Fine Linen is the Righteousness of Saints

[Revelation Man]

On 6/24/2020 at 7:44 PM, Uriah said:

There is no bride mentioned in these two chapters. The word "white" is not even in ch. 5.

 

So who do you think they are? Rev. 19 states they are The Bride in verses 7,8 and 14... 

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So, the MARRIAGE of the Church to the Lambs time has COME..........Then they return in Fine White Linen. Now let's look at Revelation 4 and 5. God/Jesus couldn't be shouting on a MEGAPHONE...THIS IS THE CHURCH....any louder than these scriptures below are shouting. Firstly we get the Church Age in Rev. 2 and 3 and there we clearly see the THINGS THEY ARE PROMISED for overcoming, then we see they have those very things in Rev. 4:4, which is after John is told to COME UP HERE in Rev. 4:1.

(BELOW) THE PROMISED REWARDS as seen in Rev. 2 and 3 to those that OVERCOME or to those who are FAITHFUL unto Death

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Now, let's look at Rev. 4:4 to see the Church/Bride in Heaven with these PROMISED REWARDS

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

It's like Jesus is hollering at us........THIS IS THE CHURCH/Bride in Heaven !! This is my Bride in White Raiment.........They have all the REWARDS PROMISED to those that were Faithful unto Death and to those who OVERCOME. It's not happenstance God gave these verses to us. We can then flip over to Rev. 5:9-10 to see the further proof this is the Church/Bride in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to OPEN THE SEALS thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Again, God/Jesus couldn't be any plainer about who this is, Angels do not need REDEEMING !! It's the Church/Bride in White Linen. They are out of {we I should say, } every NATION ON EARTH and of EVERY TYPE PEOPLES, thus its the Worldwide Church/Bride of Jesus Christ as seen in Revelation chapters 4 and 5. This is not in doubt. Now, why was the 24 Elders moniker used? For the exact same reason we are called PRIESTS in verse 10 above, see 1 Chronicles 24, the whole chapter is about the 24 Orders of the Priesthood !! God uses metaphors throughout the book of Revelation, and Jesus even spoke to his Disciples in parables, so they would hear and understand, but the World hearing would not hear, and seeing would not see. We are a CALLED OUT BUNCH.....We are supposed to be able to dig these things out of the scriptures, yet we seem to just not be able to do it on way to many occasions, then when we get off-tracked, we have PRIDE that gets in our way because as humans we can't ever admit to being wrong. From my perspective that is why people can't dig out these truths. I should know, I was stuck in the EXACT SAME RUT for 25 years, just as people I see today are stuck in a rut, all because people tend to cling to Men's Traditions.

So, there is nor can there ever be ANY DOUBT that those shown in Rev. 4 and 5 are the Church/Bride adorned in White, shown in Rev. 4 and 5 AFTER she marries the Lamb in Heaven but BEFORE the Seals are opened and BEFORE she Returns with Jesus on White Horses as Conquerors.

On 6/24/2020 at 7:44 PM, Uriah said:

Chapter 19 is mostly about Jesus conquering His enemies. The bride is in 3 verses. Nowhere in ch. 4 or 5 is any mention of Jesus and His army slaying anyone. 

 

I pretty much explain this above, I can however add this, the Book of Revelation is a bunch of chapters covering the same time period with DIFFERENT SUBTEXTS so to speak. For instance, it has a beautiful unity, if one can see it.

Rev. 1 is Jesus as seen in all His GLORY....{The things which you have seen, a glorified Jesus, that was IMPORTANT, Jesus was ALIVE}

Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age that we are in now.....{The things which ARE or the here and now before the 70th week}

Everything after Rev. 4:1 equals the HEREAFTER.....Rev. 4 and 5 I explained in detail above, it's the Church/Bride in Heaven before Jesus opens the Seven Seals. Rev. chapter 6 is Jesus opening the Seven Seals but it's all Prophetic in Nature, the Scroll can not be read until Jesus breaks all Seven Seals. Rev. 7 is the 144,000 or ALL the Jews who Repented, who are thus Fleeing to Petra just BEFORE the DOTL hits in Rev. 8. 

Rev. 8, 9, 15&16 are the Judgment Chapters. They cover God's 42 Months of Wrath IN FULL by themselves. 

All of the other Chapters are Parenthetical Citations (SAVE Rev. 20, 21, and 22), which happen during chapters 8, 9, and 15&16. They all have SPECIFIED SUBTEXTS to them, thus it's like God saying, During these 42 months of Wrath, this will also happen, and this will happen, and this will also happen etc. etc. etc.

So, let's go over the Parenthetical Citation Chapters and see what each one is trying to tell us.

Rev. 10 is pretty much just God/Jesus telling us that when the 7 Trumpets are Sounded time will be no more [as we know it.]

