Are you nice and comfy in your Christian life?

[OneLight]

Just now, David1701 said:

They are no longer "in Christ" ... once they have been removed. Before that, they were in him by profession and attendance.  As I posted, they were dry branches that did not bear fruit, so they were not attached to the vine in a living way - they had no sap of the Holy Spirit in them, to cause them to bear fruit.

Have you never come across people like that, because I know I have.  They attend meetings and know the right language, they claim to be Christians, but something is just "off" about them and it can be hard to put your finger on it right away.  Then, later on, hidden things are brought to light and it turns out that they were never really saved at all.  The most obvious example I remember, from many years ago, was a middle-aged man who came to our fellowship, claiming to be a Christian and in need of emotional support.  We tried to help but some of us could not shake the feeling that something was very wrong.  Later, we found out that he had been going round many of the churches in our city, pretending to be a Christian and groping young women (he tried it at our fellowship as well).  We contacted the police and they already knew all about him.  We had given him a Bible and discovered it in a dustbin, covered in swastikas and other unsavoury things.  Needless to say, he was not born again.

In order to be In Christ, you have to be saved.  Otherwise, anyone and everyone could be in Christ, which will never happen.  One cna profess to be in Him, but that does not mena they are actually in Him.  So, with this point, I disagree.

Read John 15:1-11 to see how this actually plays out.  Once saved, a person become part of the Vine, Jesus.  If they do not bear fruit, the vinedresser, the Father, will remove them, cast them in a pile, allow them to whither, gather them up, place then in the fire and they will be burned.  In order to be in Him, you have to be saved.

[Don19]

32 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Did God change from the OT to the NT?  You said God never changed His mind and I pointed you to where He has.  Is that so hard to accept?

Before we go any further, let me ask you one thing.  Do you believe John 3:16 to be for all the world, every living person, or is it only for the elected God chose before time itself?

God does not change His mind. The repentance is to be understood within the context of turning away from well-deserved wrath, as I explained. The Old Testament was a conditional covenant of blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. When God could have executed well-deserved wrath for sin, He relented and repented instead, thus pointing us towards His everlasting covenant in which sin is condemned in the flesh. Christ suffered all the covenant curses in our place, so all we have left are blessings. Glory!

Does God literally "remember sins no more"? (Heb 8:12) He is omnipotent and omniscient. Of course not. That is to be understood that He does not impute sins to those who are in Christ. Neither does God change His mind. He created the universe for the purpose of redeeming His elect in Christ Jesus. He had a clear purpose from before the foundation of the world. He does not foresee any event that He Himself has not brought about for His own purpose and glory.

Psalm 115:3:

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

He did ordain from before the foundation of the world that Jesus Christ would die to satisfy His own well-deserved wrath upon His elect--which on account of the work of Jesus Christ in the glorious redemption of unworthy sinners, He has accomplished. Salvation of sinners was not "Plan B" as it were when things went awry in the Garden, but was God's plan from the very beginning (Eph 2:7, Rom 9:22-23). He had eternally purposed to be the Savior of His people! He has eternally purposed to pour out His love upon His elect as both God and Savior!

In John 3:16, I do believe the Greek preposition εἰς would be more accurately rendered as "into" rather than "in." "Believe into" sounds unusual in English, but that's what's conveyed here. This is because by faith the righteousness of God is revealed to us through the gospel (Rom 1:16-17). It is the Holy Spirit Who baptizes (immerses - not with water) the elect into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13), translating us into His kingdom (Col 1:13).

Furthermore, in Greek, John 3:16 would read more like, "so that everyone believing into Him shall not perish" rather that, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish."

This is a faith that can only be given by God. The Son quickeneth whom He will (John 5:21). Neither can any man come to Christ unless it is given to him of the Father (John 6:65). True saving faith, resulting in spiritual union with Christ in Holy Spirit baptism, is a gift of God. Not something the natural man exercises. And that union, once entered into, is everlasting - see "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" - Eph 1:13. Hence, it is an everlasting covenant. An indissoluble union. We become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) which I believe is to say that we enter into an eternal relationship such as exists between the Father and Son. It simply cannot be severed. We are Christ's body, the temple of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 6:19-20), bound to Him eternally. Just like a husband and wife become one flesh - only this one has no possibility of divorce.

[Alive]

12 hours ago, OneLight said:

Why would I want to try and prove what God did is worthless?  I never once said that nor have I ever hinted it in any way.  That is your mistake when it comes to understanding what I believe.  Yes, you are stating what you believe, and I agree with everything you said as God will never relinquish His responsibilities.

