At what point should we refuse a mandatory vaccine or mark?

[Neighbor]

There is a universe of information, complete with thoughts speculations  interpretations much larger than the small body  of thought and speculate many  ( especially USA evangelicals) travel in. 

Here is a sample: ONE OF THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD SYMBOLS IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS THE BEAST WHO RISES FROM THE SEA IN CHAPTER 13 (THERE IS ALSO A BEAST FROM THE LAND, BUT THIS ARTICLE WILL NOT FOCUS ON HIM). 

SPECULATIONS ABOUT THE IDENTITY OF THE BEAST ARE RAMPANT. ANTI-CATHOLICS FREQUENTLY IDENTIFY IT WITH A FUTURE “RESTORED ROMAN EMPIRE,” WHICH THEY ALSO WISH TO CONNECT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. 

TO FIND OUT WHO THE BEASTS REALLY IS, ONE HAS TO TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT THE TEXT IN QUESTION. OFTEN PEOPLE REASON LIKE THIS: THE BEAST HAS TEN HORNS AND RISES FROM THE SEA (13:1). IN DANIEL 7, THE PROPHET DANIEL SAW A SERIES OF FOUR BEASTS RISING FROM THE SEA, THE LAST OF WHOM HAD TEN HORNS (DAN. 7:7). THEREFORE, JOHN’S BEAST IS THE SAME AS THE FOURTH BEAST OF DANIEL. THAT BEAST SYMBOLIZED THE ROMAN EMPIRE. THEREFORE, THIS BEAST SYMBOLIZES THE ROMAN EMPIRE.

ONE PROBLEM WITH THIS REASONING IS THAT IT FOCUSES ONLY ON PART OF THE SYMBOLISM IN REVELATION 13. NOT ONLY DOES THE BEAST JOHN SEES HAVE TEN HORNS, LIKE DANIEL’S FOURTH BEAST, IT ALSO HAS A BODY LIKE A LEOPARD (13:2A), LIKE DANIEL’S THIRD BEAST (7:6), FEET LIKE A BEAR’S (13:2B), LIKE DANIEL’S SECOND BEAST (7:5), AND A MOUTH LIKE A LION, LIKE DANIEL’S FIRST BEAST (7:4). THE BEAST JOHN SEES THUS INCORPORATES SYMBOLISM FROM ALL OF DANIEL’S FOUR BEASTS, MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE TO SIMPLY IDENTIFY IT WITH THE FOURTH OF THE SERIES.

THIS IS PART OF THE “FUSION IMAGERY” WHICH REVELATION CONTAINS. JUST AS JOHN SAW ANGELS AROUND GOD’S THRONE (4:6-8) WHICH INCORPORATED ELEMENTS OF BOTHISAIAH’S SERAPHIM (IS. 6:2-3) AND EZEKIEL’S CHERUBIM (EZEK. 10:10-14), NOW HE SEES A BEAST WHICH INCORPORATES ELEMENTS OF ALL THE DANIEL 7 BEASTS. THIS SUGGESTS THAT THE NEW BEAST IS LIKE THOSE FOUR—THE SAME KIND OF THING AS THEY ARE—BUT NOT TO BE IDENTIFIED WITH ANY ONE OF THEM.

ANOTHER PROBLEM IS THAT DANIEL’S FOURTH BEAST DOES NOT SYMBOLIZE THE ROMAN EMPIRE—AT LEAST NOT AS ITS PRIMARY REFERENT. INSTEAD, ITS MAIN REFERENT IS THE KINGDOM THAT RESULTED WHEN ALEXANDER THE GREAT’S KINGDOM FELL APART. 

AMONG THE HORNS OF DANIEL’S FOURTH BEAST AROSE ONE PARTICULAR LITTLE HORN WHO BLASPHEMED GOD (7:8). THIS LITTLE HORN SYMBOLIZES ANTIOCHUS IV (“ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES”), THE SELUCID KING WHO CONQUERED JERUSALEM, B.ASPHEMED GOD, AND DESECRATED THE TEMPLE, AND SET UP THE FIRST “ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION” (DAN. 11:31, 12:11, 1 MACC. 6:7) BY SETTING UP AN IDOL OF JUPITER OLYMPUS IN THE HOLY PLACE. (THERE ARE OTHER TIMES AN “ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION” IS SET UP, CF. MATT. 24:15-16, LUKE 21:20-21.)

