted, which shows the agreement, even though some content varies:

MATTHEW 24

 15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

MARK 13

 14  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

LUKE 21

 20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 21  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...

Double checking the fit of the Luke section, many scholars believe this account pertains wholly to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.  But, though there are some differences in wording, key elements are verbatim, or so very similar, that it must pertain to the same part of Jesus' address and at least equally as much to Daniel's 70th Week.  For a further confirmation of this, compare verse 24 of the Luke section with Revelation 11:2, which is an accepted Daniel's 70th Week reference.

Backing up now to the beginning of Jesus' discourse, the accounts of what He said before the central section reflect what He warned His New Testament Church to be prepared for, even as the era of the NT Church was about to dawn.  Following is that section from each account, which is also not broken up in any way.  Note that my occasional use of the word AGE is merely because of its familiarity and has nothing to do with dispensationalism.

These parallel references open very similarly and, from a worldwide perspective, everything Jesus here said fits exactly what Christians throughout the era of the Church have witnessed to come to pass and what would represent fitting instructions of any generation of the Church.  Following is how the opening of each of these respective sections reads, and again, to show the agreement:

MATTHEW 24

  4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

  5   For many shall come in My name, saying I am Christ:  and shall deceive many.

MARK 13

  5   And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

  6   For many shall come in My name, saying I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.

LUKE 21

  8   And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived:  for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and the time draweth near:  go ye not therefore after them.

In review of where we are at so far, in the central section of His discourse, Jesus warned of what His Nation needed to expect and gave instructions for Israelites concerning what they would go through in the Last Days.  Similarly, before this central section, in His opening, Jesus warned of what HIS CHURCH needed to expect and gave instructions for CHRISTIANS concerning what they would go through in the CHURCH AGE.

This brings us to what Jesus said after the central section.  As I see it, what He says in this last section relates to the ending of the era of the Church, which certainly concerns Church Age Christians, but also Last Day's Israelites.  The opening paragraph of this section has been the subject of much debate.  Presently, be mindful that I interpret the tribulation Jesus spoke of in this section (Matt. 24:29 and Mk. 13:24) to be that of the Church Age, the tribulation of which He spoke as He began His discourse.  Following is that last section of each account, and it too is not broken up in any way:

As with the other two sections, these parallel references also open very similarly, and I submit that everything Jesus says in this part of His discourse relates to the closing of the era of the Church, which is effected by the rapture.  Following is how the opening of each of these sections reads, and once again, to show the agreement:

MATTHEW 24

 29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

MARK 13

 24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

 25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

LUKE 21

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

If you have been comparing the foregoing with your Bible, you may have already noticed that the very next verse in each of the above references is about some return of Christ.  This is something that certainly deserves very close attention.  I would here like to draw attention to Matthew's account of this verse (and the one following it), especially the two words I have emphasized:

MATTHEW 24

 30  And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Based partly upon Jesus' use of the words "the sign" in verse 30, I see these verses as pertaining to the time of the rapture and what I have come to refer to as His "Sign" Appearance.  Those holding to the common pre-trib view already believe that Christ's end time return will be in two parts or phases.  On this, I believe similarly, but prefer to express it thus:  Christ's Second Advent will be preceded by a Sign Appearance.  However, my particular understanding is quite contrary to the common view.  Further, I see Christ making this Sign Appearance with the opening of the 6th Seal, and the rapture also happening at this time (Rev. 6:12-7:17), which is also quite contrary to the common view.  Because Jesus is here seen "with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30), most at once interpret this to be of His Second Advent.  However, because of His choice of words and other evidences, I submit that His manifestation at this time will be as a sign for those in Israel's hemisphere, and especially for "all the tribes" (vs. 30), of which 12,000 from each tribe will be sealed (Rev. 7:4-8).  Also, realize that even if but a glimpse (which I believe it will here be), the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen "with power and great glory"!

Though Jesus' words in verse 31 easily fit the rapture, defenders of the common pre-trib view interpret verse 30 to be of "the second phase" of His return (His Second Advent) and the gathering together of "His elect" in verse 31 to be the re-gathering of dispersed Israelites to their homeland.  Yet, according to the undisputed account of His Second Advent, given in Revelation 19:11-21, the first order of business at that time is not going to be the re-gathering of Israelites at all, but the Battle of Armageddon.  After this, Satan will be bound and Christ will begin His Millennial Reign (Rev. 20:1-6).  According to much Scripture, it will be at this time that the Israelites will be re-gathered to their homeland as they migrate there under the supervision of the Lord (see Isaiah 11:11-12, 15-16;  35:8-10;  43:5-7;  49:22-23;  51:11;  60:9;  Jeremiah 23:5-8;  Ezekiel 20:40-44;  34:11-16;  37:21-25;  Hosea 3:4-5;  Amos 9:11-15;  and Zechariah 8:3-8).  While it is questionable what the need might be to suddenly re-gather Israelites to their homeland---in a way that sounds like the rapture---it is certainly not hard to understand the need to gather the Church to Heaven in such a manner.

