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Posted
5 hours ago, Sister said:

R.Hartono

Maybe you should ask God why he's letting Satan out after the 1000 years?

and why he said the following, if it's true or just plain funny?

 

Revelation 20:2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

Revelation 20:7   And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8   And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Are u going to bury ashes ? ?????✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️


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Posted
4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Are u going to bury ashes ? ?????✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️

R.Hartono

You cannot answer the question, and dodge it by going back to the ashes now.  Don't you want to know the truth for yourself?

If you want the truth, go back to the drawing board.  Go back to those scriptures I showed you and that will answer your first question.  You obviously find the written Word very funny.  I cannot take you seriously anymore.


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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sister said:

R.Hartono

You cannot answer the question, and dodge it by going back to the ashes now.  Don't you want to know the truth for yourself?

If you want the truth, go back to the drawing board.  Go back to those scriptures I showed you and that will answer your first question.  You obviously find the written Word very funny.  I cannot take you seriously anymore.

Hallo Sister,

In the 1st GOG & MAGOG war, Israel had been gathered from nations after the Hollocaust, remember their independence day in 1948.

Ezekiel 38:8...........They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

So its not possible to happen after the Millennium of one thousand years because Israel will not be scattered anymore when Jesus rule from Jerusalem. What wud you say ?

Peace....

 

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Posted
15 hours ago, Serving said:

Diaste,

Just consider that which you admitted to Sister for a moment, that is, this :

That was concerning how the Gog & Magog war actually begins after the millennium is up, that is, 1000 years plus however long the whole Gog & Magog scenario takes. (good on you btw for your honesty/humility there, I respect that)

It was a good point, an idea I never considered. It may indeed take a bit of time. It could take many months in fact, or even years as we reckon time. Not that time exists after the millennium, but that's another discussion.

I agree there is a Gog war after the millennium. It would be foolish to deny it since it's written quite plainly. So yes a big war after the millennium involving Gog.

 

15 hours ago, Serving said:

Now expand your critical thinking for a possible answer for yourself .. perhaps, perhaps God really will have a true final generation, that is, the day will come where God will shut the wombs of every woman on the planet, seeing the predetermined number of humans is reached (surely there is going to be a cap of sorts on how many people God determined would be born before the end of ends comes), and this final generation must age to a point of God's liking before the end itself?

Maybe God is even giving that last generation of children a final chance too?

If so, that too can "take some time".

I have heard of this before. A similar theme is a limited number of souls. Billions of course, but finite. When the last soul is put in flesh the end comes. True or not I don't know. Lots of things I don't know.

You could be right but I don't know if I see that or not. I have been of the mind it's a set of conditions which reach a crescendo much like antediluvian times: messing with the gene pool, evil usurping every thought, etc. The things I hear about cloning, transhumanism, demons masquerading as ETs, etc., support that. To me the terminal generation grows evil and rebellious to unmanageable conditions. Have you looked around the world lately? The evil stuff that keeps coming to light is shocking. We're like a bomb waiting to explode.

15 hours ago, Serving said:

He does after all declare, "That the heathen may know". The "Heathen" being those of the nations on whom no rain falls, that is, the rebel nations who reject the Lord, those same nations from whence the armies of Gog & Magog are sourced. That is, this group/confederacy :

Ezekiel 38

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Sure. Two bits of evidence here for me are 'latter years' and the cabal of nations.

15 hours ago, Serving said:

Diaste, you admitted to something that didn't occur to you, and no insult, but it was something pretty obvious that you missed, and you only missed it because your doctrine (on this subject that is) had no room for it nor even considered it, that is, those who made the doctrine you are agreeing with made a mistake, they failed to acknowledge a simple yet critical fact.  

Obvious or not it was more a function of not giving the subject time and effort focusing on other things. My main focus has always been the return of Jesus. There is a great deal of study to be done there and that really takes quite a bit of focus; 2000 plus years and we still can't agree on that. :) Typically I only use gathered info to hear other points of view as a starting place. I don't really adhere to doctrine emanating from mankind. But on this particular topic I have gone back and forth; one war or two? The idea of one or two Gog wars would not necessarily hinge on the time it takes to gather armies.

15 hours ago, Serving said:

So all I ask is this .. ask yourself, what else was "missed" ?

There is still room for more input, perhaps you can add to the possibilities that those doctrine makers missed, those who did you that disservice !! 

Well, we don't know what we don't know, do we? I open to any possibility as long as it makes sense and doesn't cross certain lines.

15 hours ago, Serving said:

What I've highlighted above is the only duality I can perceive in Ezekiel's chpts 38 & 39. 