WHAT DANIEL’S FOUR BEASTS HAVE IN COMMON IS THAT THEY ARE ALL PAGAN KINGDOMS THAT PERSECUTED AND CONQUERED GOD’S PEOPLE, ISRAEL. JOHN’S BEAST IS THE SAME KIND OF THING—A CONQUERING PAGAN EMPIRE. SINCE IT COMES AFTER DANIEL’S FOUR BEASTS, ROME IS THE LOGICAL CANDIDATE. BUT IT’S NOT A FUTURE, “RESTORED ROMAN EMPIRE.” IT’S THE REAL THING, THE PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE OF THE EARLY CENTURIES. THIS IS CONFIRMED BY SEVERAL LINES OF EVIDENCE. 

FIRST, THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS EXPLICIT IN STATING THAT IT CONCERNS EVENTS THAT WILL HAPPEN “SOON” (1:1, 2:16, 3:11, 22:6, 7, 12, 20). THIS INDICATES THAT THE BULK OF THE EVENTS OF THE BOOK (THOSE THAT PRECEDE THE MILLENNIUM OF REV. 20:1-10, IN WHICH WE ARE NOW LIVING) SHOULD TAKE PLACE SHORTLY AFTER THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN, LIKELY IN THE A.D. 60S.

SECOND, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST IS 666 AND THAT THIS IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN’S NAME (13:18). NOT COINCIDENTALLY, THE PERSECUTING, PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE WAS HEADED IN THE A.D. 60S BY CAESAR NERO, WHOSE NAME HAPPENED TO ADD UP TO 666 IN THE HEBREW SYSTEM OF LETTERS AND NUMBERS. (IN HEBREW, “CAESAR NERO” = “NRWN QSR” = N 50 + R 200 + W 6 + N 50 + Q 100 + S 60 + R 200 = 666; A VARIANT SPELLING OF THE NAME, NRW QSR, ADDS UP TO 616, WHICH SOME MANUSCRIPTS HAVE IN PLACE OF 666).

THIRD, THE SEVEN HEADS OF THE BEAST ARE IDENTIFIED AS SEVEN MOUNTAINS (17:9). THOUGH THIS IS NOT CERTAIN, THESE ARE LIKELY THE SEVEN HILLS ON WHICH THE CITY OF ROME WAS BUILT. (VATICAN HILL, HOWEVER, WAS NOT ONE OF THE SEVEN; IT IS ON THE SIDE OF THE TIBER RIVER OPPOSITE THE SEVEN.)

THUS THERE IS GOOD EVIDENCE THAT THE BEAST FROM THE SEA IS THE PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE OF THE FIRST CENTURY AND, IN PARTICULAR, THE EMPEROR AT ITS HEAD. THIS, AGAIN, IS LIKE DANIEL’S FOUR BEASTS, WHO WERE DESCRIBED BOTH AS FOUR KINGS (DAN 7:17) AND FOUR KINGDOMS (CF. DAN. 7:23).

FURTHER CONFIRMATION IS FOUND IN REVELATION SPEAKING OF THE JEWISH TEMPLE AS IF IT WERE STILL OPERATING (11:1), BUT SOON TO BE TRAMPLED BY THE GENTILES, ALONG WITH THE HOLY CITY (11:2). SHORTLY AFTER NERO’S REIGN, THE GENTILES DID INDEED INVADE JERUSALEM, TRAMPLE IT, AND DESTROY THE TEMPLE.

THIS SUGGESTS NOT ONLY THAT THE BEAST CORRESPONDED TO THE ROMAN EMPIRE IN GENERAL AND CAESAR NERO IN PARTICULAR BUT ALSO THAT THE BOOK OF REVELATION ITSELF WAS WRITTEN SOMETIME IN THE EARLY A.D. 60S, DURING NERO’S REIGN, JUST BEFORE THE JEWISH WAR THAT LED TO THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE IN A.D. 70.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neighbor]

As far as vaccines go;  just show me the line I'll happily stand in it,  and praise God for it.

[missmuffet]

46 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Great, glad to see you pay no taxes.

Taxes yes but vaccinations......no. 