Tell me on thing, where did you once mention your responsibilities?  Did you become a robot or computer once you accepted Christ where your free will was taken from you?  You see, you remove yourself from the picture completely, which is your mistake.  What were the purposes of all the lessons Jesus taught, all the warnings found in the NT, all the warnings Jesus spoke to the 7 churches in Revelation if it could never happen to a believer?

Yes, we have talked about this before.  Yet, there is no contradiction with anything I have brought forth, except in your eyes as it does not square up with your theology.  Just because it does not agree with what you believe doesn't make it wrong.

My responsibilities are inferred as a son...to respect and honor my Father and to learn over time what pleases Him and what does not and to align my thinking with His.

Folks call that a process of sanctification....it is a life long endeavor. My Father is responsible for helping me along that pathway and without Him, I can do nothing!

Fully realizing that also took time and a whole bunch of life experiences.

:-)

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

My responsibilities are inferred as a son...to respect and honor my Father and to learn over time what pleases Him and what does not and to align my thinking with His.

Folks call that a process of sanctification....it is a life long endeavor. My Father is responsible for helping me along that pathway and without Him, I can do nothing!

Fully realizing that also took time and a whole bunch of life experiences.

:-)

Again, we agree.  So, what is it that you see that is contradictory to scripture?

[enoob57]

12 hours ago, OneLight said:

Read John 15:1-11 to see how this actually plays out.  Once saved, a person become part of the Vine, Jesus.  If they do not bear fruit, the vinedresser, the Father, will remove them, cast them in a pile, allow them to whither, gather them up, place then in the fire and they will be burned.  In order to be in Him, you have to be saved.

This at the judgment seat of Christ
 

1 Cor 3:13-15

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV


If fruit is not produced the vine suffers loss but those that are his- that passes through the fire- yet because they are not of this world even as He is not of this world the fire of God that burns all of first creation and the works thereof away will not burn up; for that which is set for the second and everlasting creation  enters in as Jesus promised.... this is rightly dividing the understanding I believe....

[OneLight]

12 hours ago, Don19 said:

God does not change His mind.

You don't want to believe scripture then there is nothing I could ever say to show you your error.

12 hours ago, Don19 said:

Furthermore, in Greek, John 3:16 would read more like, "so that everyone believing into Him shall not perish" rather that, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish."

This is a faith that can only be given by God. The Son quickeneth whom He will (John 5:21). Neither can any man come to Christ unless it is given to him of the Father (John 6:65). True saving faith, resulting in spiritual union with Christ in Holy Spirit baptism, is a gift of God. Not something the natural man exercises. And that union, once entered into, is everlasting - see "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" - Eph 1:13. Hence, it is an everlasting covenant. An indissoluble union. We become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) which I believe is to say that we enter into an eternal relationship such as exists between the Father and Son. It simply cannot be severed. We are Christ's body, the temple of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 6:19-20), bound to Him eternally. Just like a husband and wife become one flesh - only this one has no possibility of divorce.

John 3:16 actually would read in Greek " thus for loves the God the world so-that the Son of-him the only-begotten he-gives that every the one-believing into him no should-be-perishing but may-be-having life eonian."  The meaning does not change.

Why do you find it so hard to answer a simple question?  Do you see John 3:16 to apply only to the "elect" or is it an invitation for the whole world?

[OneLight]

This is page three and there has only been one post pertaining to the subject at hand, written by David1701.  Everyone else is sidestepping what the OP was about and derailed to head down the path of trying to discard the reason of the OP.

Yet, I will continue to answer ...

18 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

13 hours ago, OneLight said:

Read John 15:1-11 to see how this actually plays out.  Once saved, a person become part of the Vine, Jesus.  If they do not bear fruit, the vinedresser, the Father, will remove them, cast them in a pile, allow them to whither, gather them up, place then in the fire and they will be burned.  In order to be in Him, you have to be saved.

This at the judgment seat of Christ
 

1 Cor 3:13-15

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV


If fruit is not produced the vine suffers loss but those that are his- that passes through the fire- yet because they are not of this world even as He is not of this world the fire of God that burns all of first creation and the works thereof away will not burn up; for that which is set for the second and everlasting creation  enters in as Jesus promised.... this is rightly dividing the understanding I believe....

The parable of The True Vine, John 15:1-8 is not the same as the Bema Seat Judgments.  In the parable, the branch (believer) that does not bear fruit the Father takes away.  At the Bema Seat, the works are burned that are made of wood, hay, or straw.  In the parable, if the branch (believer) does not abide in Christ (the Vine), he is cast out as a branch and is withered, gather, then thrown them into the fire and is burned.  At the Bema Seat, the believer does not loose his salvation, but only loss.

They Are Not The Same Lesson.