You men the duality of the cabal of nations?

15 hours ago, Serving said:

And it does not speak of them attacking anything pre millennial, but speaks of them guarding each other from everybody else (likely doctrinally & physically) until the day comes where they will attack, that being post millenial, that is, in "the latter years" at the very end of ends.

Meaning, yes, the nations of that future army exist now, and they will band together during the millennium, and when the time comes, when Satan is released, after the millennium is up, then they attack. Not before, but after the millennium.

A point here; if no evidence exists a factual conclusion cannot be reached, it's just speculation. I'm good with that but it just has to be acknowledged.

As a philosophical point: It's fact there is going to be a great battle in the valley of decision. The armies of earth are gathered there, Jesus appears, touches down on the Mount of Olives, the people left in Jerusalem flee to safety in the newly created valley and God wages war against the combined strength of the armies so gathered in the valley of Jehoshaphat. This is all the armies of the world; "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." - Rev 16:14

This is literally the same thing as; "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about" - Rev 20:8-9

The former at Armageddon, the latter after the millennium. It cannot be denied there are two great campaigns by the kings of the earth against the Most High God and Jesus Christ. The dispute is whether this similarity is tied to Gog of Magog and Ezekiel 38-39. There is this;

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." - Rev 20:3 

He had been deceiving the nations and that is stopped until, "the thousand years should be fulfilled:" Then; "Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog," This is Gog and Magog and nothing saying it was not Gog and Magog and the same nations that Satan, "should deceive...no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" Same deception, same Satan, same nations; those similarities are stark enough for me to conclude two wars, both involving the deception of Gog of Magog by Satan.

A list of striking similarity that I cannot ignore:

"For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken"- Eze 38

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" - Rev 6

" Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence," - Eze 38

Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" - Rev 6

"and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground." -Eze 38 

" and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." -Rev 6

"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found" - Rev 16

And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone." - Eze 38

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." - Rev 16

Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD." -Eze 39

"saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." - Rev 19

All before the Millennium. Too many similarities to discount that indeed there is a Gog of Magog action against Jesus and Jerusalem at Armageddon. None of the above is recorded in Rev 20 concerning the Gog Magog war after the millennium. That doesn't prove anything but in my mind the above similarities between Eze 38-39 and The Revelation prove there are two Gog wars, simultaneously refuting the idea of only one.

15 hours ago, Serving said:

Gotta stop myself from going on a tangent, but do you get where I am coming from?

 

I do. Nothing is out of line and as I said before it's been ongoing that I see one or two Gog campaigns. Two is what I'm convinced of at the moment.


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Posted

This may be a repeat. 

Another consideration is that once again the wording/translation is what causes misunderstandings in this case. This is what I mean:

In the O.T Gog and Magog are meant to be specifically identified. In Revelation they are not. Instead, they are from everywhere on the planet! So to keep it short, I have thought for some time that the reference to Gog and Magog should have had one more italicized word so it would look like this, "...like Gog and Magog..." This would clear up the question for me.

I will post again soon about the weapons etc.


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Posted

Uriah

I have been on repeat for years, like a scratchy record!

We have to realise first that Gog is a man.  He will die in the open field.  Gog is not Satan, but in some cases, when God speaks to Gog, he is speaking to Satan because Satan is the one behind him, driving him to do his will.

Secondly, the False Prophet's name has not been revealed, the man being used leading up to the Coming, in the first war, whereas that other man Satan will chose in that last era, his name has been revealed, and we know his name is Gog ......and Magog is the name of his armies.


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Posted
14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Hallo Sister,

In the 1st GOG & MAGOG war, Israel had been gathered from nations after the Hollocaust, remember their independence day in 1948.

Ezekiel 38:8...........They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

So its not possible to happen after the Millennium of one thousand years because Israel will not be scattered anymore when Jesus rule from Jerusalem. What wud you say ?

Peace....

Hi R. Hartono

Since 1948, Israel have always been at the threat of war, which is why they have borders and many troops to keep guard, and advanced intelligence, and weaponry, and nations and churches sending them money.

And if we follow what many of the prophets said in the OT, Israel in this era will end with war.  First the kings of the North will come and take Jerusalem and Israel for themselves (which is the beast).  Then at the 6th trumpet, the Kings of the East will cross over into Israel through the dried up River Euphrates, causing a big battle for even more nations to come in and war.  So they are not free of war. 

Only Jesus, the Prince of Peace, can bring peace to Israel, and when he does, Israel will dwell safely, and they will have no need for weapons, nor for armies, nor for walls, bars or gates because Christ will be that wall of protection.  Israel will be only going about the Lord's business then, dwelling in peace and real security.

