WilliamL Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 3:00 PM, Revelation Man said: Which is why I have a problem with people accepting these Epistles as Holy Writ. The are great for teaching etc. etc. but I don't think we can use them as THUS SAITH THE LORD. The Holy Spirit working through the Church RESTRAINS the Anti-Christ from coming forth. So you are saying that we can't trust Paul, but we CAN trust you? Right; but no thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/24/2020 at 3:21 AM, R. Hartono said: Well if that is the US & Trump why cant Paul just write it as a kingdom and its leader ??? Already answered, both in the first post and a later one, which you apparently did not read. Paul was not going to say it was the Empire and its ruler, for what should be obvious reasons; such as staying alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/24/2020 at 4:38 AM, SONshine said: Well, this is the way I understand it. It's Michael, the archangel, who is restraining Satan right now. Rosenthal's opinion. But the same issue applies: why then would Paul not just say so? since that would not have been something that would pique the government of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 17 hours ago, seeking the lost said: The restrainer is the same in the day that this was written to the Thessalonians and this day. There is not a person or a government that has endured for that period of time. Not necessarily. Many would say that the 6th head of the Beast that was present then is still present. Most of the Western democracies are founded largely upon Roman law. Likewise, the legs of Daniel 2's image, which most people believe to be Romanism, was to last until the coming of the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 6:22 PM, wingnut- said: Just a quick bit of history to consider, as far as America restraining lawlessness when in fact our government has been one of the biggest perpetrators of lawlessness on the planet. All true, and completely irrelevant. Just as God sanctioned the Roman Empire in its origins to serve His purposes, so has he sanctioned that empire in its endings for His purposes. The heart of Nebuchadnezzar was in His hand, and Cyrus, and Alexander and so on. The LORD uses the heathen rulers for His own ends, just as He now is using Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2020 40 minutes ago, WilliamL said: All true, and completely irrelevant. The relevance is that you are insinuating they are restraining evil when in fact they have been perpetrating evil. What is irrelevant is the attempt to tie historical empires into this conversation that no one claimed was restraining evil. I certainly made no mention of it, so I'm not going to chase a red herring you created on your own that has no application. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, wingnut- said: The relevance is that you are insinuating they are restraining evil when in fact they have been perpetrating evil. You are misquoting the passage and inserting your own meaning into it. The word is "lawlessness" (2 Thes. 2:7). And that is precisely what governments are formed to do -- restrain lawlessness; like burning and looting and killing. If a government cannot restrain such things, that government eventually falls, and then comes evils in spades, including utterly godless and ruthless revolutionary leaders such as Hitler and Stalin. That is what Paul is indicating will take place. And the first godless and ruthless revolutionary leader that will arise in the End Times is called the Son of Perdition. The pattern was established during the days of Antiochus Epiphanes. From my blog post here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1433-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-3-the-prophetic-fulfillment/ Antiochus Epiphanes and the End Times Part 3: The Prophetic Fulfillment Daniel 11:21-37 prophesied the most significant acts of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (r. 176 – ca. 164 B.C.), one of Daniel 11ʼs human Kings of the North, and also the acts of the Jews during his rule. “In the time of the end [of the age],” essentially the same deeds, in the same sequence, will be committed by Daniel 11:40-45ʼs King of the North, and also by Godʼs people: 1) Lawlessness and Apostasy: of the Jewish people and priests, beginning in the latter 170s B.C., and likewise of both Judaism and the Church in the Latter Days. 2) An invasion of Egypt, followed by a furious return to the Holy Land. 3) An Abomination of Desolation being set up. 4) Persecution of and flight/escape of Godʼs people to the wilderness. 1) The former time of apostasy, sin, and lawlessness committed by Godʼs priests and people began in the latter 170s B.C., when – 1 Macc. 1:11 In those days lawless men came forth from Israel and misled many… 13 …to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. 14 So they…abandoned the holy covenant. Dan. 8:12 Because of transgression [Heb. pesha: rebellion, sin; LXX: amartia/sin] an army was given [Antiochus] against the daily [Temple service], and he cast down truth to the ground; and he practiced, and prospered. 1 Macc. 2:15 …the kingʼs officers…were enforcing the apostasy [Gr. apostasia]… The latter days will provide the same pattern of events: Dan. 11:41 [The King of the North] shall enter the Glorious Land, and many shall stumble/be enfeebled/be overthrown… 2 Thess. 2:1 …the Day of Christ will not come… 3 …unless the apostasy [Gr. apostasia] comes first, and the man of sin [Gr. amartia] is revealed, the Son of Perdition… Matt. 24:11 And many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And…lawlessness will abound… 2) After the initial corruption of faith, an invasion of Egypt follows: 1 Macc. 1:29 Two years later [in 168 B.C.]