Needless to say, if the sign event of which Jesus speaks in Matthew 24:29-31 concerns the rapture, this will certainly be of immense importance to both Last Day's Israelites and Church Era Christians, as it will affect both in the biggest way!  Moving on for now, Jesus continues by making tie-ins to this event, some related more to the Israelites and some related more to Christians.  The following tie-in supports that this sign event is not His Second Advent, but precedes it.  Continuing in Matthew's account, without skipping any verses, notice the parable that He gives (and my emphasis and note):

MATTHEW 24

 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (His Second Advent) IS NEAR, even at the doors.

 34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

Consider the assurance that this parable will hold for Last Day's Israelites who will be left at the rapture.  What Jesus is saying is that after the things of which He has just warned, and especially the sign event of verses 29-31, His Second Advent will be "near, even at the doors" (vs. 33).  Reinforcing this, in Luke's corresponding account, He says, "then look up, and lift up your heads;  for your (the Israelite's) redemption draweth nigh" (Lk. 21:28-33, esp. vs. 28).

Immediately after His parable of the fig tree, Jesus continues with words that further support what I am putting forth.  The next verses in Matthew's account read thus:

MATTHEW 24

 36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.

 37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UNTIL THE DAY THAT NOE ENTERED INTO THE ARK,

 39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;  so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Just like the world of Noah's day was not expecting the flood until it was too late, so will it be on the day of the rapture.  But, as Noah and his family entered safely into the ark before God's time of judgment and the flood began, so will the Church enter safely into Heaven before God's future time of judgment begins.  Jesus is not illustrating how the days will be just before the second phase of His return (His Second Advent), for that event will be at the end of Daniel's 70th Week, even after the angels have already begun to pour out the vials of God's wrath upon the earth (Rev. 16).  The world at that time will certainly not be going about their normal activities of "eating and drinking, marrying and giving marriage" (vs.38).  Rather, these activities represent a carefree state of mind that is like that of our world today and what the mentality of the world will be like just before the rapture---which could take place today!

Continuing with the next verses in Matthew's account, Jesus keeps pointing out that the world is not going to be prepared for all that will happen on the day of His Sign Appearance, as the following vivid picture of the rapture shows:

MATTHEW 24

 40  Then shall two be in the field;  the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill;  the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42  WATCH THEREFORE:  for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

In regard to the last several verses, Jesus likens the sudden and unexpected event of His Sign Appearance to that of the coming of a thief.  Continuing still in Matthew's account:

MATTHEW 24

 43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch THE THIEF would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

 44  Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour AS YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh.

Note that what Jesus here says will fit the event of His Sign Appearance, but not that of His Second Advent.  Why?  At the time of Christ's Second Advent, the beast (or Antichrist) and those in league with him will be expecting His return and will even be gathered to make war with Him (Rev. 19:19).  It is at the time of the rapture and the beginning of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment that Christ will come as a thief---at a time just like our present time!  Notice how the corresponding section from Luke's account reinforces this:

LUKE 21

 34  And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

 35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Moreover, the corresponding section from Mark's account also reinforces and compliments the foregoing.  Consider:

MARK 13

 32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 33  Take ye heed, watch and pray:  for ye know not when the time is.

 34  For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authotity to HIS SERVANTS, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

 35  WATCH YE THEREFORE:  for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning.

 36  Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping.

 37  And what I say unto you I say unto all, WATCH.

Something quite revealing here is Jesus' reference to "His servants" and what He says of Himself and them in verse 34.  His servants would be His disciples and all of His followers throughout the era of the Church.  This irrefutably establishes that in His Olivet Discourse, Jesus had His Church in mind too.  Before He took His "far journey," Jesus gave "work" to each of His disciples and by extension, to everyone who would become a part of His New Testament Church.  That work is summed up in His Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20).

In review, Jesus' Olivet Discourse can be divided---rightly as I see it---into three sections.  The central section pertains to Last Day's Israelites and is yet to be fulfilled, as it relates to Daniel's 70th Week.  The opening section pertains to Church Age Christians (New Testament Christians) and will continue to be fulfilled throughout the era of the Church, of which we are a part.  Finally, the closing section pertains to both Last Day's Israelites and Church Age Christians, as it relates to the very day of Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture.  There is NOTHING in this last section that doesn't relate TO THE VERY DAY that the rapture will occur.  This statement is not only consistent with Matthew, Mark, and Luke's accounts, but it is reinforced by each.  While it is needless to stress that this event pertains to the NT Church, it may be needful to stress once more that it also pertains to Last Day's Israelites, because the day that the Church is gone, the focus will be brought to bear upon them, and it will be a time of the greatest tribulation that has ever been.