Rev. 11 is SPECIFICALLY about the Two-witnesses ministries. It even tells us in the first 3 verses they have come to call only the Jews to repentance. God told John to MEASURE the Temple AND those that worship therein {Jews} and as per the COURT {Gentile portion} which is without the Temple He told John not to Measure that. That is God telling us what the Two-witnesses parameters are in a CODED FASHION. Malachi 4:5-6 confirms this, Elijah will be sent back to TURN Israel back unto God BEFORE the DOTL {1260 event} arrives. They Two-witnesses thus show up BEFORE the Anti-Christ and DOTL arrives via the asteroid strike in Rev . 8, they arrive at the 1335, which is 75 days BEFORE the 1260 {Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering} and 45 days BEFORE the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} STOPS Jesus Worship in the Temple by those Jews who the Two-witnesses TURNED BACK unto God just as Zechariah 12:10, 13:1 and 13:8-9 says will happen JUST BEFORE the Zechariah 14:1-2 DOTL arrives !!

Then this same False Prophet places the AoD in the Temple of God, it will be an IMAGE of the Beast just like Rev. 13 describes, the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} places that IMAGE in Rev. 13, he's so incensed that 1/3 of the Jews are worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God and thus he FORBIDS Jesus Worship, then out of spite he does what Jason {High Priest who BRIBED Antiochus to be named the High Priest, real name Yeshua} did under Antiochus, he throws in with the enemy of the Jews. Go research it. Since the Two-witnesses DIE before the Beast and both have earthly missions ordained by God of 1260 days, then the Two-witnesses indeed have to SHOW UP BEFORE the Beast comes to power !! The reason the 7th Trump is said to bring VICTORY is that the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe {see Rev. 8:13} and thus the 3rd Woe is ALL 7 Vials. So, the 7th Trump will indeed bring VICTORY by Jesus. But we are not given the FULL DETAILS in Rev. 11, that is given in Rev. 16, the last Judgment Chapter where the Angel says IT IS DONE!! This is perfectly OK because we are also told about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, but not given ANY DETAILS because we were given the FULL DETAILS on the 2nd Woe in Rev. 9, see how it all meshes? This is the Two-witnesses chapter. It's not a REAL-TIME EVENT per se. 

Rev. 12 is all about Israel fleeing Judea unto Petra, we see it in Rev. 7 also, and God calls her to COME OUT of Babylon in Rev. 18:4.

Rev. 13 is all about the Anti-Christ/Beast Arising from the Mediterranean Sea Area after having been dormant for nigh 2000 years.

Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter. I think I explain this above somewhere. It shows the Wheat & Tares AND the Pre-trib Rapture in verse 14.

Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Harlot who is ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time. The Beast and his 10 Kings will wipe her off the face of the earth, there is only room for ONE GOD and that is what the Beast sees himself as, worthy of the worship of all mankind, you will either Worship the Beast or DIE...So says Rev. 13, he will destroy Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and all these other Religions via his vanity, thus God uses him to JUDGE these Harlot Religions !! 

Rev. 18 is the same thing as Rev. 8, 9, 15&16 as per the TIME-LINE however it's just God/Jesus painting us a picture of these Evil Merchants and Evil Kings who trusted in THIS WORLD over God, we see them crying and moaning over the DESTRUCTION of their precious Babylon which in reality is THE WHOLE WORLD under Satan, the god of this world. Amen. We are told Babylon has become a HABITATION of devils in verse 2, CHECK...Satan has been cast down and the Bottomless Pit opened up, Apollyon and his hordes set free.  Then in verse 4, we see God calling his {Israeli Jews who repented/144,0000} people to COME OUT OF HER [Babylon] lest they partake in her sins AND her Judgment Plagues. So the 1/3 who flee Judea indeed are PROTECTED and the 2/3 who do not repent will indeed perish or be CUT OFF just like Zechariah 13:8-9 says. 

Further on, we get the Details of the Trumpet and Vial Plagues, the Seals are not real-time events but PROPHETIC UTTERINGS of what the Anti-Christ will do {Seal 1-5} during the 42 Months in which God will judge Mankind on earth. The 6th Seal likewise is PROPHETIC UTTERING'S ALSO, but it's about God's SOON TO COME Wrath when the asteroid strikes the earth via the First Four Trumpet Judgments. So, Rev. 18 is all about the Trumpet and Vial Judgments on mankind.

So, why are the MERCHANTS and Kings Crying and Lamenting Babylon burning and being destroyed? The SAME KINGS Hated the Harlot and burned her willingly, now they hate that Babylon {Whole World} is being Judged and burned. The Grasses are burned up, 1/3 of the trees are burned up, 1/3 of the Sea turns to Blood, 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die, 1/3 of the ships are destroyed, 1/3 of all the fresh waters are poisoned, the Anti-Christ murders 1/4 of all mankind, the 200 Million Angelic Army slays 1/3 of all those who have taken the Mark of the Beast. So, there are 3-4 billion deaths right there, on top of that the world is burning, the asteroid hits just of the California coastline and IMHO destroys the United States, thereby RELEASING the Anti-Christ to go forth Conquering, there is a void in power and he takes advantage of this incident in Rev. 8. God says that Babylon will be destroyed in ONE DAY in verse 8, well the DOTL lasts 42 months. God says Babylon will be wiped out in ONE HOUR, and in Rev. 17:12 we see that the Kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast and that = 42 months.{CODES & METAPHORS}

Rev. 19 is self-explanatory really, it covers the FULL SEVEN YEARS, The Rapture, and Marriage of the Lamb all the way to Armageddon.

