The antichrist will....

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

Or Jesus words. There will be false prophets, do not follow them. I follow no prophet except Christ. Any who preach falsely are even less deserving.

If they preach Christ and him risen, well. If not, they are not to be followed. 

I think everyone that was mentioned preaches Christ and Him risen. But they teach other things from scripture too.

Edited May 27, 2020 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think everyone that was mentioned preaches Christ sand Him risen. But they teach other things from scripture too.

You could be right. But the many errant teachings give me trust issues. Jesus never lets me down. 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I also have heard message from many of these people. One cannot judge someone from a single message. 

A funny story: I heard Jack Hayford tell this himself. He was trying to get a message and nothing was coming. Finally he realized this was spiritual - but what? He asked God what was happening: why couldn't he get a message? And God answered him: "Every time I give you a massage, you write on it: 'copyright Jack Hayford!'"

Is it wrong to sell books? No, it is not wrong UNLESS God tells someone to give their books away free. I know of such a book: written on the cover it says "this book is not to be sold." I know another minister that God told: "give everything away free." 

I don't agree with Tim LaHaye's take on the end times, but I don't talk against them either. Neither do I covet their book sales. I suspect their books have gotten people born again. As Paul said, at least the gospel is being preached. 

Another good reason why not to speak against a brother or sister in the Lord: What if they did err? Perhaps they have repented. We don't know- ONLY GOD knows. We are commanded to love the brethren. 

I have heard countless people badmouth Kenneth E Hagin.  I have heard many of His messages and have yet to hear ONE THING I could say definitely was not scriptural.  From this one man, now there are over 250 bible schools around the world and over 80,000 graduates from Rhema schools - students from many nations on fire to start ministries in their own nation. Are YOU going to reach all those that these 80,000 will reach? Not a chance! Neither will I. Therefore we should be rejoicing with Paul that the gospel is being preached. 

Many times I have seen Kenneth Hagin give an altar call  - even after teaching about healing or some other subject. And time and time again people come to the altar to get born again. As Paul said, we should be rejoicing, not criticizing. 

 

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Anyway, can you find a scripture that shows it is our job to speak against others because we don't like their message? 

It's not that I don't love them. I would show them love if and when the moment arises. But the behavior and false teachings? You really think we should just let that go? It's not about liking the message. If the message is opposition to scripture it's false and should be rejected at once. 

Matt 23:1-39. About the Pharisees.

Matt 18

"“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Titus 3:10-11 

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

1 Corinthians 5:11 

But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Galatians 2:11-14 

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

There is more but we see there is a great deal written about confronting that which is not aligned with scripture. It's a biblical mandate. We only have to be careful we are not hypocritical ourselves or self righteous. 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So don't follow them! That is simple and good advice. All I am saying is, ignore them, DON'T criticize them. 

Ignore false teaching and false prophecies that lead millions astray? 

Titus 1

For many are rebellious and full of empty talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced. For the sake of dishonorable gain, they undermine entire households and teach things they should not. As one of their own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”c

This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sternly, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of men who have rejected the truth.

To the pure, all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their actions they deny Him. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.

"

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God is more than able to do what He deems is proper for a false teacher. 

 

Of course there is this as well.

Ephesians 5

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light."

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course there is this as well.

Ephesians 5

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light."

I don't think this is referring to born again people  - our brothers or sisters in the Lord - who are teaching something other than truth.  They are not teaching in secret like David Koresh. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ignore false teaching and false prophecies that lead millions astray? 

Titus 1

For many are rebellious and full of empty talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced. For the sake of dishonorable gain, they undermine entire households and teach things they should not. As one of their own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”c

This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sternly, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of men who have rejected the truth.

To the pure, all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their actions they deny Him. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed."

Unless you know these afore mentioned men personally, you don't know if they fit these verses. First, I don't think any of them are Jews. We can be sure they are not from Crete. Why would you even imagine they deny God? 

⁵ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

¹⁰ For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Perhaps if you had some kind of proof other than hearsay that any of these mentioned people are rebellious and teach deception, and deny God....you would have something to go on. But then, you are no OVER them as an Apostle as Titus was in this passage of scripture: it was his place as their leader to set things in order. 

Have you personally gone to any of these people, and sat with them and discussed your problems with their teaching? You know that is the proper was to solve these problems. Have you ever PRAYED for any of them? 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

It's not that I don't love them. I would show them love if and when the moment arises. But the behavior and false teachings? You really think we should just let that go? It's not about liking the message. If the message is opposition to scripture it's false and should be rejected at once. 