[Debp]

4 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

let us old timers rejoice in the king .  me at the ripe age of forty eight

My, you are in the prime of life!   You aren't old at all.    In a few months I'll be 70....mentally I sure don't feel that old.

[other one]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am my  own source, I just go to half the shops in town and there is a sign on the door, we do not accept cash. Even the local Mac Donald's got in on it.

I don't blame them...    the drive by's here are hold their credit card machines out so you can put your card in and not touch anything....   has made it very comfortable eating carryout.

Order on line at Papa John's and they bring it to your front door and set it down, ring the doorbell and wait for you to come before they leave....   pay on line so nothing changes hands..

And so far we are opening up here in Oklahoma and have fared pretty well....    don't know how many stores may close, but so far the only one I am sure of is Penney's and they were in trouble long before this started.

[LadyKay]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Well I am sure you are going to go for the vaccine manufactured in a company owned by Bill Gates when it comes out. If Gates gets his way you will also get chipped as proof of compliance. What I'd give to see the look on your face if or when that happens. I am sure you will rationalize it away in your mind but my hands will be clean. I did warn you anyway.

Fine live in fear of a life saving vaccine because you believe some nonsense from a conspiracy theorist.  

[Coliseum]

How about this for "arm services"?

"Speaking with Crowdsource the Truth host Jason Goodman over the weekend, Harvard professor Alan Dershowitz said the public's safety outweighs any private liberty concerns of U.S. citizens who do not wish to be vaccinated for the coronavirus.

"Let me put it very clearly, you have no constitutional right to endanger the public and spread disease, even if you disagree," he said. "You have no right not to be vaccinated, you have no right not to wear a mask, you have no right to open up your business."

Goodman interjected to clarify whether Dershowitz was saying the federal government has the ability to mandate vaccinations for all citizens.

"Absolutely," Dershowitz replied. "And if you refuse to be vaccinated, the state has the power to literally take you to a doctor's office and plunge a needle into your arm."

WOW!

[warrior12]

13 minutes ago, Debp said:

My, you are in the prime of life!   You aren't old at all.    In a few months I'll be 70....mentally I sure don't feel that old.

That's the spirit Debp, way to go.   Encourage your self and others to, to help themselves to be active and ALIVE.  

I just turned 60 and before this situation, played soccer three times a week and it felt good.  Thank God for his mercy and blessings.

I have my share of battles, but I press on.

[vic66]

On 5/18/2020 at 6:52 PM, dad2 said:

Apparently many countries will make a vaccine mandatory. This may come with bio metric or technological enforcement some say. I do not think this will be the mark of the beast, but it certainly will be at least a big step forward toward it. My inclination would be to refuse any such mandatory intrusions into the body by government if at all possible legally. However, one must be careful about breaking the law. Generally, if travelling and forced to receive a vaccination, I would probably get the shot. 

At what point should a believer refuse a mark even at the cost of possible prison or death? I guess when the time comes that the mark of the beast is here, it will be obvious.

1) there have been many vaccines invented by men over the years some have caused side effects

Some haven,t.  This is not the mark

2)the mark  of the beast is meant for the great tribulation period(but all who are not born again have a type of the beast mark SIN (A life void of christ)

3) As for being forced to take the vaccine , lets not count our chickens before their hatched.

(wars and rumours of wars.)Rumour hearsay to instill fear and panic can be deadly also.

the Holy spirit and the church (true born again believers are still in the world reproving, convicting ,correcting sinners and restraining powers of darkness.

Remember we mean more to God than many sparrows, even the very number of hairs on our head is known by God. He cares for you.

Then we have such great examples in Job, Danial and the three Hebrew  boys,Esther, mordecai , the prophets and of course the apostles and Jesus (Heb 11)

 

On would christian soldiers muching as to war,

With the cross of Jesus going on before,

Christ the royal master, leads against the foe,

Forward into battle see his banner go.

 

At the sign of triumph Satan's host doth flee,

On then christian soldiers on to victory,

Hell foundation's quiver at the shout of praise,  

Brother lift your voices loud your anthem raise!

 

Like the mighty army moves the church of God,

Brothers we are treading where the Saints have trod,

we are not divided all one body we,

One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by vic66

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, LadyKay said:

It saves millions of babies due to good prenatal care and wellness checks. 

make sure NOT to include planned parenthood Abortion clinics in that statement .  they butchers millions of babies and call it rights .