Since 1948, Israel have their own land back yes, but most of them are still scattered throughout the earth.  During the millennium they will all be brought back into their land, and that is the only time they have truly been delivered from the sword.

After the thousand years, when they get attacked, Gog's armies surround their city, and are killed before entering.  They do not get in the city, and do what they did a thousand years before.

 


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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Sister said:

  During the millennium they will all be brought back into their land, and that is the only time they have truly been delivered from the sword.

 

 

What kind of sword threat them in millennium ? Nations will live in peace n beat their sword into plowshares. There is no need to run away from enemies wherever they live. Isaiah 2:they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks

It was a different situation with this present age, the jews need to return because of the Holocaust by Hitler n they need to establish an independent nation in 1948 as prophesied in the Bible so the prophecy has been fulfilled alrdy. Regardless not all jews are willing to live in Israel because they hv business n comfort in US and Europe. THE JEWS CAN ALWAYS RETURN ANY MOMENT NOW TO ISRAEL IF THEY WANT TO ! Why wait till the Millennium ? Your theory is absurd.

This prophecy has been fulfilled in 1948 :

Ezekiel 38:8...........They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. (they have strong army to protect their independence from all enemies for 72 years)

You should not deny the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Peace,...

Edited by R. Hartono

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Posted
18 hours ago, Diaste said:

A point here; if no evidence exists a factual conclusion cannot be reached, it's just speculation. I'm good with that but it just has to be acknowledged.

Acknowledged

Quote

 

As a philosophical point: It's fact there is going to be a great battle in the valley of decision. The armies of earth are gathered there, Jesus appears, touches down on the Mount of Olives, the people left in Jerusalem flee to safety in the newly created valley and God wages war against the combined strength of the armies so gathered in the valley of Jehoshaphat. This is all the armies of the world; "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." - Rev 16:14

This is literally the same thing as; "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about" - Rev 20:8-9

The former at Armageddon, the latter after the millennium. It cannot be denied there are two great campaigns by the kings of the earth against the Most High God and Jesus Christ. The dispute is whether this similarity is tied to Gog of Magog and Ezekiel 38-39.

 

Agreed, pre millenial and post millennial .. two events sharing similarities. 

Quote

 

There is this;

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." - Rev 20:3 

He had been deceiving the nations and that is stopped until, "the thousand years should be fulfilled:" Then; "Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog," This is Gog and Magog and nothing saying it was not Gog and Magog and the same nations that Satan, "should deceive...no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" Same deception, same Satan, same nations; those similarities are stark enough for me to conclude two wars, both involving the deception of Gog of Magog by Satan.

 

Agreed .. two events, each separated with the millennium smack bang in between them both.

Thus have you stated that there are indeed two events, and that these two events share similarities within the execution of God's wrath.

Meaning, there are similarities, but they are not the same event .. this is what you are admitting here .. and so far, yes .. I agree.

Quote

A list of striking similarity that I cannot ignore:

Okay, lets do this .. but remember, you already pointed out that these two events share similarities .. they are different events, but they share similarities .. meaning, similarities are just that, mere similarities. 

Quote

 

"For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken"- Eze 38

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" - Rev 6

 

Similar .. but there are many instances where scriptures not only mention the word wrath, but also where God indeed executes His wrath, and they can be found all throughout the OT, many, many times .. and all of them invoked for related reasons, that being sin related, but all of them executed within unrelated time periods and for specific reasons affecting unrelated generations of peoples. 

A simple search of the word "wrath" in a bible word search will show that .. I'm sure I don't need to give you examples though, you should already know this.

Thus, with that in mind, wouldn't we need to be more specific before considering those two examples as evidence?

You see, the first quote just states that God executed His wrath, even though we know the context that it relates to, I acknowledge that, but .. it is still just a statement of action .. the statement itself is non specific, instead, we need to read the chapter for the specificity  

And when we do that, we find this specific declaration within the chain of unbroken discourse :

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Now we can argue the statement "latter years", true .. but consider this insight within the same chapter 38 :

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Can't we presume from that interesting statement that it wasn't until Gog neared the vicinity of Israel that those thoughts of attacking the camp of the saints entered his mind?

Meaning, it was not planned that way from the outset? But came about as a consequence of his warring by mere vicinity of said target in relation to his army at that time?

Yet ..

The first war, pre millennium, is planned .. even before the entering into Israel's lands and by extension returning en mass for the Armageddon "outbreak" !!