Rev. 20 is the Judgment Seat Chapter. Rev. 21 and 22 are the EVER-AFTER & New Jerusalem chapters.

Rev. chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments {DOTL}, Rev. 11 starts 75 days BEFORE the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments and thus the Two-witnesses die 75 days BEFORE the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, BUT we are still told about the coming VICTORY of the 7th Trumpet because the Two-witnesses prayed all the Judgments/Plagues down onto Mankind, it says so in scriptures, thus it was a part of their Ministry.

Rev. 14 and 19 BOTH Cover the full 7 years between the Rapture and the Second Coming. 

On 6/24/2020 at 7:44 PM, Uriah said:

NO time marker for 7 years in those chapters OR ch. 14........

 

SEE ABOVE............

On 6/24/2020 at 7:44 PM, Uriah said:

Why go on? Let's stick to what the bible SAYS............

Study what the bible says and maybe you will see what I see brother. I just proved all my points correct. 
 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 6/25/2020 at 5:53 AM, Diaste said:

 

3 Bible results for “remnant.” Showing results 1-3.

Romans 11:5 [Full Chapter]

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 9:27

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 11:1

[ The Remnant of Israel ] I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 11:5

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

The only occurrences from Matthew to Revelation and both in the context of the Jewish people. The example from Romans 11:1 is a heading and not scripture. These examples speak to natural Jews of the 12 tribes and not the grafted in ones.

So again, no concept as 'remnant church' in scripture. But the 'church' idea is flawed as well. The congregation is a whole. There aren't saved Jews and saved Gentiles, there are just saved people. Those saved people are in Christ and are the seed of Abraham, and that's it. Not two groups, only one; and they are of every nation of earth. But this doesn't answer the OP.

"So all these times we see hagios it's the saints of God, the church of Jesus Christ, the set apart ones in the righteousness of Christ.

So then this one mention must be the same group, yes?

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them." - Rev 13:7"

The idea you struggle with is the word remnant in Rev 12 and it's not the same idea as in Romans. In Romans it's a part of a whole, it's a group named 'Remnant'. In Rev 12 the idea is the left over and describes the seed. And it's the seed of the woman who is Israel. You can lurch about claiming it's  a portion of the church if you like but it isn't.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

That's the seed of Israel that has the testimony of Jesus, not some portion of the church that fits a pretrib narrative. And that means it's everyone that has the testimony of Jesus so again, no pretrib.

 

I don't start out ASSUMING that God can only use the word REMNANT in one manner or for on thing or for one peoples. That seems to be what you do here. Likewise, that has thrown people off via those coming out of the GREAT TRIBULATION in Revelation 7:9-17, they are the Church who came out of 2000 years of Tribulation. But because people have LIMITED in their own minds what GREAT TRIBULATION can be to ONLY ONE THING, the 70th week tribulation, they miss what this really is, the Church in Heaven. As seen in Rev. 4 and 5 also. 

Likewise, the Remnant is ANYTHING God wants to call a Remnant, it could be about the Jews or the Gentiles, whatever context God uses is the context we have to figure out. And in this instance, it CAN'T BE Jews, of course you want to argue anything but THE FACTS of what the scriptures in Rev. 12:17 say because the FACTS defeat your opinion, and you know it. So, you run for the hills on the merits.

The REMNANT as I have PROVEN can not be Jews, that is just a fact sir. It leaves your Rapture timing in shambles, so you have to argue against the facts, I understand, but you don't really have to, you can just admit your Rapture timing is in error brother.

God Bless..............Remember, the truth is all that matters. 

Those fleeing are PROTECTED so the Dragon gets ANGRY and goes after someone else {so it can't be the 1/3 Jews who are fleeing}. Then it says they have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, and the 2/3 Jews can not have that........It can ONLY BE the Remnant Gentile Church. And you know this brother.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Revelation Man

[WilliamL]

On 6/23/2020 at 3:17 AM, Diaste said:

The idea is; if the hagios are the ones receiving the blessings, salvation, protection in the faith of God as mentioned 12 times in Revelation, and those saints are the church, then the hagios in Rev 13:7 is the same group of hagios, or the church. What say you?

Those in Rev. 13 are the earthly, faithful believers in Yeshua, the ones coming to faith after the Rapture. They include those of Israel of Zech. 12:10 --

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

When they "see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:64; cf. Rev. 1:7 and 6:16-17), then they will repent and believe, but too late to avoid going through the time of Jacob's trouble.

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Quote

 

So who do you think they are? Rev. 19 states they are The Bride in verses 7,8 and 14.... 

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

So, you completely skipped what what I AND YOU quoted...Rev. 4&5 after you said your pronouncements about them. And went to an entirely different chapter and verse. I am not going to play chase the pinball. 