Matt 23:1-39. About the Pharisees.

Matt 18

"“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Titus 3:10-11 

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

1 Corinthians 5:11 

But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Galatians 2:11-14 

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

There is more but we see there is a great deal written about confronting that which is not aligned with scripture. It's a biblical mandate. We only have to be careful we are not hypocritical ourselves or self righteous. 

Do ANY of these verses tell us to talk about them behind their back? It is one thing to just ignore them, or not associate with them, but it is another thing to speak against them to others. That is not right. It is not wise.

[Zemke]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do ANY of these verses tell us to talk about them behind their back? It is one thing to just ignore them, or not associate with them, but it is another thing to speak against them to others. That is not right. It is not wise.

That's a weak argument and is impossible to uphold when warning brothers and sisters about false teachers. It is love to tell the truth. We can have the truth and not love but we cannot love without truth. 2John

Paul tells us to not build on another mans foundation and yet that is how Rick and Benny and Kenny and Bill all built their kingdoms. Their materials have been spread into every denomination and their conferences filled with pastors not of their own. 

Charles Russel was a false prophet, Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Is it wrong to tell people their Jesus is not the Jesus of the scriptures because they cannot defend themselves and what they prophecied was false because they are not around to defend themselves? 

One reason the church is a mess in the west is because we have bent the knee to stupid teaching interpretations like, "touch not thy anointed" when the only place this occurs is when David held back from killing Saul. 

When Jude wrote his letter, did he make sure they didn't read it unless those who had crept in unawares where present? Did Paul talk behind peoples back and was wrong for warning the church about certain individuals. Was he not speaking behind their backs? It's an illogical argument and I'm tired of reading it.

So all the people didn't know how John the Baptist felt about the leaders until the religious leaders came out to see him so he was finally able to tell the people they where devils, "You brude of vipers". 

We stood up against that southern cult showing up at military funerals claiming God hates fags, and we spoke against them to our friends and coworkers and were they present? It's impossible to warn about false teachers if those false teachers need to be present. And letting others believe that which is false is not love.

And please don't cherry pick this post to extract something for another lame argument.

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Zemke said:

That's a weak argument and is impossible to uphold when warning brothers and sisters about false teachers. It is love to tell the truth. We can have the truth and not love but we cannot love without truth. 2John

Paul tells us to not build on another mans foundation and yet that is how Rick and Benny and Kenny and Bill all built their kingdoms. Their materials have been spread into every denomination and their conferences filled with pastors not of their own. 

OF was a false prophet, Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Is it wrong to tell people their Jesus is not the Jesus of the scriptures because they cannot defend themselves and what they prophecied was false because they are not around to defend themselves? 

One reason the church is a mess in the west is because we have bent the knee to stupid teaching interpretations like, "touch not thy anointed" when the only place this occurs is when David held back from killing Saul. 

When Jude wrote his letter, did he make sure they didn't read it unless those who had crept in unawares where present? Did Paul talk behind peoples back and was wrong for warning the church about certain individuals. Was he not speaking behind their backs? It's an illogical argument and I'm tired of reading it.

So all the people didn't know how John the Baptist felt about the leaders until the religious leaders came out to see him so he was finally able to tell the people they where devils, "You brude of vipers". 

We stood up against that southern cult showing up at military funerals claiming God hates fags, and we spoke against them to our friends and coworkers and were they present? It's impossible to warn about false teachers if those false teachers need to be present. And letting others believe that which is false is not love.

And please don't cherry pick this post to extract something for another lame argument.

OF COURSE we can warn people about Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormonism and Islam and Buddhism and all other false religions. 

But we are not talking about those now, are we? All the mentioned people teach the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord.  JW's do not. Mormonism does not. Buddhists do not. Islam does not. Hindu's do not. See the difference? 

You want truth? The truth is, if you imagine someone is teaching false doctrines, you are to GO TO that person first, not gossip about them to others. If you think gossiping is right, you need help. 

Paul was an apostle and the head over all the churches he started. He therefore had every right to come against those who were teaching error in his churches. If you are an apostle and have started churches yourself, then you would have the right. 

Do you preach or teach? Are you 100% correct on everything YOU teach? Remember the moat in the eye? NO ONE on these threads are perfect in their teaching. That is why we should leave any "correcting" up to the Lord, or go to people personally and talk with them. 

Why would ANYONE imagine Joyce Meyer is leading a cult? Could it be they are jealous because her ministry could buy out most of the others? Could it be she can fill a stadium with women in her conferences?