Is faith a work ?

[Alive]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Bottom of the previous page, in the middle of the post that begins, "I wish I had the time to respond in detail to all that you said...."

I saw where you quoted it, but not the original.

We got a report on it and I had to read through the entire thread--maybe I missed it somehow.

It would be a great help, if someone could tell me which thread page.

To clarify:

Non-trinitarian views are against the statement of faith.

https://worthyministries.com/statement-of-faith/

and such discussions are supposed to be limited to a non-conformist area

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/forum/221-non-conformist-theology/

The reporting mechanism is a great tool that helps us keep things as they should be, here.

 

[Alive]

18 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

The Doctrine of the Trinity is completely false.

@Faithwilldo

This is against the statement of faith here at Worthy.

Found here.

https://worthyministries.com/statement-of-faith/

Any discussion contrary should be discussed in the non-conformist area below.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/forum/221-non-conformist-theology/

Please restrict such discussion to that area.

[Alive]

Thanks Justin and Josheb.

[Guest theElect777]

20 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

There are no perfect translations but that is not what I am talking about here.  

As for the symbol "Lake of Fire".  It is a place of Christ's judgment upon the lost.  There He will teach them righteousness and use the Elect (the Bride) to take them to the narrow path that leads to Christ:

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

 

 

This is the first to encounter this viewpoint here "As for the symbol "Lake of Fire".  It is a place of Christ's judgment upon the lost.  There He will teach them righteousness and use the Elect (the Bride) to take them to the narrow path that leads to Christ:"

 

So no one is actually not Saved, it's just after they go from this life to the next it will be a teaching point so they can get back onto the right path?

 

May I ask what your specific beliefs are, Denomination association, who else teaches these same views?

Edited July 14, 2020 by theElect777

[Alive]

10 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I just did. It's on page 3 of this op. In my browser it is the third post before the end of the page, and it begins with the statement, "I wish I had the time to respond in detail to all that you said." Link to the specific post is: 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/255457-is-faith-a-work/?do=findComment&comment=3240938

 

I will gladly report the post and ask the op be moved to the appropriate board.

THe OP is fine--just that post. Thanks again for your help.

Lots of reports are issued and sometimes it takes a while to figure out what is going on with lots of reading.

:-)

 

[Faithwilldo]

2 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

This is the first to encounter this viewpoint here "As for the symbol "Lake of Fire".  It is a place of Christ's judgment upon the lost.  There He will teach them righteousness and use the Elect (the Bride) to take them to the narrow path that leads to Christ:"

So no one is actually not Saved, it's just after they go from this life to the next it will be a teaching point so they can get back onto the right path?

May I ask what your specifically beliefs are, Denomination association, who else teaches these same views?

My conversion testimony is in my profile.  It will explain a lot of my background.  I have not associated with any denomination or church of any kind since I was converted in 2005.  At that time, I heard Christ's call to "come out" from the great harlot:

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The verses below are some of the reasons why Christ calls out His Elect:

Matt 13:33  Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Acts 20:29  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Salvation for All:

The book of Revelation is written in physical symbols that represent spiritual truths.  It's true meaning is concealed to all but Christ's Elect and only then after they have been converted and given "eyes and ears".  Most readers believe that the book is a mix of symbols and literal statements.  However, all the teaching in the book is symbolic.  The Lake of Fire is no exception.  The Lake of Fire is an "aionian" (for the age only) place of Christ's judgment.  It is on the "new earth" (also a symbol) and there is no literal fire there.  Christ would never do such a thing to anyone - not even His enemies.  Christ's judgment is not like man's judgment.  When He judges us (and it starts now with the Elect), it is for the purpose of teaching us righteousness. 

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Peter 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Christ established two pathways (first the broad path, then the narrow path) that the Elect must travel to arrive at salvation.  The remaining "lost" during the final age will eventually travel the same two pathways for their salvation.  The pathways include destruction & judgment of our Old Man.  That destruction is spiritual, not physical.  Our carnal nature must be destroyed.  It is the "inside of the cup" that Christ must clean. 