So, the MARRIAGE of the Church to the Lambs time has COME..........Then they return in Fine White Linen. Now lets look at Rev. 4 and 5. God, Jesus couldn't be shouting on a MEGAPHONE....THIS IS THE CHURCH....any louder than these scriptures below are shouting. Firstly we get the Church Age in Rev. 2 and 3 and we get get THINGS THEY ARE PROMISED for overcoming, then we see they have those very things in Rev. 4:4, which is after John is told to COME UP HERE in Rev. 4:1.

THE PROMISED REWARDS as seen in Rev. 2 and 3 to those that OVERCOME or to those who are FAITHFUL unto Death

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Now, lets look at Rev. 4:4 to see the Church/Bride in  Heaven with these PROMISED REWARDS

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Its like Jesus is hollering at us........THIS IS THE CHURCH/Bride in Heaven !! This is my Bride in White Raiment.........They have all the REWARDS PROMISED to those that were Faithful unto Death and to those who OVERCOME. Its not happenstance God gave these verses to us. We can then flip over to Rev. 5:9-10 to see further proof this is the Church/Bride in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Again, God//Jesus couldn't be any plainer about who this is, Angels do not need REDEEMING !! Its the Church/Bride in White Linen. They are out of {we I should say, } every NATION ON EARTH and of EVERY TYPE PEOPLES, thus its the Worldwide Church/Bride of Jesus Christ as seen in Revelation chapters 4 and 5. This is not in doubt. Now, why was 24 Elders used? For the exact same reason we are called PRIESTS in verse 10 above, see 1 Chronicles 24, the whole chapter is about the 24 Orders of the Priesthood !! God uses Metaphors throughout the book of Revelation, and Jesus even spoke to his Disciples in parables, so they would hear and understand, but the World hearing would not hear, and seeing would not see. We are a CALLED OUT BUNCH.....We are supposed to be able to dig these things out of the scriptures, yet we seem to just not be able to do it on way to many occasions, then when we get off-tracked, we have PRIDE that gets in our way because as humans we can't ever admit to being wrong. From my perspective that is why people can't dig out these truths. I should know, I was stuck in the EXACT SAME RUT for 25 years as people I see today, because they cling to Men's Traditions.

So, there is nor can be ANY DOUBT that those shown in Rev. 4 and 5 is the Bride adorned in White, shown in Rev. 4 and 5 AFTER she marries the Lamb in Heaven but BEFORE the Seals are opened and BEFORE she Returns with Jesus on White Horses as Conquerors.

 

I pretty much explain this above, I can however add this, the Book of Revelation is a bunch of chapters covering the same time period with DIFFERENT SUBTEXTS so to speak. For instance, it has a beautiful unity, if one can see it.

Rev. 1 is Jesus seen in all His GLORY....{The things which you have seen, a glorified Jesus, that was IMPORTANT, Jesus was ALIVE}

Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age that we are in now.....{The things which ARE or the here and now before the 70th week}

Everything after Rev. 4:1 equals the HEREAFTER.....Rev. 4 and 5 I explained in detail above, its the Church/Bride in Heaven before Jesus opens the Seven Seals. Rev. chapter 6 is Jesus opening the Seven Seals but its all Prophetic in Nature, the Scroll can be read until Jesus breaks all Seven Seal. Rev. 7 is the 144,000 {ALL Jews who Repented Fleeing to Petra just BEFORE the DOTL hits in Rev. 8. 

Rev. 8, 9, 15&16 are the Judgment Chapters. They cover God's 42 Months of Wrath IN FULL by themselves. 

All the other Chapters are Parenthetical Citations (save Rev. 20, 21 and 22), which happen during chapters 8, 9, and 15&16. They all have SPECIFIED SUBTEXTS to them, thus its like God saying, During these 42 months of Wrath, this will also happen, and this will happen, and this will also happen etc. etc. etc.

So, lets go over the Parenthetical Citation Chapters and see what each one is trying to tell us.

Rev. 10 is pretty much just God/Jesus telling us that when the 7 Trumpets are Sounded time will be no more [as we know it.]

Rev. 11 is SPECIFICALLY about the Two-witnesses ministries. It even tells us in the first 3 verses they have come to call only the Jews to repentance. God told John to MEASURE the Temple AND those that worship therein {Jews} and as per the COURT {Gentile portion} which is without the Temple He told John not to Measure that. That is Gd telling us what the Two-witnesses parameters are in a CODED FASHION. Malachi 4:5-6 confirms this, Elijah will be sent back to TURN Israel back unto God BEFORE the DOTL {1260 event} arrives. They Two-witnesses thus show up BEFORE the Anti-Christ and DOTL arrives via the asteroid strike in Rev . 8, they arrive at the 1335, which is 75 days BEFORE the 1260 {Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering} and 45 days BEFORE the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} STOPS Jesus Worship in the Temple but those who the Two-witnesses TURNED BACK unto God just as Zechariah 12:10, 13:1 and 13:8-9 says will happen BEFORE the Zechariah 14:1-2 DOTL arrives !!

