The Holy Covenant of Daniel 11

[BeauJangles]

edit/post delete

Edited May 30, 2020 by BeauJangles

[Gershom_young]

On 5/22/2020 at 3:17 PM, Sister said:

Yes I do.  That covenant was all about the faith.  Abraham trusted God whilst he was "uncircumsized".  Abraham had great faith, but he was not without sin.  No one is, or ever has been without sin (except Jesus).  Same today.  We come to God dirty and full of sin.  He tells us to accept his Son.  We trust God that he speaks truth and knows what he's doing.  It's an act of faith and a truth that not everyone can accept.  We accept his Son whilst uncircumcised, not in the flesh but of the heart.  That circumcision of the heart will be a process now.  Christ whom God gave to the world gives us the tools and shows us the way to the Father.  Now we must learn to adopt his spirit and follow all his commandments.  All is a journey and takes time.  Time to learn the Word.  Time to exercise self control.  Time to tell the difference between good and evil and time to learn humility.  At the end, Christ will discern who has circumcised their heart and who hasn't and this is the washing of our robes during our journey.  Removing those stains, one by one.  Ready to be presented all crisp and clean, without the foul smell of hypocrisy.  Obeying the Word of God..

I thought circumcision of the heart was an immediate thing more than a process. Like being born again. In the physical world, one moment you aren't born, the next you are - the same with being born again through the Holy Spirit. Isn't circumcision of the heart the same thing? One moment, we are dead in our sins and the uncircumcision of our hearts' sinful natures, and the next, God has given us new hearts and made us alive in Christ, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

[Sister]

On 6/19/2020 at 11:12 PM, Gershom_young said:

I thought circumcision of the heart was an immediate thing more than a process. Like being born again. In the physical world, one moment you aren't born, the next you are - the same with being born again through the Holy Spirit. Isn't circumcision of the heart the same thing? One moment, we are dead in our sins and the uncircumcision of our hearts' sinful natures, and the next, God has given us new hearts and made us alive in Christ, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Hi Gershom_young

No it's not the same thing.  We are not instantly made righteous, but have been provided with a door to come out of captivity.  When that door is opened to us, we have follow the Lamb, the Word of God to the path he is leading us.  To do this we have to learn what the Word is instructing, so we can know the difference between good and evil.  When we find out, there are many things we didn't know and have to give up (sacrifice).  This process of doing things differently is how we adopt Christ's spirit.  Christ is teaching us how to be righteous. He is the good Shepherd.  We are saints in training, and put through some hard drills.  The more we exercise and learn self control, and conquer the sins we have been convicted of ...is that process of circumcising the heart.  During the whole journey it should be producing good fruits.  Righteousness. 

These good fruits can turn sour if we are not careful, because the enemy is forever trying to take us off that path with many distractions, which is why Christ said "he that endures to the end shall be saved"

 

 

[Gershom_young]

10 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Gershom_young

No it's not the same thing.  We are not instantly made righteous, but have been provided with a door to come out of captivity.  When that door is opened to us, we have follow the Lamb, the Word of God to the path he is leading us.  To do this we have to learn what the Word is instructing, so we can know the difference between good and evil.  When we find out, there are many things we didn't know and have to give up (sacrifice).  This process of doing things differently is how we adopt Christ's spirit.  Christ is teaching us how to be righteous. He is the good Shepherd.  We are saints in training, and put through some hard drills.  The more we exercise and learn self control, and conquer the sins we have been convicted of ...is that process of circumcising the heart.  During the whole journey it should be producing good fruits.  Righteousness. 

These good fruits can turn sour if we are not careful, because the enemy is forever trying to take us off that path with many distractions, which is why Christ said "he that endures to the end shall be saved"

 

 

Hi Sister.

Isn't physical circumcision - the symbol for circumcision of the heart - a relatively quick process? Like, one moment, the male is uncovenanted, and with a flick of the izmel and excision of the unclean flesh, the next he enters into a covenant with God (at least in the Old Testament times). Wouldn't it follow the same pattern in the New Testament - one moment, the believer is dead in the uncircumcision of his sinful nature, and the next moment, he believes and is made alive in Christ, irrespective of the sanctification that is to come? (i.e. the good fruits and righteousness).

Colossians 2:11-13 says it thus.

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

Note that Paul didn't say "In whom also ye are being circumcised", it said "In whom also ye are circumcised" (i.e. circumcised already). What I'm getting at is that I believe our works don't circumcise our hearts over time. Our good works come because our heart is circumcised by Him the day we believe.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Gershom_young

[Sister]

3 minutes ago, Gershom_young said:

Hi Sister.