The Elect are saved now in the present age and will be given the blessing of ruling and reigning with Christ in the final age to bring in the full harvest of mankind.  The Elect are only the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.  No one will be lost.  He is the Savior of mankind.  Here are a few verses for you to consider:

1John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 5:15  But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.  (Darby)

Rom 5:18-19  so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.  For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. 

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In this verse below, "fire" is used in the same manner as the symbol "Lake of Fire".  Those that "suffer loss" are the ones who are judged in the "Lake of Fire".  They lose the blessings of the First Fruits but they will still be saved in the end.

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The verses below teach what happens at the very end of the final age. 

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

At the very end of the final age, God will be "all in all" and eternity starts.  At that time, all mankind will be fully made into the image of God the Father.  Christ's reign over mankind will also come to an end because it is no longer necessary. 

2Pet 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.    

Since the Lord is not willing that "any should perish", then who can stop Him?  Certainly not mankind.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If you have any further interest in this subject, please go to my profile and read some of my recent posts.  If you then have any questions, please ask.  I love helping others see the truth of Christ.

Joe

[Sower]

6 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

I certainly have never said that we don't make choices.  We certainly make choices everyday.  The cause behind the choices we make though is God.  We cannot act independently from God.  

  The cause behind the choices we make though is God.  We cannot act independently from God.  

If that's true, who sins? Me, or God.
God is the one that enables me to righteousness.
But, I choose to righteousness, or unrighteousness.
And I receive the reward, or suffer the punishment.
This is basic milk Christianity, 101.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous"

Go ahead and tell me what that really means, Faithwilldo.......

 

 

 

 

 

[Faithwilldo]

1 minute ago, Josheb said:

Irrelevant. Today you have openly and unabashedly, adversarially denied the deity of Christ. By doing so the covenant made with the forum and its members was broken. Those are the facts in evidence. Were I a moderator I would be more direct and call it what it is.  

Enormously inconsistent, ironic, avoidant and self-promoting. 

 

There are three questions already existing in this thread that have yet to be answered and addressed. They sit unanswered in direct contradiction to the statement, "If you have any questions, please ask." 

I did. 

Still waiting. 

You sound very offended by my recent statements.  It was not my intent but it does happen frequently when I present scripture that contradicts what someone believes.  

Of course, Jesus Christ is our God.  He is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior.  Someday all mankind will be like Christ and we will also be called sons of God.  That does not mean Christ is not our deity.  He is.  He is the God of the Old and New Testaments.  He is the One who met with Moses at the burning bush and upon the mountain when the Law was given to him.  You assume way to much when you read my statements.  

As for the three questions, I did answer them very thoroughly with scripture.  You just did not agree with my answers.  

Since this conversation with you is not of any benefit to you at present, I don't see any reason to continue it.  Christ simply has not made you ready to receive my words.

Joe 

[Faithwilldo]

23 minutes ago, Sower said:

  The cause behind the choices we make though is God.  We cannot act independently from God.  

If that's true, who sins? Me, or God.
God is the one that enables me to righteousness.
But, I choose to righteousness, or unrighteousness.
And I receive the reward, or suffer the punishment.
This is basic milk Christianity, 101.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous"

Go ahead and tell me what that really means, Faithwilldo.......

 

 

 

 

 

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Nothing you can do will save you.  Christ does all the work.  If we needed to add to His work, then Christ would consider us self-righteous and reject us.

Also, God does not sin or tempt anyone but He does use evil for His good purposes. 

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things (includes evil) work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Isa 45:5-7  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1 Sam 16:14  But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Judg 9:23  Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

Amos 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isa 54:16  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Ecc 1:13  An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Ecc 7:13  Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Prov 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Lam 3:38   Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Job 2:10   But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Joe

 

[Guest theElect777]

3 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

My conversion testimony is in my profile.  It will explain a lot of my background.  I have not associated with any denomination or church of any kind since I was converted in 2005.  At that time, I heard Christ's call to "come out" from the great harlot:

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The verses below are some of the reasons why Christ calls out His Elect:

Matt 13:33  Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Acts 20:29  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Salvation for All:

The book of Revelation is written in physical symbols that represent spiritual truths.  It's true meaning is concealed to all but Christ's Elect and only then after they have been converted and given "eyes and ears".  Most readers believe that the book is a mix of symbols and literal statements.  However, all the teaching in the book is symbolic.  The Lake of Fire is no exception.  The Lake of Fire is an "aionian" (for the age only) place of Christ's judgment.  It is on the "new earth" (also a symbol) and there is no literal fire there.  Christ would never do such a thing to anyone - not even His enemies.  Christ's judgment is not like man's judgment.  When He judges us (and it starts now with the Elect), it is for the purpose of teaching us righteousness. 