Then this same False Prophet places the AoD in the Temple of God, it will  be an IMAGE of the Beast just like Rev. 13 describes, the F.P. places that IMAGE in Rev. 13, hes so incensed that 1/3 of the Jews are worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God he FORBIDS Jesus Worship, then out of spite he does what Jason did under Antiochus, he throws in with the enemy of the Jews. God research it. Since the Two-witnesses DIE before the Beast and both have earthly missions ordained by God of 1260 days, then the Two-witnesses indeed have to SHOW UP BEFORE the Beast comes to power !! The reason the 7th Trump is said to bring VICTORY is because the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe {see Rev. 8:13} and thus the 3rd Woe is ALL 7 Vials. So, the 7th Trump will indeed bring VICTORY by Jesus. But we are not given the FULL DETAILS, that is given in Rev. 16, the last Judgment Chapter where the Angel says IT IS DONE!! This is perfectly OK because we are also told about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, but not given ANY DETAILS because we were given the FULL DETAILS on the 2nd Woe in Rev. 9, see how it all meshes? This is the Two-witnesses chapter. Its not a REAL TIME EVENT per se. 

Rev. 12 is all about Israel fleeing Judea unto Petra, we see it in Rev. 7 also, and God calls her to COME OUT of Babylon in Rev. 18:4.

Rev. 13 is all about the Anti-Christ/Beast Arising from the Mediterranean Sea Area after having been dormant for nigh 2000 years.

Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter. I think I explain this above somewhere. It shows the Wheat & Tares AND the Pre-trib Rapture in verse 14.

Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Harlot who is ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time. The Beast and his 10 Kings will wipe her off the face of the earth, there is only room for ONE GOD and that is what the Beast sees himself as, worthy of the worship of all mankind, you will either Worship the Beast or DIE...So says Rev. 13, he will destroy Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all these other Religions via his vanity, thus God uses him to JUDGE these Harlot Religions !! 

Rev. 18 is the same thing as Rev. 8, 9, 15:16 as per the TIME-LINE however its just God/Jesus painting us a picture of these Evil Merchants and Evil Kings who trusted in THIS WORLD over God, we see them crying and moaning over the DESTRUCTION of their precious Babylon which in in reality THE WHOLE WORLD under Satan, the god of this world. Amen. We are told Babylon has become a HABITATION of devils in verse 2, CHECK....Satan has been cast down and the Bottomless Pit opened up, Apollyon and his hordes set free.  Then in verse 4 we see God calling his {Israel Jews who repented/144,0000} people to COME OUT OF HER [Babylon] lest they partake in her sins AND her Judgment Plagues. So the 1/3 who flee Judea indeed are PROTECTED and the 2/3 who do not repent will indeed perish or be CUT OFF just like Zechariah 13:8-9 says. 

Further on, we get the Details of the Trumpet and Vial Plagues, the Seals are not real time events but PROPHETIC UTTERING'S of what the Anti-Christ will do {Seal 1-5} during the 42 Months in which God will judge Mankind on earth. The 6th Seal likewise is PROPHETIC UTTERING'S ALSO, but its about God's SOON TO COME Wrath when the asteroid strikes the earth via the First Four Trumpet Judgments. So, Rev. 18 is all about the Trumpet and Vial Judgments on mankind.

So, why are the MERCHANTS and Kings Crying and Lamenting Babylon burning and being destroyed ? The SAME KINGS Hated the Harlot and burned her willingly, now they hate Babylon {Whole World} being Judged and burned. The Grasses are burned up, 1/3 of the trees are burned up, 1/3 of the Sea turns to Blood, 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die, 1/3 of the ships are destroyed, 1/3 of all the fresh waters are poisoned, the Anti-Christ murders 1/4 of all mankind, the 200 Million Angelic Army slays 1/3 of all those who have taken the Mark of the Beast. So, there is 3-4 billion deaths right there, on top of that the world is burning, the asteroid hits just of the California coastline and IMHO destroys the United States, thereby RELEASING the Anti-Christ to go forth Conquering, there is a void in power and he takes advantage of this incident in Rev. 8. God says that Babylon will be destroyed in ONE DAY in verse 8, well the DOTL lasts 42 months. God says Babylon will be wiped out in ONE HOUR, and in Rev. 17:12 we see that the Kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast and that = 42 months.

Rev. 19 is self explanatory really, it covers the FULL SEVEN YEARS, The Rapture and Marriage of the Lamb all the way to Armageddon.

Rev. 20 is the Judgment Seat Chapter. Rev. 21 and 22 are the EVER-AFTER & New Jerusalem chapters.

Rev. chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments, Rev. 11 starts 75 days BEFORE the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments and the Two-witnesses die 75 days BEFORE the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, BUT we are still told about the coming VICTORY of the 7th Seal because the Two-witnesses prayed all the Judgments/Plagues down onto Mankind, it says so, this it was a part of their Ministry.

Rev. 14 and 19 BOTH Cover the full 7 years between the Rapture and the Second Coming. 

SEE ABOVE............

Study what the bible says and maybe you will see what I see brother. I just proved all my points correct. 
 