As I stated earlier, many scholars believe that Jesus' Olivet Discourse pertains only to Israelites and deny that He spoke of anything in it pertaining to the Church or the rapture.  Again, I just have to disagree and submit that there are more and better reasons to believe otherwise, including how other prophetic pieces of the Last Day's puzzle come together in light of what I have shown.  For those who are seeing the evidence as I do, there is much to take heed to in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, some especially for Last Day's Israelites, some especially for Church Era Christians, and some for both, not to mention the lost.

NOTE:  I later developed a master thread concerning A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, of which the above is a part.  Here is a link to that thread, which includes more information on this interpretation and a running list of all the other threads I have which pertain to it: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations and add link

[douggg]

not an echo,   I made a similar chart based on your model.   With a few changes.

 

 

[douggg]

Please consider that when the apostles commented as them living "in these last days" they were seeing the events leading up to the temple destroyed, and the Jews lead away as captives. It is not meaning latter days and latter years (like in Ezekiel 38), end times. They were seeing the last days of Israel in the land, for what Israel would soon be in exile for a long, long time.

On the chart, please take note of the status of Israel in those three main divisions, breaking up the last 2000 years to where Israel has been.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by douggg

[Justin Adams]

To answer the OP. Some of the things happened before during and after the Olivet word. 70 AD was the immediate.

It was to ALL believers as there is no Jew or Greek or man or woman believer that is not Israel after the manner of the Abrahamic Covenant. "I will bless all nations.."

Some of the stuff appears to be in our future, which was a very long time after the first hearers of this prophecy.

It is not complicated.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

This is a big relief. I was fully prepared to look for Jesus in the desert and the upper room but didn't think I could. It's nice to know that caveat is only for the Jews. 

[Diaste]

There seems to be a problem with who Jesus was speaking to. Are they Jews? Yes. So by the logic presented none of Matt 24 is for anyone else but the Jews, since Jesus only addressed Israelis of the Jewish religion.

 

[Keras]

On 5/16/2021 at 10:24 PM, Diaste said:

There seems to be a problem with who Jesus was speaking to. Are they Jews? Yes. So by the logic presented none of Matt 24 is for anyone else but the Jews, since Jesus only addressed Israelis of the Jewish religion.

 

But Jesus said that He was sent to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24

The idea that He only saves those of the Jewish religion, is a joke; obviously not true. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

But Jesus said that He was sent to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24

The idea that He only saves those of the Jewish religion, is a joke; obviously not true. 

Quite right. Israel, true Israel, are those of the faith of Jacob, the seed of Abraham, which are all those in Jesus Christ. So then Jesus was addressing those in the faith of Israel, not the nation, not Jews, but those followers of Christ. In truth then Jesus saves none of any religion but only those who believe on Him. Then all of Matt 24 is for the followers of Jesus and there is no discrimination between church and Israel as the church is faithful Israel, and faithful Israel is the church.

 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Quite right. Israel, true Israel, are those of the faith of Jacob, the seed of Abraham, which are all those in Jesus Christ. So then Jesus was addressing those in the faith of Israel, not the nation, not Jews, but those followers of Christ. In truth then Jesus saves none of any religion but only those who believe on Him. Then all of Matt 24 is for the followers of Jesus and there is no discrimination between church and Israel as the church is faithful Israel, and faithful Israel is the church.

Agree strongly with the middle two sentences, but have a big problem with the last. The nation/soul-line of Jacob/Israel is an entirely different thing than the Church, because the Church is a spiritual body/congregation, and blood-Israel is a soulish congregation.

Leviticus 17:11 ...the soul/nephesh of the flesh is in the blood.

1 Cor. 2:14 But the soulish/psuchikos man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But the spiritual/pneumatikos man judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

There are spiritual Israelites who receive Jesus, and there are non-spiritual Israelites who do not, because they unable, being merely soulish men. Some of the covenants of God with soulish Israel, such as their exclusive promise by God to the ownership of the Holy Land, are unconditional, and have nothing to do with the Church. Our Jerusalem is in heaven; theirs is on earth. Two different promises.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Agree strongly with the middle two sentences, but have a big problem with the last. The nation/soul-line of Jacob/Israel is an entirely different thing than the Church, because the Church is a spiritual body/congregation, and blood-Israel is a soulish congregation.

Leviticus 17:11 ...the soul/nephesh of the flesh is in the blood.

1 Cor. 2:14 But the soulish/psuchikos man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But the spiritual/pneumatikos man judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

There are spiritual Israelites who receive Jesus, and there are non-spiritual Israelites who do not, because they unable, being merely soulish men. Some of the covenants of God with soulish Israel, such as their exclusive promise by God to the ownership of the Holy Land, are unconditional, and have nothing to do with the Church. Our Jerusalem is in heaven; theirs is on earth. Two different promises.

Yes. I never to seem to say clear enough so as to remove any confusion, and in a short enough sentence!