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Peter 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Christ established two pathways (first the broad path, then the narrow path) that the Elect must travel to arrive at salvation.  The remaining "lost" during the final age will eventually travel the same two pathways for their salvation.  The pathways include destruction & judgment of our Old Man.  That destruction is spiritual, not physical.  Our carnal nature must be destroyed.  It is the "inside of the cup" that Christ must clean. 

The Elect are saved now in the present age and will be given the blessing of ruling and reigning with Christ in the final age to bring in the full harvest of mankind.  The Elect are only the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.  No one will be lost.  He is the Savior of mankind.  Here are a few verses for you to consider:

1John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 5:15  But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.  (Darby)

Rom 5:18-19  so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.  For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. 

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In this verse below, "fire" is used in the same manner as the symbol "Lake of Fire".  Those that "suffer loss" are the ones who are judged in the "Lake of Fire".  They lose the blessings of the First Fruits but they will still be saved in the end.

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The verses below teach what happens at the very end of the final age. 

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

At the very end of the final age, God will be "all in all" and eternity starts.  At that time, all mankind will be fully made into the image of God the Father.  Christ's reign over mankind will also come to an end because it is no longer necessary. 

2Pet 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.    

Since the Lord is not willing that "any should perish", then who can stop Him?  Certainly not mankind.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If you have any further interest in this subject, please go to my profile and read some of my recent posts.  If you then have any questions, please ask.  I love helping others see the truth of Christ.

Joe

The majority of what we read in Bible concerning Hell deals with the grave our physical bodies are buried in.   Peter does speak of a place where the "Fallen Angels" who took human wives and produced Nephilim and are now being kept chained and locked into complete darkness until they are tossed into the Lake of Fire.   I have no issue with not believing in a physical Hell but would have to deny the Lazarus/rich man story, and where Christ took the keys from Satan.   But the Lake of Fire is a setting where we see all of the major players of Evil ending up including Death and the Grave.   If we add those who chose to DENY God, we have the complete final Judgement setting.   So let's look at something specific here.

 

God has given humanity since Adam a chance to follow Him.   Indeed He chose a specific people, the Hebrews, but when we read the Old Testament these Hebrews were always discussing their God to those who were masters of them, to those who were friends of them, to those who the Hebrews conquered.   We read Books like Ruth, Rahab and others who were able to convert to Yahweh.   Even at the time of Christ we see Gentiles who were converted to the Law of Moses.   And then Christ sent out His own Disciples to the unknown world (where we read Paul comes into play).   Even the past 2,000 years we have had access to the Gospel.   So God has always kept a way for everyone to accept Him and become one of His.   This is why it is difficult to accept your understanding of the Lake of Fire view.   I did look up Smith's Bible Truth's and it is a 50/50 yes/no if I find his interpretations to be spot on.

 

I just do not see anywhere in the Bible that tells me those who do end up in the Lake of Fire are getting another chance.   And as far as the Muslim boy, they believe Christ is a Prophet just like Mohammed.   They know what the Jews believe because they are mortal enemies.   The Muslims actually hold Christ to a more esteem than the majority of the Jews do.  And there are many converted Muslims to Christianity.   So I would imagine this young boy is well aware of both sides.   They are taught from a very young age and are extremely knowledgeable about Christianity.

 

I wish you the best.   It's good to hear from God.   But it was Christ Himself who showed John the vision of Revelation's.  It's hard for me to believe He would go against His own Word for this new idealism.

Edited July 14, 2020 by theElect777