You have spewed many pre  trib talking points that have all been debunked. The rapture in Rev. 19 is in v. 1. People that are now in the sky and finally given wedding attire as the Lord is approaching

Your posts seem to go to many topics that weren't in a discussion. I have seen this many times. I almost think you are someone who keeps changing screen names because of the repeating characteristics. Or, there are some who come to boards to discuss but don't know how to. It is not at all like blowing up a balloon and letting it flap around the room. 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I don't start out ASSUMING that God can only use the word REMNANT in one manner or for on thing or for one peoples. That seems to be what you do here. Likewise, that has thrown people off via those coming out of the GREAT TRIBULATION in Rev. 7:9-17, they are the Church who came out of 2000 years of Tribulation.

I don't assume that at all. God can do whatever he decides and He doesn't ask for the counsel of mankind. We are limited by how and when God give us information. If God said it then fine. If he didn't say then we have no authority to assume He meant something He didn't say. Like you do. You just make it up as you go.

 

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

But because people have LIMITED in their own minds what GREAT TRIBULATION can b to one thing, the 70th week tribulation, they miss what this really is, the Church in Heaven. As seen in Rev. 4 and 5 also. 

At least we don't imagine great tribulation to be more than what is stated in scripture. For many years pretrib said GT was 7 years. The it changed to 40 years. Now it's 2000 years. And what is this:"they miss what this really is, the Church in Heaven." The GT is the church in heaven??

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Likewise, the Remnant is ANYTHING God wants to call a Remnant, it could be about the Jews or the Gentiles, whatever context God uses is the context we have to figure out. And in this instance, it CAN'T BE Jews, of course you want to argue anything but THE FACTS of what the scriptures in Rev. 17 say because the FACTS defeat your opinion, and you know it. So, you run for the hills on the merits.

??

The remnant is mentioned in Rev 12 only in some translations, and in Rev 12 the term 'remnant' is not accurate. It's "And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."  And in Rev 12 the Woman is Israel. The rest of her children then are seed of Israel, the Seed of Abraham, those in Christ. These are the ones who heard the Gospel that started with a Jew, in Israel, heard first by Jews, the preached first by Jews, then delivered to the rest of the world by a bunch of Jews; to give the world hope and allowing the grafting in of all those that would believe in to the Olive Tree that is Israel. 

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The REMNANT as I have PROVEN can not be Jews, that is just a fact sir. It leaves your Rapture timing in shambles, so you have to argue against the facts, I understand, but you don;t really have to, you can just admit your Rapture timing is in error brother.

Not my timing. I just read and repeat.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

God Bless..............Remember, the truth is all that matters. 

Those fleeing are PROTECTED so the Dragon gets ANGRY and goes after someone else {so it can't be the 1/3 Jews}. Then it says they have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, and the 2/3 Jews can not have that........It can ONLY BE the Remnant Gentile Church. And you know this brother.

Where are you getting these fractions?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You seemed to have missed the point where I stated Rev. chapter 19 covers the FULL SEVEN YEARS of the 70th week. I will COPY & PASTE it right HERE....It thus covers a 7 year period, just like Rev. 14 does...So, it starts out BEFORE Rev. 4 and 5 because we see the Church has not yet received their White Robes {Raiment} in Rev. 19, they need to Marry the Lamb first, but in Rev. 4 and 5 we see they already have on their White Robes/Raiment. THEN.....time moves forward and they thus Return with Jesus at the Second Coming which sees Armageddon as the Marriage Super. So, it both happens BEFORE Rev. 4 and 5 and AFTER Rev. 6 the 6th Vial because Armageddon is the 7th Vial. That is why I wrote...It thus covers a 7 year period, just like Rev. 14 does, because in Rev. 14:14 we see the Rapture of the Church in a mi chapter SOLILOQUY, whilst we are being told about the Harvest of the Wheat {Jews/144,000} and the Wicked Tares, who grow together until the very end, one is seen on the Mountain with Jesus the others are being placed in the Wine-press of  God's Wrath all in chapter 14. So its the Harvest Chapter that covers 7 full years also. 

You seemed to have missed the fact that time is not stationary as pertaining to the events on earth. The Church is RAPTURED Pre-trib and Returns with Jesus at the Second Coming. Doesn't that add up to 7 Years? Just like I qualify in my post, you just mussed it brother.

Proof? You saying it means nothing. I see nothing that proves ch 19 is a full 7 years or any particular time frame. 

Wheat and tares are not mentioned in ch 14, firstfruits yes. Grapes. Blood. You're mixing metaphors in an attempt to prove something that doesn't exist. 

That this: 

"And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man, with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."

occurs in close proximity to this:

"Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe."

Is understood by,

"Then another angel came out of the temple..." 

This is said twice right after this,

"And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man, with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand."

Since is it "Then..." the two angels that come out of the Temple follow the Son of Man in order and in conjunction. This is the exact moment of Matt 24:30-31. Jesus appears, gathers His people and then destroys  the rebels. Two harvests at the same time, one harvest of believers and the other of death. Not 7 years apart. It only adds up to 7 years in your mind not by proof of the scriptures.