One insurgency is pre planned .. yet the other is stated as a compulsive reaction only coming into this leader's mind during his campaign .. that is, thinking on his feet as the saying goes.

So when seeking context, instead of finding matches, we find two distinct differences dealing with military tactics !!

Differences that should not be there if it were speaking of the same event .. 

That's my small take dealing with the first declaration of wrath you quoted.

The second however,  the second quote you provided is specific, "The great day of His wrath" .. we've all read that specific wording before right? And we all immediately know what He is speaking of without even looking for context. And as I pointed out, one battle deals with pre planned invasion/occupation/preparedness .. the other is an utterly compulsive decision made on the fly.

Conclusion : one statement is generalised, one is specific

One context is pre-planned, one is compulsive.

These are opposite mind sets/plans taking place within two events sharing similarities .. but besides similarities, we've also discovered two contradictions .. that is, two different reasons for attacking Israel.

Almost as though they were two different events after all.

Something you already admitted to ..

So i'd have to disagree that this is a valid match tying the two together, instead I found discrepancies.

Before, or even if needed, getting into your other similarities, can I leave this with you to ponder on?

Because I also acknowledge that we all need time to weigh these things up, and i'm in no rush. 

Leave it with you bro.


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Posted
1 hour ago, Serving said:

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Can't we presume from that interesting statement that it wasn't until Gog neared the vicinity of Israel that those thoughts of attacking the camp of the saints entered his mind?

Meaning, it was not planned that way from the outset? But came about as a consequence of his warring by mere vicinity of said target in relation to his army at that time?

 

This seemed to throw a wrench in the works for me from time to time, especially verse 11. I always thought the only time Israel could be "at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates," was in the millennium ergo, this action by Gog is the one from Rev 20. I don't know about the planned or unplanned nature of the action. At this point it doesn't feel relevant or substantial. In Rev 20 the express purpose of Satan is to go out and deceive the nations to assemble them to battle; "and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle."

That being said nothing in the verses above demand this exist in the millennium and in fact Eze 38:8 speaks to the time frame: " After a long time you will be summoned. In the latter years you will enter a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and all now dwell securely."

This describes Israel now and the circumstances under which she was reborn. No doubt this leads pretrib to conclude a Gog action before the 70th week begins. IWe should remember the driving force behind all this on both sides is an eternal entity, one good and one evil. Maybe Gog didn't plan any of it but the nations were indeed deceived by the evil eternal entity, who did plan it all.

There is nothing here, "This is what the Lord GOD says: On that day, thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will devise an evil plan. You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will come against a tranquil people who dwell securely, all of them living without walls or bars or gates" that gives any indication of time or location. The decision here by Gog is based on information the enemy is both rich and weak and feeling secure. That thought could come to him in his palace over morning coffee or afternoon croquet. 

1 hour ago, Serving said:

Okay, lets do this .. but remember, you already pointed out that these two events share similarities .. they are different events, but they share similarities .. meaning, similarities are just that, mere similarities. 

Similarities are important. They are how security forces catch perps and convict them the world over. As an example the FBI Behavioral Science Unit uses similarities to build profiles to catch criminals. The early work they did on serial killers is nothing short of genius and they use the collected knowledge to build a profile, in which they have great success, and is used by LE all over the world. 

In planning military actions information is gleaned from the past and applied to similar situations the army will face to enhance the chance of success.

No, they are not 'mere similarities' they are important clues of identification. If enough similarities exist it's the same thing. Like symptoms of a physical ailment show what the Dr. is dealing with so similarities in this show more than relationship; it's the same.

2 hours ago, Serving said:

Agreed .. two events, each separated with the millennium smack bang in between them both.

Thus have you stated that there are indeed two events, and that these two events share similarities within the execution of God's wrath.

Meaning, there are similarities, but they are not the same event .. this is what you are admitting here .. and so far, yes .. I agree.

Yes to the first.

To the second, no. There is a striking disparity of similarity between Rev 20 and Eze 38-39, at the same a great deal of similarity between Eze 38-39 and Rev 16:17-20, Rev 6:12-17 and Rev 11:19.

The conclusion then is Eze 38-39 is speaking to Armageddon at the end of the week and the Rev 20 wrath of God in consuming fire is only described in Rev 20 and is completely separate from Eze 38-39 and Armageddon.

Last I'm admitting no such thing. Eze 38-39 is the detail in the lead up to gathering the armies into the valley at Armageddon and the enticement is the weakness of Israel.

My position is: Ezekiel 38 is the battle at Armageddon and is not the Rev 20 Gog action. Until more information may serve to change my mind.

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