… 2 Macc. 5:1 …Antiochus made his second invasion of Egypt. Dan. 11:29 At the appointed time he shall return and go into the South; but it shall not be like the former [time, when he plundered Egypt], or like the latter/last. The Latter Day invasion, unlike the former, will be successful: Dan. 11:42 He shall stretch out his hand against lands, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 And he shall have dominion over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt… 3) Following an angry return by the King of the North from Egypt to the land of Israel, he causes an Abomination of Desolation to be set up in Jerusalem: Dan. 11:30 …and he shall return and be enraged against the holy covenant… 31 …they shall place the abomination of desolation. 1 Macc. 1:54 Now on the 15th day of Chislev in the 145th year [~Dec. 16, 168 B.C.], they erected a desolating sacrilege [likely an idol of Zeus] upon the altar of burnt offering. A Latter Day abomination is likewise prophesied: Dan. 11:44 …he shall go out [of the south] with great fury… 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain… 12:11 …and an abomination of desolation [will be] set up… Matt. 24:15 …you [shall] see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place… 2 Thes. 2:3 …the man of sin [shall] be revealed, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the naos/sanctuary/holy place of God, exhibiting himself that he is a god. 4) Immediately following this culminating act of apostasy, a great persecution of Godʼs people begins, and they flee into the wilderness: 1 Macc. 1:41 …the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, 42 and that each should give up his customs. … 53 …they drove [the faithful of] Israel into hiding in every place of refuge they had. … 2:15 Then the kingʼs officers who were enforcing the apostasy [Gr. apostasia] came to Modein to make them offer sacrifice. … 19 But Mattathias answered and said in a loud voice… 22 “We will not obey the kingʼs words by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left. … 27 Let everyone who is zealous for the law and supports the covenant come out with me!” 28 And he and his sons fled to the hills and left all that they had in the city. 29 Then many who were seeking righteousness and justice went down to the wilderness to dwell there… Dan. 11:32 Those who [did] wickedly against the covenant [Antiochus] corrupt[ed] with flattery; but the people knowing their God [were] strong, and acted so. 33 …yet for many days they [were] enfeeble[d] by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. A Latter Day persecution and flight is likewise prophesied: Dan. 12:1 …And there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall escape/be delivered… Matt. 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you… 16 …then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. … 21 For then there will be [the] Great Tribulation, such has not been from the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor shall be. Rev. 12:1 Then the Woman fled into the wilderness… At this point, the significant acts of the King of the North against Godʼs people, both past and present, come to an end. Antiochus never returned to Judah, nor was directly involved there. He left to campaign in the east, and thereafter failed to capture the wealthy city of Elymais in Persia. Then, 1 Macc. 6:7 [Hearing] that [the Jews] had torn down the abomination which he had erected upon the altar in Jerusalem… 8 …he was astounded and badly shaken. He took to his bed and became sick from grief, because things had not turned out for him as he had planned. … 16 Thus Antiochus the king died there… Of the Latter Day King of the North, Daniel prophesies that, after he sets himself up – Dan. 11:45 …at the glorious holy mountain…he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 2 Thes. 2:8 …the Lord will consume [him] with the spirit of His mouth, and bring [him] to nought with the brightness of His Coming. For more information about this person, see my blog, The Son of Perdition Is a Patsy. The prophecy of Daniel 12:11-12 about the 1290- and 1335-day periods of this era will be discussed in the next blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 hours ago, WilliamL said: Not necessarily. Many would say that the 6th head of the Beast that was present then is still present. Most of the Western democracies are founded largely upon Roman law. Likewise, the legs of Daniel 2's image, which most people believe to be Romanism, was to last until the coming of the Messiah. Who is it that can restrain evil? I would suggest that there is only one can do that. Government and authorities may have a part to some degree but it is the Holy Spirit that hinders/restrains evil. Romanism, they were wrong about that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,132 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,858 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2020 the restrainer isn't restraining evil, he is restraining an entity called the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction. when i look around i see evil all over everywhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 hours ago, WilliamL said: You are misquoting the passage and inserting your own meaning into it. William, seriously? What is the title of your thread? On my screen it says, "Are the US and Trump the ones restraining?" Furthermore, you insert irrelevant information to create an argument I never made because your OP is definitively flawed at the foundation, which I exposed. Instead of making false claims about what I say, how about showing me where in our conversation I quoted any scripture for you to falsely state that I misquoted what does not appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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