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Those in Rev. 13 are the earthly, faithful believers in Yeshua, the ones coming to faith after the Rapture. They include those of Israel of Zech. 12:10 --

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

When they "see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:64; cf. Rev. 1:7 and 6:16-17), then they will repent and believe, but too late to avoid going through the time of Jacob's trouble.

I posted the references to make my point. What references can you share that divorce a single mention of hagios from the other 12 references to hagios; references that pretrib greedily appropriates only to shun the one mention they don't like.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I don't start out ASSUMING that God can only use the word REMNANT in one manner or for on thing or for one peoples. That seems to be what you do here. Likewise, that has thrown people off via those coming out of the GREAT TRIBULATION in Rev. 7:9-17, they are the Church who came out of 2000 years of Tribulation. But because people have LIMITED in their own minds what GREAT TRIBULATION can b to one thing, the 70th week tribulation, they miss what this really is, the Church in Heaven. As seen in Rev. 4 and 5 also. 

Likewise, the Remnant is ANYTHING God wants to call a Remnant, it could be about the Jews or the Gentiles, whatever context God uses is the context we have to figure out. And in this instance, it CAN'T BE Jews, of course you want to argue anything but THE FACTS of what the scriptures in Rev. 17 say because the FACTS defeat your opinion, and you know it. So, you run for the hills on the merits.

The REMNANT as I have PROVEN can not be Jews, that is just a fact sir. It leaves your Rapture timing in shambles, so you have to argue against the facts, I understand, but you don;t really have to, you can just admit your Rapture timing is in error brother.

God Bless..............Remember, the truth is all that matters. 

Those fleeing are PROTECTED so the Dragon gets ANGRY and goes after someone else {so it can't be the 1/3 Jews}. Then it says they have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, and the 2/3 Jews can not have that........It can ONLY BE the Remnant Gentile Church. And you know this brother.

None of which answers this:

"So all these times we see hagios it's the saints of God, the church of Jesus Christ, the set apart ones in the righteousness of Christ.

So then this one mention must be the same group, yes?

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them." - Rev 13:7

 

[Revelation Man]

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

So, you completely skipped what what I AND YOU quoted...Rev. 4&5 after you said your pronouncements about them. And went to an entirely different chapter and verse. I am not going to play chase the pinball. 

 

The Bible is ONE COLLECTIVE Book of God. God even tells us how to STUDY the scriptures.....

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

So, what you are really saying is you can't argue the points so you just want to play hide the ball.  I did not skip anything, I just PROVED to you and everyone else who are being spoken of in Revelation chapters 4 & 5. So don't give me that excuse brother because you can't overcome the SCRIPTURAL PASSAGES I pointed out. 

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

You have spewed many pre  trib talking points that have all been debunked. The rapture in Rev. 19 is in v. 1. People that are now in the sky and finally given wedding attire as the Lord is approaching

 

You don't DEBUNK ANYTHING, you run and hide from the facts, you dodge everything because you have been defeated. Buts then you want to PLAY PRETEND that you are to worthy to make an effort.......RIGHT, you were proven wrong on the facts and thus you DODGE. It's obvious whats going on here. 

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

Your posts seem to go to many topics that weren't in a discussion. I have seen this many times. I almost think you are someone who keeps changing screen names because of the repeating characteristics. Or, there are some who come to boards to discuss but don't know how to. It is not at all like blowing up a balloon and letting it flap around the room. 

If I was was defeated in such a manner on all points, I would do what you did also, or come to the understanding I was in error. There are NO COUNTERPOINTS you can make, that's for sure. Its the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals in Rev, 4 and 5, and that's a FACT.

[Revelation Man]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

I don't assume that at all. God can do whatever he decides and He doesn't ask for the counsel of mankind. We are limited by how and when God give us information. If God said it then fine. If he didn't say then we have no authority to assume He meant something He didn't say. Like you do. You just make it up as you go.

 

Well then, you have no out, its VERY CLEAR that Rev. 17:12 can not be the Jews. Thus it can ONLY be the Gentile Church. Its like something a 5th grader could deduce from the salient facts brother. They 1/3 {Woman/Israel/Jews} who flee CAN NOT BE The Remnant, because of what the Scripture says.

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How much clearer does this have to be, I think an intellectual man like you knows full well it can not be THE WOMAN {1/3 who are fleeing} because the Dragon/Satan/Anti-Christ WENT AWAY from trying to get at these people because he couldn't get at them, THE EARTH HELPED HER just like in Egypt, so he WENT to attack the REMNANT who keep the Commandments of God AND have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.  This CAN NOT BE the 2/3 Jews who NEVER REPENT and do not Flee Judea, if you can show me ANYWHERE in the bible where people who do not accept Jesus have the TESTIMONY of Jesus I might change my mind, but until then you are just swimming upstream. So, THE REMNANT can't be the Jews, and the facts back that up 100 percent. Thus it can ONLY BE the Remnant Church. The Rapture is Pre Trib, it doesn't matter what ANYONE THINKS. I show the facts and you turn a blind eye. 

