The First Trumpet

[Diaste]

On 7/6/2020 at 3:42 PM, WilliamL said:

A lot of folks here state that since Revelation's 7th Trumpet is the LAST trumpet mentioned in the Bible, therefore, it must be "the last trumpet" that Paul was referring to in 1 Cor. 15:52, when he equated it with time of the Parousia and resurrection of the dead.

It's certainly not illogical. We see 7 trumps. We see the 1st trump and we see the 7th trump. This is an ordered series of trumps, sounded in order from first to last. These trumps are associated with the end of the age and Jesus return. The last trump in 1 Cor 15 is also associated with the end of the age and Jesus return. That the last trump in 1 Cor 15 is the 7th and last trump of Revelation is the simplest solution and satisfyingly harmonious.

On 7/6/2020 at 3:42 PM, WilliamL said:

Just to note that this logic can also be equally applied to the FIRST trumpet/shofar mentioned in the Bible, which took place when YHWH descended upon Mount Sinai. And that certainly does not equate to the first trumpet of Revelation.

Not sure I understand. Are you saying the legend of the lesser shofar does NOT equate to the 1st trump, but the  legend of the greater shofar DOES equate to the last trump in 1 Cor 15? And that this proves the 7th Trump of Rev cannot be the last trump of 1 Cor?

On 7/6/2020 at 3:42 PM, WilliamL said:

The case for the latter view is found here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

Both views cannot be true. I say that there is much better evidence for the latter view, because there is no evidence to support the belief that Paul knew anything about the 7 trumpets of the Revelation that Christ later showed to John. But he certainly knew about the first shofar of God's Judgment that took place on Sinai.

Not sure how there can be better evidence for one when there is no evidence for the other. This apparent lack of evidence is not proof of anything.

But I think there is abundant evidence for the idea Paul knew all about it and was indeed referring to the 7th trump of Revelation 11 in 1 Cor 15. 

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - 1 Cor 15

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." - 1 Thess 4

"For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." - 1 Thess 5

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed" - 2 Thess 2

The bold sections are information not contained in the Olivet Discourse. This is a great deal of information about the coming of the Lord and the gathering. Paul didn't imagine this and he didn't get from the OT. This knowledge was gained from the moment of conversion on the Damascus road and/or in the time Paul spent with the apostles; unless there is evidence the parousia and harpazo are both in the OT in the detail Paul presents in the letters to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. If Paul knew/learned all of the above about Jesus coming, the rise of the beast and the gathering, then it's certain Paul was informed of the last trump of Revelation as well.

[Uriah]

22 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

So how do u explain why the 4th trumpet darkened the sun but the 4th vial scorched mankind with tremendous heat ? How cud it happened at the same time n not on a linear time line ?

Hi again R. Hartono,

Glad you asked! (I wrote about this in my Ebook) Let me start with the verses in. question.

Rev. 8:12- And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Rev. 16:8- And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Already we see a common connection, lie the Euphrates river mentioned twice (sixth trumpet, sixth vial) etc.

In the first verse above, a third of the day is darkened. This is attributed to the cloud of debris from the 8:8 asteroid impact being having been ejected right out into space. When the most dense part of it is orbiting in the opposite direction of the planet's rotation it will block out the sun while passing between the planet and the sun. While on the night side of earth, it will reflect more than the moon and begin to glow, making it almost as bright as daytime. The counter-rotation will make the timing of it match the 1/3 of the day/night scenario. 

The cloud, having a large amount of potash from the ocean floor, will also leave a trail behind it that will interact with the magnetic field of the earth to become electrically energized. To a degree, this area of the "bow shock" portion  or "cusp" of the magnetic field is already in this condition. The electrochemical reaction that will take place is known for its use in a "thermal energy cell" Water (vaporized from the ocean) plus potash, plus electricity equals intense heat. An exotic chemical "fire" above the planet will certainly scorch people, regardless of sunlight making it through to produce daylight. 

[R. Hartono]

5 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi again R. Hartono,

Glad you asked! (I wrote about this in my Ebook) Let me start with the verses in. question.

Rev. 8:12- And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Rev. 16:8- And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Already we see a common connection, lie the Euphrates river mentioned twice (sixth trumpet, sixth vial) etc.

In the first verse above, a third of the day is darkened. This is attributed to the cloud of debris from the 8:8 asteroid impact being having been ejected right out into space. When the most dense part of it is orbiting in the opposite direction of the planet's rotation it will block out the sun while passing between the planet and the sun. While on the night side of earth, it will reflect more than the moon and begin to glow, making it almost as bright as daytime. The counter-rotation will make the timing of it match the 1/3 of the day/night scenario. 

The cloud, having a large amount of potash from the ocean floor, will also leave a trail behind it that will interact with the magnetic field of the earth to become electrically energized. To a degree, this area of the "bow shock" portion  or "cusp" of the magnetic field is already in this condition. The electrochemical reaction that will take place is known for its use in a "thermal energy cell" Water (vaporized from the ocean) plus potash, plus electricity equals intense heat. An exotic chemical "fire" above the planet will certainly scorch people, regardless of sunlight making it through to produce daylight. 

If that scorching heat of the sun is caused by the asteroid of 8:8 then theres no need to pour the 4th vial, doesnt it ?

Edited July 10, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Uriah]

9 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

If that scorching heat of the sun is caused by the asteroid of 8:8 then theres no need to pour the 4th vial, doesnt it ?

Not sure I understand your point. It is the angel that initiates this action. Without him there would be no scorching/chemical reaction etc.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Uriah
Add sentence

[R. Hartono]

1 minute ago, Uriah said:

Not sure I understaqnd your point.

 

You said the darkening of the sun is caused by asteroid 8:8 n that also caused the scorching of mankind with the heat, in that case what is the use of pouring the 4th vial as mankind already scorched by the chain reaction of the asteroid 8:8.

[Uriah]

55 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

You said the darkening of the sun is caused by asteroid 8:8 n that also caused the scorching of mankind with the heat, in that case what is the use of pouring the 4th vial as mankind already scorched by the chain reaction of the asteroid 8:8.

Made an edit as I had been pondering your post before you replied.

[WilliamL]

This has been such an illuminating Rorschach test.

[Wayne Murray]

Wow ! No further comment.