Isn't physical circumcision - the symbol for circumcision of the heart - a relatively quick process? Like, one moment, the male is uncovenanted, and with a flick of the izmel and excision of the unclean flesh, the next he enters into a covenant with God (at least in the Old Testament times). Wouldn't it follow the same pattern in the New Testament - one moment, the believer is dead in the uncircumcision of his sinful nature, and the next moment, he believes and is made alive in Christ, irrespective of the sanctification that is to come? (i.e. the good fruits and righteousness).

Colossians 2:11-13 says it thus.

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

Note that Paul didn't say "In whom also ye are being circumcised", it said "In whom also ye are circumcised" (i.e. circumcised already). What I'm getting at is that I believe our works don't circumcise our hearts over time. Our good works come because our heart is circumcised by Him the day we believe.

I see what you are saying.

The hebrews were circumcised in the flesh, and I guess that was quick, but they later fell off the path.  So their circumcision was counted for uncircumcision. 

 

Romans 2:25   For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

Romans 2:29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Circumcising the heart takes a little longer than circumcising the flesh.  The mind might be willing at first, but there are many who fall by the wayside.  At the end of our journey is what counts, whether we were truly circumcised or not.  It will depend on our fruits.  There is work required on our behalf and that is to obey the Word of the Lord in all he commands.  Not just pick and chose and rely on mercy for the things we are not prepared to give up.  That's not circumcision, it's defiance. 

We need to know what to change, ...we need instruction and the scriptures for this.  Anyone with faith will seek this out with all their hearts.  Some will circumcise their hearts quicker than others.  Some will take a lifetime to get there.  We are living on borrowed time, and every day is precious.  We don't want to die or be caught whilst being in that defiant or ignorant stage.  The Lord knows our hearts, he's worthy to judge these matters, but we can't say we were not warned.

[Gershom_young]

23 hours ago, Sister said:

I see what you are saying.

The hebrews were circumcised in the flesh, and I guess that was quick, but they later fell off the path.  So their circumcision was counted for uncircumcision.

The circumcision in the flesh symbolised what was to happen in the heart. The unclean, hard, proud, fleshly obstruction (symbolised by foreskin), was snipped off (symbolised by circumcision), leaving a clean, soft, humble heart sensitive to God's will. The circumcision resulted in a healthy heart, resulting in love of God, resulting in life.

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deut 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

23 hours ago, Sister said:

Romans 2:25   For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

Romans 2:29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

While it was true that circumcision of the heart (faith in God) resulted in physical circumcision (a work of obedience) as in Abraham's case, physical circumcision or works often did not result in circumcision of the heart (as in the case of the Pharisees). They tried to keep all the rules to the letter, but their hearts were proud, hard, flesh-focused and unclean.

23 hours ago, Sister said:

Circumcising the heart takes a little longer than circumcising the flesh.

Does it? Can someone only be half-circumcised? Surely either one is, or one isn't? If one is still in the process of being circumcised, doesn't that make one uncircumcised? This is why I liken circumcision to being born - either one is born, or one is not. One cannot be half-born.

23 hours ago, Sister said:

The mind might be willing at first, but there are many who fall by the wayside.  At the end of our journey is what counts, whether we were truly circumcised or not.  It will depend on our fruits.  There is work required on our behalf and that is to obey the Word of the Lord in all he commands.  Not just pick and chose and rely on mercy for the things we are not prepared to give up.  That's not circumcision, it's defiance.

I agree that disobedience is defiance (uncircumcision), but we can't obey while our hearts are unclean (e.g. the Pharisees). God gives us new hearts by His Holy Spirit (when we are born again), and the foreskin of our hearts - our sinful nature - is disposed of. This is a work of God, not of ourselves. We can't achieve a circumcised heart by working at obeying God, because our hearts are in defiance to God since birth. For example, the Pharisees thought they were pleasing God by obeying His laws, but they couldn't see that their hearts needed to be circumcised first.

23 hours ago, Sister said:

We need to know what to change, ...we need instruction and the scriptures for this.  Anyone with faith will seek this out with all their hearts.  Some will circumcise their hearts quicker than others.  Some will take a lifetime to get there.  We are living on borrowed time, and every day is precious.  We don't want to die or be caught whilst being in that defiant or ignorant stage.  The Lord knows our hearts, he's worthy to judge these matters, but we can't say we were not warned.

Again, what if someone dies in the process of circumcising his or her heart? As the circumcision was not complete, he or she would have died uncircumcised. The thief on the cross, for instance? He clearly never finished dealing with his sin, but Jesus saved him just the same when the thief believed on Jesus (i.e. his heart was circumcised the moment he believed on Jesus). Sanctification - dealing with and overcoming sin, is something that is dealt with along the way, and yes, it is a sign of the heart being circumcised, but sanctification is not the circumcision itself.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Gershom_young