On 6/26/2020 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

At least we don't imagine great tribulation to be more than what is stated in scripture. For many years pretrib said GT was 7 years. The it changed to 40 years. Now it's 2000 years. And what is this:"they miss what this really is, the Church in Heaven." The GT is the church in heaven??

 

Not many in the Pre-trib camp see this either tbh. They do the same thing people do with The Remnant, they just ASSUME it has to be the 70th week Tribulation, they have thus also LIMITED God's verbiage to only the 70th week tribulation period, when it can't be that period by definition via the Scriptures. So, the way God taught me staring about 5 years ago, was to never heed what you have been taught via the passing down of Men's Traditions, lest you are taking the wrong path. FOR EXAMPLE, we were all taught the 144,000 were Preachers who were Jews on fire for God during the End Tines..........BUT..........The bible never says that ANYWHERE in the Bible, Psstt, its just a wrong Men's Tradition passed down over the ages. So, what I learned to do was to deconstruct all the passages as passed down, and to reconstruct them using nothing but the Scriptures, just like I did the Remnant above, you know it can't be the Jews because I have proven it, admitting that is always the hard part. 

So, why is it that upon DECONSTRUCTION those in Rev. 7:9-17 can't be those seen in Rev. 6, Seal #5 under the Altar? Well, one must learn to DECONSTRUCT FIRST, if the narrative put forth {like the 144,000 Jewish Preachers} doesn't fit, then you must deconstruct and then RECONSTRUCT. So, what are the pertinent facts {facts are all that matter} that proves this? 

For starters, SEE ABOVE, I prove that the Church/Bride is seen in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened. So Rev. 7:9-17 would be the exact SAME PEOPLES because the exact same verbiage is used as we saw In Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10. {Peoples, Nations, Tongues and Kindreds}

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, the DECONSTRUCTION of the Rev. 7:9-17 understanding for me started right here, the Holy Bible CLEARLY SAYS via Jesus' own words that those seen under the Altar as having died during this 70th week of troubles, MUST WAIT until their fellow brothers have died also in just such a manner as they have.....Psstt, it means they must wait for the Anti-Christs 42-month reign of terror to be FULFILLED !! A little SEASON !! So, those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 CAN NOT be the ones seen under the Altar in Rev. 6:9-11. This is further backed up by the Revelation 20:4 verse that STATES SPECIFICALLY those who died during this 70th week period of TROUBLES are Judged AFTER Jesus returns with us the Church in Rev. 19, this verse also was used by me to DESCONSTRUCT this erroneous tradition.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them{Church will JUDGE}: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It's VERY CLEAR here that the ones under the Altar in Rev. 6:9-11 are JUDGED HERE, and it is CLEARLY SPECIFIED that the only ones who live and reign ON EARTH with Jesus during his 1000 year reign are the one who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast and were thus KILLED for not taking the Mark of the Beast. So, those at Seal #5 who were told they must WAIT a little season, are seen to have been JUDGED in Revelation chapter 20, AFTER the Second Coming, so they can not be the ones seen in Heaven on Rev. 7:9-17 can they? You see, you guys are going by, passed down TRADITIONS, I am allowing God via the SCRIPTURES {which is far more IMPORTANT} to show me the facts. 

So, after DECONSTRUCTION, we have to understand, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can not be those seen under the Altar at the 5th Seal, it's just not possible, so then I had to figure out why we can not see who those in Rev. 7:9-16 really are and why we were having so much trouble seeing who they actually were. After understanding the Church is in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5 it was pretty evident those seen in Rev. 7 were also the Church/Bride in Heaven. But why did John/Jesus use the Great Tribulation I wondered, then it hit me, the problem was with US........Men's Traditions......Not with the words Jesus used, we DEMAND God/Jesus use that phrase of Great Tribulation ONLY with the 70th-week troubles, but Jesus himself told the Disciples that we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION in this world, so there will be tribulation from the time Jesus gave the Church the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, all the way to the Rapture, then there will be the 70th-week troubles and there will be one period that is, of course, GREATER than all other periods of tribulation in history, BUT, the severity is not the only thing that can be GREATER..........the two periods, one 2000 some odd years and one 7 years can be measured also can't it? Thus, the 2000 some odd year period which will end with the Rapture, better known as the Church Age, is a GREATER PERIOD than the 7 years 70th week period. So, no one is CHANGING ANYTHING, that's all in your limited way of thinking on this. There is a Great Tribulation Period John/Jesus is referring to as per the "CHURCH AGE" which is 2000 years compared to the 70th week which is 7 years. 2000>7 can not be argued, its a FACT............................2000>7 is a factoid, it is GREATER THAN 7. And, there is a time of GREAT TROUBLES like never seen before, the two do not have to be MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE to each other. 

Now, which should I think it is? The one it CAN NOT BE because as I described in Rev. 6:9-11 and in Rev. 20:4 why it CAN NOT BE those people under the Altar, or the 2000 some odd year Church Age TRIBULATIONS which CAN BE a fact because 2000 is GREATER than 7 !! There is only ONE CHOICE, God can't lie sir. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Revelation Man