Edited June 16, 2020 by OneLight

[enoob57]

Just now, OneLight said:

This is page three and there has only been one post pertaining to the subject at hand, written by David1701.  Everyone else is sidestepping what the OP was about and

The parable of The True Vine, John 15:1-8 is not the same as the Bema Seat Judgments.  In the parable, the branch (believer) that does not bear fruit the Father takes away.  At the Bema Seat, the works are burned that are made of wood, hay, or straw.  In the parable, if the branch (believer) does not abide in Christ (the Vine), he is cast out as a branch and is withered, gather, then thrown them into the fire and is burned.  At the Bema Seat, the believer does not loose his salvation, but only loss.

They Are Not The Same Lesson.

That both are passed through fire cannot be ignored... with your belief you are doing the holding with mine The Father is doing the holding...
 

John 10:28-30

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.
KJV
 

[David1701]

13 hours ago, OneLight said:

In order to be In Christ, you have to be saved.  Otherwise, anyone and everyone could be in Christ, which will never happen.  One cna profess to be in Him, but that does not mena they are actually in Him.  So, with this point, I disagree.

Read John 15:1-11 to see how this actually plays out.  Once saved, a person become part of the Vine, Jesus.  If they do not bear fruit, the vinedresser, the Father, will remove them, cast them in a pile, allow them to whither, gather them up, place then in the fire and they will be burned.  In order to be in Him, you have to be saved.

The principle involved is that they are not all Israel who are of Israel.  They are not all born again who are professing Christians.  Loose branches can be in a vine but they are not attached to the vine and have no sap in them.  Birds can be in a tree; but they are not part of the tree.  People can be in Christ outwardly, by attending Christian meetings and naming the name of Christ, but not be spiritually attached to the vine.

Yes, once saved, a person becomes part of the Vine; but you can be in the Vine (i.e. the body of Christ) without being a spiritual part of the Vine.

The problem is, and I've seen many people make this kind of mistake, that you are assuming that the warnings, in the NT, refer to people who have been saved; but MOST of the warnings refer to people who are not saved (they might think that they are and they might be very religious).  The warnings that refer to saved people, are warnings about rewards, not about supposedly losing salvation.

The Bible is clear that EVERYONE who has been born again CANNOT return to to a life of sin and DOES overcome.

1 John 3:9 (EMTV) No-one who has been born of God practises sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

1 John 5:4 (EMTV) because everything having been born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world—your faith.

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

That both are passed through fire cannot be ignored... with your belief you are doing the holding with mine The Father is doing the holding...
 

John 10:28-30

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.
KJV
 

There is no purgatory, noob, for one to pass through to restore one to Christ, so in the parable, the branch, the person themselves, is burned.  Period, end of story.  It was not the choice of Jesus, the Father, or any other outside force that caused the branch to not remain in Christ, but the choice of the person themselves.  Everything that is spoken of in John 10:28-30 is speaking of an external force, as if someone could come up and take them away.  It is not addressing the fact that the person themselves can turn from God.

You will find that Jesus pointed out in many of His teachings that a person can, by their actions or non-actions, be rejected.  The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant (Matthew 18:21-35) speaks of one who was forgiven a debt that they could never replay, showing what the Cross did for us.  Yet, in turn, the one forgiven did not forgive those who owed him very little.  Because of this action, his forgiveness was removed from him and he himself was thrown into prison until everything owed was repaid, which could never be fulfilled.  

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant (Matthew 24:45-51) speaks about two different servants - keep in mind that one needs to be saved to be His servant.  One does good and is trusted with more, while the other chooses to do what is wrong and he is cut in two, appoint his portion with the hypocrites where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins speaks of five wise virgins who have enough oil to meet the Bridegroom at any time He returns, while the other five did not maintain what they would need and had to, at the last moment, try to find enough oil.  The result was the five foolish virgins were rejected.

The Parable of the Talent (Matthew 25:14-29) speaks about three servants, whom their Lord gave them talents according to their abilities, one He gave 10 talents to, another 5 talents and the last 1 talent.  When the Lord returned, both servants who received the 10 and 5 talents doubled what was given to them, and the Lord rewarded them.  But, the one who received just 1 talent did nothing with what he was given, but hid it so he would not lose it.  The Lord was very upset with his lack of doing anything to prosper from that he was given and took the one talent and gave it to the one who had 10.  Then the "wicked and lazy servant" was cast into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These are just from the Book of Matthew, and not all the parables Jesus taught from.  Each one shows how the choices we make can change our standing in Him.  Those who follow His leading are rewarded. but those who reject His leading will be cast out.  These are due to our choices, not those of any other man or outside force, but us.